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Harmony Gold V. Weisman & Pgi



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#741 Horseman

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 06:38 AM

View PostVoras, on 21 August 2017 - 05:05 AM, said:

Even though, my comment targets earlier discussion here, I think people need to be more careful with the phrase 'PGI's mech design looks quite similar to the Robotech version'.

In design or copyright claims, similarities need to be very specific. Just because the overall design looks rather similar to the original one, even other armor layouts, arm and leg shapes, as well as differently designed launcher bays can have a huge impact on the question if some design is a design infringement or not.

Most design patents (e.g. Apple vs. Samsung case) are deliberately extensive, so that a large number of deviations from the original design are covered.

However, the original Macross designs (and thus the Robotech claims by HG) are artworks with copyright claims and not design patents with technical drawings, defining the design.

Thus, designs created by PGI need to be very close to the original designs for copyright infringement.

From a technical point of view, they are definetely not that similar anymore. Some arbitrary design parallels like 'has two legs, two gun barrel arms, and a missile launcher on the right shoulder' are not even close.

So, all in all, I wouldn't be that concerned about these claims, even if HG can somehow keep the co-copyright to the designs.

However, you guys in the US still have to cope with a jury in court that is not neccessarily expert in the field. So, in the end, HBS/PGI need a good and convincing lawyer.

Sometimes I wish, these copyright claims would be filed at a German court. There, I would not be concerned at all about the result. Posted Image

FASA's case against Playmates failed precisely because of, quote, "numerous key design differences outweighing any general similarities in the designs"
http://web.archive.o...Playmates3.html

View PostAlan Davion, on 23 August 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

Now CGL, who are backed by TOPPS, the trading card company, is easily 10 times the monster that Hasbro is, and if things get far enough, I imagine TOPPS could literally bury HG.
CGL's parent company has apparently defaulted: https://www.unitedst...al/wawd/242820/

Quote

ORDER signed by Clerk William M. McCool granting 39 Motion for Default by Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc. Default entered against InMediaRes Productions, LLC. (KD) (Entered: 06/28/2017)


#742 PheonixStorm

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 01:14 AM

An update for those who haven't been following.

HBS and PGI have filed a motion to dismiss
HG fired its old lawyers and hired a new bunch
New lawyers are trying to amend original complaint now that the Tatsunoko arbitration case is known and being used against them.
HBS and PGI are (as far as I can tell) trying to get that amendment to the original complaint tossed.

Case still ongoing, though decent bit of activity over the past month.

Edited by PheonixStorm, 05 December 2017 - 01:15 AM.


#743 C E Dwyer

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 03:03 AM

Thanks for the update

#744 Lily from animove

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 04:03 AM

View PostPheonixStorm, on 05 December 2017 - 01:14 AM, said:

An update for those who haven't been following.

HBS and PGI have filed a motion to dismiss
HG fired its old lawyers and hired a new bunch
New lawyers are trying to amend original complaint now that the Tatsunoko arbitration case is known and being used against them.
HBS and PGI are (as far as I can tell) trying to get that amendment to the original complaint tossed.

Case still ongoing, though decent bit of activity over the past month.


care to explain that further or got some links about it?

edit, ok i foudn this int he net

https://www.animeher...across-in-2021/
so basicalyl HG won the stuff. I guess they need to get a ral big fish going until 2021 so that someoen jas a financial interets to give them the rights back for some time.

Edited by Lily from animove, 05 December 2017 - 04:18 AM.


#745 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 04:21 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 05 December 2017 - 04:03 AM, said:


care to explain that further or got some links about it?

edit, ok i foudn this int he net

https://www.animeher...across-in-2021/
so basicalyl HG won the stuff. I guess they need to get a ral big fish going until 2021 so that someoen jas a financial interets to give them the rights back for some time.


Read this one: https://www.pcgamesn...nt-harmony-gold

#746 PheonixStorm

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 05:31 PM

The arbitration just goes into exactly what HG has and doesn't have. Which does not include the 41 Macross designs (mecha, character, and space ships). Those HG cannot claim to own the copyright to. In a nutshell anyway. It confirms an older case that Big West brought against Tatsunoko a long while ago in which there was a fight over who actually owned said images, which Big West won and HG never acknowledged.

With that not being a part of HGs license agreement it has come back to bite them. Needless to say it does not appear HG will be keeping the arrangement past 2021 due to Tatsunokos irritation with them. Who knows though, maybe HG will work out a new deal but I doubt it will be as favorable for HG but I highly doubt it considering the popularity of anime in the US these days.

#747 MischiefSC

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:18 AM

The only truth to come out of Robotech was that Roy Fokker was a BA, and Rick Hunter was a total pansy until he dumped Minmei.

Roy Fokker.

He was like the Hans Davion of Robotech, only totally different.

But still a BA.

#748 PheonixStorm

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:19 PM

This showed up on the HBS forums. It's... rather brutal. https://imgur.com/a/gNLpK

What this means for the case is anyone's guess, but just reading over this... I would hate to be HG about now. I can't wait until Leonard French does an update on this (please do please do please do).

#749 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 11:30 PM

View PostPheonixStorm, on 07 December 2017 - 11:19 PM, said:

This showed up on the HBS forums. It's... rather brutal. https://imgur.com/a/gNLpK

What this means for the case is anyone's guess, but just reading over this... I would hate to be HG about now. I can't wait until Leonard French does an update on this (please do please do please do).


Damn. The wording is brutal. I love it.

Edit:

Basically, PGI's law team is citing two legal reasons to ignore HG attempt to stay the motion to dismiss. Basically, pointing out that HG knew they had no right to the items in question well in advance and that they intentionally mislead the court by initially claiming they did so. They are also claiming that HG's attempt to stay the dismissal does not actually combat the root of the PGI claim: that HG has no right to sue in the first place.

I need some popcorn....

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 07 December 2017 - 11:47 PM.


#750 Trenchbird

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 05:03 AM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 07 December 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

I need some popcorn....

Mind passing some, once you get it? I only have Hot Chocolate.

#751 WarHippy

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 08:27 AM

View PostPheonixStorm, on 07 December 2017 - 11:19 PM, said:

This showed up on the HBS forums. It's... rather brutal. https://imgur.com/a/gNLpK

What this means for the case is anyone's guess, but just reading over this... I would hate to be HG about now. I can't wait until Leonard French does an update on this (please do please do please do).

Certainly an interesting read. Should PGI/HBS succeed with this argument I have to wonder what happens if Big West the sues for PGI/HBS for infringement? Has a deal been worked out with Big West, or do they not care?

#752 Mole

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 08:57 AM

I swear if PGI kicks HG to the curb I will buy whatever 'mechpack is up for sale when the verdict comes in.

#753 Darrious Quinn

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 09:31 AM

Page 8 , Lines 16 - 24... total turn on.... never loved reading a legal document as much as this!!!

#754 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 09:36 AM

View PostMole, on 08 December 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

I swear if PGI kicks HG to the curb I will buy whatever 'mechpack is up for sale when the verdict comes in.


At this point, they've already earned at least one. Nobody has taken HG to task like PGI has, so far, outside of Hasbro.

#755 Trenchbird

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 11:20 AM

I find it interesting how you never see many of PGI's detractors shouting at them over how bad they are in this thread.

Interestingly, I find this to be one of the only decisions PGI's ever made that seems universally well-accepted.

#756 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 11:46 AM

I just hope this doesn't just read nice to us laymechwarriors, but also means something in court. But if it does, kudos to PGI and its lawyer(s).

#757 Mole

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 11:56 AM

View PostCatten Hart, on 08 December 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

I find it interesting how you never see many of PGI's detractors shouting at them over how bad they are in this thread.

Interestingly, I find this to be one of the only decisions PGI's ever made that seems universally well-accepted.


Battletech fans cannot agree on whether or not the matchmaker is good. They cannot agree on balance. They cannot agree on clans vs. IS. They cannot agree on maps. They cannot agree on anything except one thing. The one subject that all battletech and mechwarrior fans are universally on the same page on is the fact that Harmony Gold has been trying to destroy our beloved franchise for decades with frivilous lawsuits and the world would be better off in HG just died in a car fire.

Edited by Mole, 08 December 2017 - 11:57 AM.


#758 MischiefSC

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:24 PM

View PostCatten Hart, on 08 December 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

I find it interesting how you never see many of PGI's detractors shouting at them over how bad they are in this thread.

Interestingly, I find this to be one of the only decisions PGI's ever made that seems universally well-accepted.


Look, I've been playing MWO since it first went to open beta. Like the week that happened. My forum account I started in January of 2013. I have 12,602 matches in QP just in this account and I have 3 total. Over that time I've developed opinions on things, strong opinions that I feel have been tested and can be statistically justified. There have also been promises made that didn't get kept and things that I felt would make the game better than would have been possible that PGI didn't deliver on. There's a number of things I'm frustrated about.

However, I'm still playing because the core of the game is great. The function of gameplay, the basics of it, are something you can't get anywhere else or in any other game and it's awesome. The feel of Battletech, the stuff about it I enjoy, is also here. I voice my frustration because I'm comfortable doing so and I know from experience that PGI tries to deliver on a good game - they have limitations both in context of resources and people and opportunity costs and at heart I understand that even if I disagree on priorities but I really do NOT doubt that the bulk of people at PGI are invested in and even passionate about the game. I doubt it's everything they wanted either.

However I think everyone, the players and PGI and anyone else who knows anything about Battletech even knows that Harmony Gold is a miserable bunch of lying ******** and I hope everyone of them goes to their graves feeling like they failed at life.

I hope MechCon goes amazing. I hope everyone there has a great time. I hope all the best for the people at PGI do well, are happy with the results of MWO and I hope MW5 does incredible. I hope it's a credit to their careers.

I also hope we get some better IS/Clan balance, that every 'but clans are supposed to be OP' munchkin goes to sleep disappointed and I hope that at some point we get the depth and complexity to FW that we were originally promised - even if that's in a remastered, post-MW5 version.

However I hope that because I'll almost certainly still be here, playing the game, because it's a good game and PGI, even if they make the cardinal mistake of not doing what I want all the time, seems to be good people.

Oh, and serious. **** Harmony Gold. I hope the suit fails, they don't get the money they need and they can't get their kids what they wanted for Christmas - both because kids need to learn good coping skills while they're young and everyone at Harmony Gold needs to feel like a crushing failure.

#759 Mole

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:32 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 08 December 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

Oh, and serious. **** Harmony Gold. I hope the suit fails, they don't get the money they need and they can't get their kids what they wanted for Christmas - both because kids need to learn good coping skills while they're young and everyone at Harmony Gold needs to feel like a crushing failure.


Quoted for emphasis

#760 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:36 PM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 08 December 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

I just hope this doesn't just read nice to us laymechwarriors, but also means something in court. But if it does, kudos to PGI and its lawyer(s).


Having been following Leondard French on various other cases... and working through the legal documents on other cases, while I AM NOT A LAWYER, I can say that, this doesn't look good for HG.

Now, the running idea was that, the arbitration would have no real bearing on this case, because Arbitration holds no legal standing in court... HOWEVER what apparently sealed this in favor of PGI/HBS, is that HG went to court to have the arbitration officiated... and it was found they don't have the rights to the designs they are suing over.


Now, maybe, there's some legal mumbo jumbo that HG's lawyers can work through [well their new lawyers, I still find it funny they pulled an Alex Mauer and fired their first team] that swings things around on PGI, but at this point, I don't think there is... their best bet at this point would be to file their own motion for dismissal. Still I don't think they will, they are buckling down for the fight...

And I think, finally, HG will have met their match.





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