22 replies to this topic

[PUFNSTUF]

If I want to do rotary ac5's/2's or ac5's/2s which mech would be best? they both have torso mounts, but one is on one side. Both have structure or armor buffs.

Any ideas? Thanks!!

[Void Angel]

Well, while I don't have a Bushwhacker yet, the Shadow Hawk's mounts are very high - that's a big consideration. It also has jump jets, which isn't much of a direct consideration for RACs, yet still increases your options for firing points.

The Bushwhacker, on the other hand, has somewhat more scattered and lower hardpoints, with no jump jets - but it also has slightly larger durability quirks, and they're armor quirks. This means - since armor quirks are more effective up to ~60 tons anyway - that the Bushwhacker is much more difficult to crack than the Shadowhawk once you've gone deep into the Survival tree, which is important for RAC use, since those guns are unavoidably stare-based weapons.

So it really boils down to how you plan to use the RACs. Are you looking to out-slug the enemy in direct combat, or do you intend to support the front-line brawlers from just behind the front lines - where the enemy can't afford to pay as much attention to you and you can hammer at will? The Shadowhawk will give you better close-support results, while the Bushwhacker will be better for direct combat.

[PaquIS]

You do need lots of facetime to deliver your damage so a mech with good front profile and hitboxes is the key here. Bushwacker has just that. Very slim and tight center and sidetorsos when you are facing directly at the enemy making it hard to hit a specific component.

You also need a mech which is fairly mobile so you can find angles to shoot and reposition/escape if the RAC's jam or you hit your heat limit. Not to mention the fact you can only fire two RAC's at a time without hitting ghost heat. So for these reasons I think the Bushwacker is the only mech in the game where the RAC's really work.

Especially the P2 variant when you place the RAC's on side torsos so they are located right below the cockpit very close to one another. LFE270, 2xRAC5 (4 tons of ammo), 2xML and a heatsink is the build I like to use on it. Strip armor from the arms and little bit from the legs to make it all fit.

Also dont bother with RAC2. You still need the same amount of facetime, but you wont be dealing any meaningfull damage in the process.

Shadowhawk is at its best when you have a loadout where you can deal your damage fast (AC's, SRM's, LBX) and then twist to use its slim sideprofile and great shield arms. So dont use RAC's on it, you are way too easy to take out when you are just staring at the enemy.

[Koniving]

You know, I don't have much love for the Shadowhawk but I gotta say... Shadow Hawk.

I don't know what it is about the Bush but it really hasn't done it for me. Loved it in MW3, owned the toy.

But for some reason the one in MWO I just can't get it to work for me. And I could get almost anything to work for me.

[PUFNSTUF]

PaquIS, on 12 August 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

You do need lots of facetime to deliver your damage so a mech with good front profile and hitboxes is the key here. Bushwacker has just that. Very slim and tight center and sidetorsos when you are facing directly at the enemy making it hard to hit a specific component.

You also need a mech which is fairly mobile so you can find angles to shoot and reposition/escape if the RAC's jam or you hit your heat limit. Not to mention the fact you can only fire two RAC's at a time without hitting ghost heat. So for these reasons I think the Bushwacker is the only mech in the game where the RAC's really work.

Especially the P2 variant when you place the RAC's on side torsos so they are located right below the cockpit very close to one another. LFE270, 2xRAC5 (4 tons of ammo), 2xML and a heatsink is the build I like to use on it. Strip armor from the arms and little bit from the legs to make it all fit.

Also dont bother with RAC2. You still need the same amount of facetime, but you wont be dealing any meaningfull damage in the process.

Shadowhawk is at its best when you have a loadout where you can deal your damage fast (AC's, SRM's, LBX) and then twist to use its slim sideprofile and great shield arms. So dont use RAC's on it, you are way too easy to take out when you are just staring at the enemy.

Actually ended up doing this exact build like you said, threw on a targetting comp lvl1 as well. First game did 950 or so damage haha. Loving it so far.

[PaquIS]

PUFNSTUF, on 12 August 2017 - 10:40 PM, said:

Actually ended up doing this exact build like you said, threw on a targetting comp lvl1 as well. First game did 950 or so damage haha. Loving it so far.

Good choise.
I would drop the TC1 tho and replace it with heatsink. I mean is it really worth using one ton for 3% extra projectile speed and 1% critical chance?

[PUFNSTUF]

PaquIS, on 13 August 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

Good choise.
I would drop the TC1 tho and replace it with heatsink. I mean is it really worth using one ton for 3% extra projectile speed and 1% critical chance?

I also like it for the faster targeting info. With skills put into heat efficiency I find I'm not really running too hot, I have to wait for the cool down on the RACs to not jam anyways so that gives some cool down time. Doesn't hurt to try the extra heat sink though.

[PaquIS]

PUFNSTUF, on 13 August 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

I also like it for the faster targeting info. With skills put into heat efficiency I find I'm not really running too hot, I have to wait for the cool down on the RACs to not jam anyways so that gives some cool down time. Doesn't hurt to try the extra heat sink though.

Dont stop shooting once the "jam" bar hits full and then wait for it to cool off. Just ignore it for the most part and just shoot until you either jam or hit your heat limit. With a little bit of luck you can keep shooting non stop without jams until you go from 0 heat to 99%. Those are the cases where the RAC's can really dish out some good damage.

Even in a situation where you just hit your heat limit and both RAC's jam, the RAC's will unjam while you are still at 50-60% heat. Thats where the extra heat sink will help. Just to cool off bit faster and being able to start spamming again. I have all heat gen nodes unlocked and 6% cool run nodes from the operations tree. On top of it I also have dual coolshots. And I still think the build is pretty damn hot on heat neutral or hot maps.

The extra speed for target info is more important on laser vomit, PPC or gauss rifle builds so you can shoot the weak component faster. But for RAC's it takes time to spool up and get your damage going so you will get the info fast enough for it. Plus you should always aim for the enemy cockpit for the extra blinding effect anyways until you see if they have any weak points.

[Metus regem]

PUFNSTUF, on 11 August 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

If I want to do rotary ac5's/2's or ac5's/2s which mech would be best? they both have torso mounts, but one is on one side. Both have structure or armor buffs.

Any ideas? Thanks!!

Hi Pufnstuf,

I've got both, and both are very different animals really.

The Shadowhawk is a striker and flanker type mech, that means that it shines in a role where mobilty is important, this is a game play type that really doesn't work well with RAC/s (Rotary Auto Cannons), that being said, it really does work well with normal AC/s and UAC/s.


The Bushwacker is a flanker, second line fire support, cavalry and trooper mech. This means that it shines when the role where you need to be as flexable as possible. This is again an area that RAC/s do not work well with, like the Shadow Hawk the Bushwacker shines with AC/s and UAC/s. But the real secret to make the Bushwacker shine is to learn the Cavalry mech play-style, this means running in one direction, looking in a second direction and shooting in a third direction.


Now about RAC/s, RAC/s are a weapon system that needs time spent looking at your target, this is something that light, medium and some heavies are just not built for, RAC/s also shine when you can mount several of them. Generally speaking how ever a RAC/5 is every way inferior to a UAC/5 in actual game play.

That all being said, these are two units I use in actual game play, with my preference to the Bushwacker as she fits more with how I like to play.

SHD-2D2

BSW-X2

[Void Angel]

Ehh, I use my Shadow Hawk as a Scouting mode brawler.

[Kitty Bacon]

Bushwacker. Nice slender, low profile when running ballistics with huge arms you can shield with. I sometimes run the X2 or P2 with 2 Mlas and 2 RAC 5s or 2 LB10s. You can, ofcorse, run 2 AC10s with 2 Mlas and that is pretty fun. they are on the nose and just below the cockpit so if you can see em, you can smack em!


Plus the armor quirks on the Bushwacker is very nice. Can have the same armor as a 65 ton mech or so. you lack JJs but, don't need em in the Bushy.

Another thing you can do with the Bushy is run a mini Atlas. AC20, LFE, 2 SRM4s and 2 Mlas. Hits like a truck!

This one is my current fav <3 So fun!

Edited by Kitty Bacon, 19 August 2017 - 12:08 PM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Gotta say bushwacker.

Reason is the Shadowhawk's ballistic sidetorso.
They have been around for a long time and almost everyone know that, if you spot a SHD with ballistics it's the left Torso.
Light engine won't help if you lose that left torso because you're neutered if it pops.
Bushwacker with ballistic on the other hand could be on the left or right torso or the right arm, or nicely spread.
Surviability and actual combat capability is a lot better in a bushwacker.

[Void Angel]

That's why you put an SRM battery in the other torso. =) But that won't help with a ballistic boating build like the OP wants here.

[Hastur Azargo]

Koniving, on 12 August 2017 - 07:50 PM, said:

You know, I don't have much love for the Shadowhawk but I gotta say... Shadow Hawk.

I don't know what it is about the Bush but it really hasn't done it for me. Loved it in MW3, owned the toy.

But for some reason the one in MWO I just can't get it to work for me. And I could get almost anything to work for me.

Really? That's strange to hear from Kon. I gotta say that a Bushwacker with ASRMs and machineguns is one of my most favorite mechs post skilltree. Deep investments in survival and mobility tree produce a mech that handles like a Jenner, is armored like a Marauder and packs some serous punch. It's an absolutely brutal backstabber that can facetank it's wounded victims until they're dead. Wonderful mech.

On topic: I think 55-tonners are a bit too small for twin RAC5s, that setup would work better on a Marauder or a Roughneck, but of these two, Bushy is a clear winner. As people already said, you need facetime for RACs, and Bushy has that. Shadowhawk is too tall and has very meager structure quirks, which means it goes down fast once it's being shot at. It's good for poptarting, but not much else.

[Koniving]

I'll give the Bushies another chance.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 21 August 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

I'll give the Bushies another chance.

Kon, the trick to the Bushies is knowing how to be flexible, never over commit, never under commit...

To pull from WH40k, to make the most of the Bushwacker I've found you have to be a what is called a "water warrior".

Quote

Unlike the other elements, Water fights reactively, responding to the plan of the enemy. Whereas the other elements try to "inflict" their plan upon the enemy, Water has no plan other than to defeat the enemy's plan. Good Water armies use well rounded, generalist troops

Spoiler

http://www.bolterand...-water-warrior/

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 21 August 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

Kon, the trick to the Bushies is knowing how to be flexible, never over commit, never under commit...

I'm sure you already know I'm quite adept at that.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 21 August 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

I'm sure you already know I'm quite adept at that.

Very true, perhaps the Bushwhacker just isn't compatible with you? I know I'm not compatible with Storm Crows, I just can't make them work no matter how hard I try....

[Koniving]

I haven't invested much time or experimentation into them, I confess. I tried three or four build ideas and then abandoned them because...

...I had several other mechs that were also untouched, so I went to them.

[Hastur Azargo]

Koniving, on 21 August 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

I haven't invested much time or experimentation into them, I confess. I tried three or four build ideas and then abandoned them because...

...I had several other mechs that were also untouched, so I went to them.

I'm sure they're gonna be fun. Here's what I'm talking about: BSW-X1

You can go X2 if you want a couple of MLs in the mix, and you can switch MGs for LMGs if that makes more sense. It runs very cool, which means you can forego Operations tree and coolshots. Invest deeply in Survival and Mobility, and you'll still have plenty of points to go into Cooldown in Weapons. I also use seismic which helps better track victims, but that's optional. It facilitates a very aggressive "hunting" playstyle, where you actively sneak up on victims that are either damaged or alone and out of position or just busy shooting someone else. Discovering that they're being backstabbed by a tough as nails 55-tonner instead of some light causes them to visibly panic. One obvious limitation is range, but it doesn't mean you lack initiative because you're still fast and you still can get to places where you're not expected and force engagement onto your targets on your own terms. Also, unlike other MG boat lights and mediums, this one actually has enough firepower to punch holes in enemy armor by itself before crit-killing them.

In 39 games this mech has killed 61 mechs with only 25 deaths, and it's rare for me to play that many games in the same mech. A better pilot would surely make even more of this baby. Oh and it also goes first drop in FP to milk all of those juicy Mad-IICs that clanners bring as first wave.