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4Hmg Against Lights/meds Is Legit?


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#1 Xoco

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:18 PM

I got to thinking that 4HMG works put to just about 5.5dps. With Med/Light mechs sporting under 40 armor on each limb, that means you can conceivably core a limb in 8 seconds, then the HMG crits should vaporize the structure in no time.
I tested this out today in my Urbie against a small laser Cheeto. He got my gun arm to red by the time I chopped his left arm clean off, and cored his LT and CT in the process (I have crap aim). So I think it should be very serviceable as a way to hunt Lights and Mediums. Any thoughts?

#2 Fox With A Shotgun

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:29 PM

View PostXoco, on 01 August 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

I got to thinking that 4HMG works put to just about 5.5dps. With Med/Light mechs sporting under 40 armor on each limb, that means you can conceivably core a limb in 8 seconds, then the HMG crits should vaporize the structure in no time.
I tested this out today in my Urbie against a small laser Cheeto. He got my gun arm to red by the time I chopped his left arm clean off, and cored his LT and CT in the process (I have crap aim). So I think it should be very serviceable as a way to hunt Lights and Mediums. Any thoughts?


It certainly is a good way to hunt lights and mediums. Try using a Viper with micro pulses and HMG and hunt down some enemy lights. You shred them really, really fast.

#3 Shalune

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 08:01 AM

I haven't used HMGs much, so I can't speak to their effectiveness. But as a huge fan of LMGs it is worth considering the following:

- HMG ammo per ton: 1,000, LMG ammo per ton: 2,500 - Both have the same rate of fire

- LMGs weigh half as much

#4 BTGbullseye

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 08:23 PM

View PostShalune, on 02 August 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

I haven't used HMGs much, so I can't speak to their effectiveness. But as a huge fan of LMGs it is worth considering the following:

- HMG ammo per ton: 1,000, LMG ammo per ton: 2,500 - Both have the same rate of fire

- LMGs weigh half as much

LMGs also do half the damage of HMGs... If you don't have a LOT of ballistics slots, you'll probably do more damage with the HMG if you can get close.

#5 PaquIS

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 10:06 PM

View PostBTGbullseye, on 02 August 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

LMGs also do half the damage of HMGs... If you don't have a LOT of ballistics slots, you'll probably do more damage with the HMG if you can get close.

Its not all about the damage. The crit rate on the LMG's is crazy good and you can destroy all equipment on exposed component in seconds. Plus you can do it from a safe distance, 250+ meters away.

HMG's only work on fast mechs because of their very low ~90 meter range. So far the only mech I think they are worth taking from the IS side is the Ember. 4 HMG's with the 25% machine gun rof quirk = 5 HMG's.

Haven't tested them much on the clan side so far.

#6 BTGbullseye

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 10:09 PM

The problem with that is that it is so low of a DPS that it takes too long to get through the armor... If you're extremely lucky and get someone already armorless, then it might be useful, but being able to get through armor in a reasonable timeframe is a better idea for long-term viability of the Mech.

#7 The Basilisk

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 11:22 PM

View PostXoco, on 01 August 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

I got to thinking that 4HMG works put to just about 5.5dps. With Med/Light mechs sporting under 40 armor on each limb, that means you can conceivably core a limb in 8 seconds, then the HMG crits should vaporize the structure in no time.
I tested this out today in my Urbie against a small laser Cheeto. He got my gun arm to red by the time I chopped his left arm clean off, and cored his LT and CT in the process (I have crap aim). So I think it should be very serviceable as a way to hunt Lights and Mediums. Any thoughts?


HMGs spread too much and you literaly do 5.5 dps. That means to get 5.5dmg you need to hold the MGs steady on target for a second. That is actually a REALY crappy burntime when compared to any laser.
If you want to hunt lights or meds use either SPLs or MPLs for short dmg bursts to single lightly armored components.
I actually do think that HMGs are the worst kind of MGs due to their short range and lack of bonus critchance.
LMGs on the other hand are cool suplemental weapons with bonus crit and a decent range.

Edited by The Basilisk, 02 August 2017 - 11:23 PM.


#8 PaquIS

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 11:53 PM

View PostBTGbullseye, on 02 August 2017 - 10:09 PM, said:

The problem with that is that it is so low of a DPS that it takes too long to get through the armor... If you're extremely lucky and get someone already armorless, then it might be useful, but being able to get through armor in a reasonable timeframe is a better idea for long-term viability of the Mech.

All machine guns are bad against armor. HMG can somewhat deal with armor, but even then you need plenty of them, you have to be within 90 meters of your target and it uses the ammo fast. Thats why you first take off the armor from a component with other weapons and use the crazy critical rate of a machine gun to take out the said component.

Also finding targets without armor happens on every game when it gets to the later stage of the round.

#9 BTGbullseye

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 12:43 AM

View PostPaquIS, on 02 August 2017 - 11:53 PM, said:

Also finding targets without armor happens on every game when it gets to the later stage of the round.

Building a Mech to sit around and wait until the end of the match to do anything worthwhile is a bad idea in general.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 03 August 2017 - 12:44 AM.


#10 PaquIS

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 12:59 AM

View PostBTGbullseye, on 03 August 2017 - 12:43 AM, said:

Building a Mech to sit around and wait until the end of the match to do anything worthwhile is a bad idea in general.

Ok this is getting bit sidetracked here, but of course you would never build your mech to have most of its power from machine guns..

#11 Ronald McDonald

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 11:07 PM

Mg based Mechs:
Spider - 4lmg + 1erll = nice
Urbie - 4hmg + 2erml = nice
Bj Arrow - 6lmg + 2erll = nice
Shadowcat - 7hmg + 1hll = nice (lmg or normal mg till maxed range nodes)

Edited by Ronald McDonald, 13 August 2017 - 11:46 PM.


#12 The Basilisk

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 11:32 PM

View PostRonald McDonald, on 13 August 2017 - 11:07 PM, said:

Mg based Mechs:
Spider - 4lmg + 1erll = nice
Urbie - 4hmg + 2erml = nice
Bj Arrow - 6lmg + 2erll = nice
Shadowcat - 7hmg + 1hll = nice


Try the Arrow with one LPL, 2 ERM and its 6 LMG. Better heat management, more damage output and more concentrated firepower.Posted Image

#13 Ronald McDonald

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 11:44 PM

Yeah sounds good but I lack skill for longer brawling. Snipe then go in for the Kill is the way it works best with the arrow for my playstyle.

#14 Ronald McDonald

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 12:53 AM

Add:
8x lmg + 1x hml cheetah = fun (or 6mg 2hml)
6x lmg + 6?x serl lynx = fun

#15 CraneArmy

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 02:17 AM

View PostShalune, on 02 August 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

I haven't used HMGs much, so I can't speak to their effectiveness. But as a huge fan of LMGs it is worth considering the following:

- HMG ammo per ton: 1,000, LMG ammo per ton: 2,500 - Both have the same rate of fire

- LMGs weigh half as much


I've found these things to be very important when considering hmg's
it's often safe to take about:
3 lmg's per ton of ammo
2 mg's per ton
1 hmg per ton.

so if you are looking to fill hardpoints
1 hmg costs about 2 tons
1 mg costs about a ton
1 lmg costs a little under a ton if you have multiple ballisitic hardpoints for *mg's

combine that with the extremely limited range of hmg's you are looking at a non-starter on most mechs,
Often, mechs that can move quickly enough to close to effective hmg range cant afford the extreme tonnage hit, and most mechs that can afford the tonnage cant move into range often enough to make the critslot / tonnage / facetime cost well spent.

almost always, the range of lmg's or the moderate damage std mg's are preferable to hmg's

you're not wrong OP, the damage potential is there, the problem is applying it efficiently. 1 ton of savings moving from hmg to lmg / mg is critical on most mechs, when you could be talking about an extra heatsink, extra medium laser or bumping a medium to a medium pulse... 1 ton makes a ton of a difference in this game.

pun intended

There are certain mechs which may not follow the same rules because of a quirky layout that tends to excess tonnage or heat or whatever on mechs that didnt quite have a niche pre-civil war. Someone mentioned the viper which has always seemed to be mediocre (I havent tried it) and might work better with hmg's, or the ember.
But... if you want to try a *mg build, I would personally try to find a way to make mg's or lmg's work first, and only then, if you are finding mg's or lmg's work but you are often within 100m* when you use them successfully, and also have extra weight to burn (by cutting engine, arm / head / leg armor, removing heatsinks etc...) then you might try hmg's.


There also seems to be a misunderstanding of how critting works among all players (proceeding statements are not to be excluded). I am not sure it has ever been well explained by pgi, so this last part is not to be taken as a guide....

My understanding is that crit damage is not increased structure damage as seems to be reflected by OP (although that may be a separate function of machine guns I do not know). Crit damage is simply damage to components that occupy critical slots and also have their own health separate to structure. Crit damage is still added in the AAR report generated by the game included in the *damage number. But that is not extra damage that contributed to killing the mech (by degrading its armor or structure) and thus can be somewhat misleading. Machine guns, according to everything I have read, should degrade structure at the same rate they degrade armor.

#16 Aldodrem

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 04:38 PM

I run regular MG on my Locust builds because the required weight of the HMG + ammo isn't an option for me unless I want to run out of ammo, esp on the 1V. I messed around with them on the 3V by dropping the ML down to SML so I could support the additional tonnage of the HMG but it wasn't doing as good as the pair of MG pair of ML back build so I reverted.

#17 Xoco

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 11:24 PM

View PostPaquIS, on 03 August 2017 - 12:59 AM, said:

Ok this is getting bit sidetracked here, but of course you would never build your mech to have most of its power from machine guns..

I have great success this past few weeks with 4HMG , 2 Flamers Urbie.
Most builds in the game run decently hot, especially on Medium and Light mechs (they have lower heat threshold). Just gotta shut them down while blasting their leg (on Lights with lots of lasers, they would be shutdown by the 2nd volley unless they blow cool shots. They always lose a leg by the time they start back up (4hmg is instant crit on cored parts). And once legged, it is super easy target.
My main issue right now is having enough ammo-I have 5 tons right now, and I don't have nearly enough for the whole match.

Edited by Xoco, 06 September 2017 - 08:20 AM.


#18 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 10:30 AM

You'll definitely need some pulse lasers to pair with those machine guns if you're hunting lights up close. The machine guns will spread around the light mech's components due to its spread and the small size of a light mech, rather than doing 5.5 damage to one single component you'd likely be spreading it over all components.

A group of small pulse lasers could open up the armor so that the machine guns could tear into structure while you're cooling off from the laser bursts.


Still, I just bring out dual ERPPC when I'm going light hunting.

#19 Kitty Bacon

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 10:40 AM

I have yet to get MGs to work right for some reason... But then again I take an all missile Bushwacker out and scare lights off lol

BSW-1P (Kitty Kat) I know, LRMs and streaks, don't seem like a mech that would perform well..... But, I have had some good games in it. Streaks are still one of the best ways to scare off light besides giving them 2 AC20s to the CT.

#20 Daggett

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 12:54 PM

View PostCraneArmy, on 27 August 2017 - 02:17 AM, said:

My understanding is that crit damage is not increased structure damage as seems to be reflected by OP (although that may be a separate function of machine guns I do not know). Crit damage is simply damage to components that occupy critical slots and also have their own health separate to structure. Crit damage is still added in the AAR report generated by the game included in the *damage number. But that is not extra damage that contributed to killing the mech (by degrading its armor or structure) and thus can be somewhat misleading. Machine guns, according to everything I have read, should degrade structure at the same rate they degrade armor.


This one can be verified easily in the testing grounds:
  • Take a MLX with 8 normal MGs and at least one small pulse laser.
  • Go behind the Atlas in Crimson
  • Peel of it's 28 rear CT armor with your small pulse laser(s)
  • Then fire all 8 MGs at the open CT. It will take about 4.5s to destroy the atlas.
  • Notice that 8 Mgs do 8 dps which should need 7,75s if crits would not apply to structure
So in conclusion normal MGs do about 72% additional damage to structure than to armor. Posted Image
You can of cause test this with other mechs and less MGs too, i just took the MLX to speed up testing...





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