227 replies to this topic

[KeeningBanshee]

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 12:15 AM, said:

It's normally 2 or 3 good players on each side, and if winning is a priority, then it's better for those players to stay alive longer to deal more damage. It's admirable to be in the front and aggressive, and personally more fun, but it doesn't net as many victories as hanging back and using potatoes as bait. So which is the "good" player, the one who dies early or the one who wins the match for the team?

When I Solo Kill 2 Assaults and KMDD 1 Heavy before I fall in an Assualt... then I did more than the coward (good) player hiding in the back (course that is what happened in a Match today with the other Assault player talking about what a great player he is cause he is 30th on the Leaderboards by Wins, yet is ranked literally +14,000th by Match Score)!!!!! Heck most times I probably would not even have to fall if I was being supported properly from the outset but that is the problem of players who are bad being unable to recognize their glaring failures while still grinding up to Tier 2 in 2 months of play even with negative WLR & KDR both seasons he has been playing (+1000 games last season & +700 games this season).

Edited by KeeningBanshee, 25 September 2017 - 12:43 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 12:15 AM, said:

It's normally 2 or 3 good players on each side, and if winning is a priority, then it's better for those players to stay alive longer to deal more damage. It's admirable to be in the front and aggressive, and personally more fun, but it doesn't net as many victories as hanging back and using potatoes as bait. So which is the "good" player, the one who dies early or the one who wins the match for the team?

And again if the end result of expectation in a good game (again, a good game by the definition that everyone played well and that it came down to the wire in the final moments), is that 20 or 22 out of 24 die, you are delusional to think that it should always be you (at best you will get streaks where you are one of the survivors) left alive, namely because that would mean you are not doing the same task as the rest of your team, not risking yourself in the same way, and again always expecting to be the victor or considering a death/loss on your end to be bad play.

I can certainly admit that in good team tactics there are roles MUCH more likely to be one of the survivors, but again that doesn't make that player better at his role than a teammate whose role is generally much riskier etc.

[adamts01]

Shifty McSwift, on 25 September 2017 - 12:35 AM, said:

Well see you have already positioned your argument from the context of a "bad game", if only 2 or 3 out of 12 actually have the skill/equipment to make a difference then you have a game with 9 or 10 potatoes on one team...

Almost correct, 9 or 10 potatoes on EACH team. It can still be a great fight, as long as the potatoes clump together a little, because if they spread out on one team and not the other then you get mashed potatoes.

Shifty McSwift, on 25 September 2017 - 12:42 AM, said:

And again if the end result of expectation in a good game (again, a good game by the definition that everyone played well and that it came down to the wire in the final moments), is that 20 or 22 out of 24 die, you are delusional to think that it should always be you (at best you will get streaks where you are one of the survivors) left alive

In a perfect world I wouldn't care on my death order. But we're a mixed bunch of skill aren't we.

[adamts01]

Shifty McSwift, on 25 September 2017 - 12:42 AM, said:

doesn't make that player better at his role than a teammate whose role is generally much riskier etc.

100% agree, that's why stats in this game mean little to nothing.

[adamts01]

KeeningBanshee, on 25 September 2017 - 12:40 AM, said:

When I Solo Kill 2 Assaults and KMDD 1 Heavy before I fall in an Assualt... then I did more than the coward (good) player hiding in the back

Absolutely. A 2 for 1 is more than any player in a 12v12 match should have to do. But, if you were the only solid player on your team then that could have been 4 for 1, or maybe just 4 KMDDs. I think it's a terrible ranking and MM system, and it sucks gimping your team if you're one of the few good players and you choose a "risky" role as Shifty very well put it. I've got a support Kit Fox that I actually really like to play. I love being a force multiplier and letting my assaults get work done, but at the end of the day they probably won't even do their tonnage in damage, all I did was prolong their death, and then I'm left with a ****** mech. Go metta or go home, that's the life of a good player in this game. Of course there are exceptional players who can carry in a Kit Fox, but I've never claimed to be one.

[Roadbuster]

H I A S, on 24 September 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

I mean look at all the sub 250 MS sub 1,5 KD guys at Tier1. How can a MM create good games for the low percentage of decent Players with so much terribadness around?

So you say all people who farm damage and last hits are good players?

And why do you care? You're not even playing.
Yes, I know. You don't play because there are so many bad players.
You know, that's life. What are you doing to make it better? Do you give advice to all these terribads? Do you lead pushes?
Or are you just one of the stat-warriors, who rather use their teammates as meatshields?

My stats are not great, and I make stupid mistakes too. I also let off sarcastic comments when my team loses because of stupid reasons.
But I'm also in the first line when someone calls a push, and I'll jump right into a bunch of enemies if someone needs help.
I guess that makes me a terribad player. Oh well, I can live with that.

H I A S said:

Elo aka WL is the best Skillrating, but even back in these days the MM wasnt perfect (but way better).
But thats not the question of this topic.

While MM based on W/L only, would make things easier for MM, It would also mean that good players would be forced to carry harder and harder to get a win, because MM would place weak players in the team to keep everyone close to 1.0 W/L if possible.
Besides, W/L is a bad indicator for player skill.

And what was better "back in these days", was the general player mentality.
People didn't act so cowardly, and didn't try to play MWO like a twitch shooter.
And they didn't get punished as hard when leading a push (part of that is a result of the old 8vs8 matches ofc.).

[KeeningBanshee]

adamts01, on 25 September 2017 - 01:39 AM, said:

Absolutely. A 2 for 1 is more than any player in a 12v12 match should have to do. But, if you were the only solid player on your team then that could have been 4 for 1, or maybe just 4 KMDDs. I think it's a terrible ranking and MM system, and it sucks gimping your team if you're one of the few good players and you choose a "risky" role as Shifty very well put it. I've got a support Kit Fox that I actually really like to play. I love being a force multiplier and letting my assaults get work done, but at the end of the day they probably won't even do their tonnage in damage, all I did was prolong their death, and then I'm left with a ****** mech. Go metta or go home, that's the life of a good player in this game. Of course there are exceptional players who can carry in a Kit Fox, but I've never claimed to be one.

The x4 high mounted cERML build possible from the Purifier torsos REALLY makes that a whole lot better mech. So you can support and be useful at dealing "supporting" damage as well.... great mech!

[Roadbuster]

KeeningBanshee, on 25 September 2017 - 12:40 AM, said:

When I Solo Kill 2 Assaults and KMDD 1 Heavy before I fall in an Assualt... then I did more than the coward (good) player hiding in the back.
Heck most times I probably would not even have to fall if I was being supported properly from the outset

QFT.
The worst thing about playing assault mechs is the expectation that you join the nascar and that, if you're not fast enough, you will take care of the 3-4 mechs swarming you.
Even if you ask for support, call for help, use a UAV to show that half the enemy team managed to get in your teams back already, nobody cares.
What I hate most (and don't understand at all) is when I'm advancing and pushing the enemy with the rest of the team right next to, or behind me, and suddenly get shot from 4 sides.
I mean, there are mechs in front and on both flanks AND behind us, and people don't notice them or warn the team because they are too busy cowering behind cover, playing campwarrior online.

[adamts01]

KeeningBanshee, on 25 September 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

The x4 high mounted cERML build possible from the Purifier torsos REALLY makes that a whole lot better mech. So you can support and be useful at dealing "supporting" damage as well.... great mech!

Damn, those torsos are game changers, of course they're behind a paywall, in true PGI fashion. I haven't spent money on this game in years, and by the looks of things I'm not starting any time soon.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

KeeningBanshee, on 25 September 2017 - 12:40 AM, said:

When I Solo Kill 2 Assaults and KMDD 1 Heavy before I fall in an Assualt... then I did more than the coward (good) player hiding in the back (course that is what happened in a Match today with the other Assault player talking about what a great player he is cause he is 30th on the Leaderboards by Wins, yet is ranked literally +14,000th by Match Score)!!!!! Heck most times I probably would not even have to fall if I was being supported properly from the outset but that is the problem of players who are bad being unable to recognize their glaring failures while still grinding up to Tier 2 in 2 months of play even with negative WLR & KDR both seasons he has been playing (+1000 games last season & +700 games this season).

I find it comical how people think that just because they grinded out a boatload of matches that they're actually good even though they drag their team down each match.


Anyway as for the OP, I'd say the answer is probably yes. Whether it be just lack of skill or just lack of care, many people even in T1 just really aren't good. If we look at comp tier compared to normal T1 its not even close, and then when you realize the tiers drop out all the way down to T5, there's just a load of players who just aren't any good at the game playing.

This is really the issue with any free to play game though. You bring in people from all over, usually people get a free to play game because its free even if they don't have a computer that can run it (explaining why a free game would be what they play so much), so you get a bunch of people who have technical issues and lag (DCs every other match). You also have no penalty for people doing bannable things if they are playing free to play, as they can just make a new account to run people off.

Other than this, the core playerbase isn't a very competitive one just due to the IP. Many players are much older than the common player of the more competitive games out now such as overwatch, CSGO, rainbow 6, etc, and don't agree with the concept of esports, being competitive in video games, or following a meta.

Speaking of metas, some games, especially many of the mobas and even CSGO, have some absolutely rigid metas that are expected to be followed any time during matchmaker games. Here you're lucky to have everyone on your team bringing at least a semi viable build, much less anything close to meta.


So yeah, the playerbase here really isn't one based around competitive gameplay, and as such the matchmaker falls apart, as even in T1 not everyone is playing competitively. Our actual comp player population is pretty small. A random matchmaker similar to World of Tanks that just sort of balances the match by weight classes or mech roles and leaves the skill pretty much random would probably work out just fine.

In WoT they have various skill tiers, the majority of the time you'll see the reds, which are bottom of the barrel, then occasionally yellows mixed in, and if you're lucky you'll have a green on your side and none on the enemy side and no one notices him so he carries. Also you occasionally see blues who just kill everyone and once every 500 moons you'll see a purple cruising the battlefield, obliterating all enemies within sight. That or they get focused down by some red level potato who managed a suicidal ram on one of them guns ablaze early in the match, tossing it into his team's favor.

[LordNothing]

Ruar, on 24 September 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

First, I don't think I'm awesome, so maybe chill with personal attacks.

Second, the fact you think you are so good that you can sway the fight against 12 other people shows your bias.  The most effective one person can be is using the mic and helping coordinate the team.  Individual mech skill isn't going to let you carry match after match.  If you are carrying every match then the MM is the reason because you are being slotted lower than your skill.

the bubble up mechanic rears its ugly head.

im an adult, i dont need my ego polished, i would like to know how i rank and do not feel that psr or any of the other win by technicality mechanics properly test that. especially with the bubble up. when i bubble up beyond where i really should be it slots me into the potato carrying slot. and i usually do well in that slot (in terms of cbill earnings at least), but the game is seldom a win. instead of this bubbling me down, i find i hold and find myself in games i really shouldnt be in, and dispite loosing a lot i never drop rank, only move forward.

random would be better in my opinion. fortunately the game has a mode for that, fp, and i do well there and mostly get whats coming to me. there is more variation, sometimes im the weak link and sometimes im god of the battlefield, and thats a lot more fun than the games where everything plays exactly the same to meet some matchmaker quota or some such.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 September 2017 - 03:33 AM.

[arcana75]

justcallme A S H, on 24 September 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

Plus if you make a new account, perform really well in matches you'll be T3 unless than 10 games in every instance. PGI at least got that part right.

10 games from T5 to T3? That maybe so in the past, but I don't think it's that easy anymore. The PSR bar barely moves in Tier 5 and Tier 4 despite up-arrows. I've been playing since Sept 2017.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

arcana75, on 25 September 2017 - 03:50 AM, said:

10 games from T5 to T3? That maybe so in the past, but I don't think it's that easy anymore. The PSR bar barely moves in Tier 5 and Tier 4 despite up-arrows. I've been playing since Sept 2017.

You can move from T5 to T4 in just one single match if you do good on your first match. The more matches you play the less volatile your PSR scale is. Your 25 cadet bonus matches act as your placement period and you can easily get to T3 in just those 25 matches if you're at least at a T3 level.

[Bigbacon]

adamts01, on 24 September 2017 - 06:49 PM, said:

Well, clearly many have left, and the community is worse for it, aside from being a terrible business practice to chase off customers. I care because getting a 12:0 stomp against the other team is like hunting at the zoo, there's just no challenge in it so no accompanying satisfaction. It's equally frustrating getting helplessly rolled because half your team couldn't manage to even get a single alpha worth of damage. I want a good fight, winning is icing on the cake..

yes and.. go play any other online game and guess what?!?!

stomps happen
some percentage of players ***** about how bad 99% of the player base is.
those same players ***** about how crap the MM is.

guess what?!?!
NONE OF THOSE GAMES HAVE BEEN FIXED THROUGH MM CHANGES.

they only way they, might be able to fix it is to make the MM absolutely so strict and rigid about ALL variables that you'd sit in queue forever and guess what??? Everyone suffers, not just the small amount of tryhards who ***** about this all the time.

they need to fix other things, like PR movement....make it easier to go down but with such a small player base I suspect the PR number isn't getting taken into account that often. So..vicious circle.

Edited by Bigbacon, 25 September 2017 - 04:39 AM.

[PyckenZot]

You did have 1 statement I agree with! Congrats!

H I A S, on 24 September 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

I mean look at all the sub 250 MS sub 1,5 KD guys at Tier1. How can a MM create good games for the low percentage of decent Players with so much terribadness around?

Tiers are not based on latency nor K/D. Besides, K/D means jackshit in a team based shooter,... W/L is a way better measurement.

H I A S, on 24 September 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

From my experience the average MWO Player is unskilled at videogames. Maybe because they simply dont play any other competitive PvP games and they are here for their BT fix?

From my experience match maker experience in MWO is similar, if not better, than any other massive online shooter I've played. (for the record,... a lot)

H I A S, on 24 September 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

A Part of the Com says "We only want hard competitive matches and play the best of the best". In the meantime they curbstomp Tier5 Pugs at CW and refuse to participate in ranked Mode.

People play FP for a multitude of reasons. MC rewards, respawns, mech leveling, immersion. From experience, stomp drops are classified as sad by both sides. It's boring for the stomping side. It does allow for C-bill farming.

H I A S, on 24 September 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

It's so sad.

The post truly is,...

H I A S, on 24 September 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

Maybe just make the MM random.

Any MM is random. It never knows when I'm drunk or not.

Edited by PyckenZot, 25 September 2017 - 05:12 AM.

[Asym]

Cloves, on 24 September 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

Yes there is reliance, however, you are judged by your average, not any particular win or loss. If you can get 12 players to win more than lose, the difference is YOU. If you think you are some sort of awesome player that "always get put on the losing team" I would take a closer look at how much you are contributing to the win.

No, you have the right idea but the wrong conclusions.... You is singluar, We is plaural. Teams are not about You, they about US..... I

How about the light or fast medium that does all of the capping in Conquest and actually wins the game with less than 100 in damage? Well um,...........yeah.......OK, didn't think of that.........

The same goes for Incurrison where the same pilots take minutes running around to collect power cells and at the end, usually are the only ones left to defend the base or destroy the enemy base? Less than 200 in damage? Well, they should have helped kill the 12 other players and then.................really, know how many Incurrison games I've seen a team lose based on this thought process???? You know, the W/L metric everyone uses to compare and disparage people with.......

How about the same players in Domination who make it to the circle and are destroyed because the rest of the team doesn't want to be involved in a battle? heck, that crew is all about My damage and My number of kills...... Less than 100 in damage if any.......and, harsh words when the My players lose.....

How about mastering new mech or testing new weight classes of mechs? Holy crap, if you are not a light pilot but you want to learn, that can and does add up to a lot of losses.......

How about when the "team" you are assigned is hopelessly out weighd, out "tier'd" and out classed? 12-0/1/2 games, one after another. Heck, I had 14 HPG's in a row a few weeks ago and lost everyone of them and there was NOTHING that would have changed that reality.... Six 12-0/1/2 team stomps that caused my team to stop dropping it seems????

How about...................it can go on and on.

Oh, that's right, this game is all about killing and damage............to be "GuD", you have to have >200 damage average and W/L > 1.0.... Really? I guess "everybody else" is suppose to do the "support work" while the "real men" do the brawling......

The only reason some stay is because they love MW and are waiting for "something" to change.

Edited by Asym, 25 September 2017 - 05:23 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Matchmaker for solo queue should be

>weight class based
>average match score, with an algorithm that can omit matches where a player disconnected
>KD/R and W/L as secondary weights
>Mech skills as a tertiary factor, holding very little influence but helping players with unskilled/new mechs get the ball rolling

Matchmaker should not be

>an experience bar
>almost impossible to regress in without being truly horrendous at the game
>top heavy. when everyone is tier 1, no one is tier 1.

[KeeningBanshee]

arcana75, on 25 September 2017 - 03:50 AM, said:

10 games from T5 to T3? That maybe so in the past, but I don't think it's that easy anymore. The PSR bar barely moves in Tier 5 and Tier 4 despite up-arrows. I've been playing since Sept 2017.

Yeah... I am Tier 3 on this account which I activated in Friday & will be banned this morning. I'm permabanned from the game for being mean to terribads who failed upwards until they were Tier 1 it 2. There is no real discernable difference between Tier 1 Solo play skill and Tier 4/5 Solo play skill... I actually enjoy the game again since Tier 3/4 players want to work together & follow dropcalling a whole lot more than people who have grinded those terribad behaviors permanently while failing upwards. PGIs punishment has been a godsend for me.

[Thorqemada]

Wayne...

[Cloves]

Asym, on 25 September 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

No, you have the right idea but the wrong conclusions.... You is singluar, We is plaural. Teams are not about You, they about US..... I

How about the light or fast medium that does all of the capping in Conquest and actually wins the game with less than 100 in damage? Well um,...........yeah.......OK, didn't think of that.........

The same goes for Incurrison where the same pilots take minutes running around to collect power cells and at the end, usually are the only ones left to defend the base or destroy the enemy base? Less than 200 in damage? Well, they should have helped kill the 12 other players and then.................really, know how many Incurrison games I've seen a team lose based on this thought process???? You know, the W/L metric everyone uses to compare and disparage people with.......

How about the same players in Domination who make it to the circle and are destroyed because the rest of the team doesn't want to be involved in a battle? heck, that crew is all about My damage and My number of kills...... Less than 100 in damage if any.......and, harsh words when the My players lose.....

How about mastering new mech or testing new weight classes of mechs? Holy crap, if you are not a light pilot but you want to learn, that can and does add up to a lot of losses.......

How about when the "team" you are assigned is hopelessly out weighd, out "tier'd" and out classed? 12-0/1/2 games, one after another. Heck, I had 14 HPG's in a row a few weeks ago and lost everyone of them and there was NOTHING that would have changed that reality.... Six 12-0/1/2 team stomps that caused my team to stop dropping it seems????

How about...................it can go on and on.

Oh, that's right, this game is all about killing and damage............to be "GuD", you have to have >200 damage average and W/L > 1.0.... Really? I guess "everybody else" is suppose to do the "support work" while the "real men" do the brawling......

The only reason some stay is because they love MW and are waiting for "something" to change.

I started as a light player, I empathize with you, I feel that I am vastly under-rewarded for the things you do to win compare to farming damage. This is one of the reasons I feel that if the PSR was more volatile, like a zero sum game, and was based on your team winning rather than your personal glory, it would make for a more accurate picture of your ability in the game and reward selfless play, leading to a healthier game.