43 replies to this topic

[Asmerak]

Mcgral18, on 13 October 2017 - 02:11 AM, said:

Technically, six chassis used

Of the 464 robots used in MWOWC2017, 71 were Spheroid
Or, 15% of the mechs used were Sphere (and half of Those being Wolfies)

I see. Some pretty good evidence for we 'IS guys having the gear", as one poster put it. It's pretty disappointing what little impact the Civil War update really had.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

BrunoSSace, on 12 October 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

Yes its not the battle tech Universe. Sadly, but IS weopons are heavy and take up alot of space. I don't know what else you could do. With out changing Ghost heat numbers.

You could start my tweaking heatsinks and heat skills for clan mechs so they actually run hotter like they're supposed to be.

Asmerak, on 13 October 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

I see. Some pretty good evidence for we 'IS guys having the gear", as one poster put it. It's pretty disappointing what little impact the Civil War update really had.

It's not the Civil War update in general, it's mostly heat values. IMHO especially the operations dissipation and capacity nodes 'fix' threw the balance to the gutter*.

*Heat skills are precentages and they're equal for every mech out there, so they benefit more the mechs that have hotter weapons, (clan) and use a lot of heatsinks (clan vomit), because the higher the base number the higher the bonus.

What's worse, PGI lately 'fixed' the 'broken' heat nodes in operations skill tree (previously their bonuses were applied only to the internal true dubs). Why is that a problem? Because all the balancing made previously was done on the basis of those 'broken' nodes, with mechs having lower heat capacity and lower heat dissipation. The result is overly generous heatbars for mechs with lots of heatsinks (mostly clan laserboats).

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 13 October 2017 - 03:07 AM.

[Asmerak]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 13 October 2017 - 03:05 AM, said:

You could start my tweaking heatsinks and heat skills for clan mechs so they actually run hotter like they're supposed to be.


It's not the Civil War update in general, it's mostly heat values. IMHO especially the operations dissipation and capacity nodes 'fix' threw the balance to the gutter*.

*Heat skills are precentages and they're equal for every mech out there, so they benefit more the mechs that have hotter weapons, (clan) and use a lot of heatsinks (clan vomit), because the higher the base number the higher the bonus.

What's worse, PGI lately 'fixed' the 'broken' heat nodes in operations skill tree (previously their bonuses were applied only to the internal true dubs). Why is that a problem? Because all the balancing made previously was done on the basis of those 'broken' nodes, with mechs having lower heat capacity and lower heat dissipation. The result is overly generous heatbars for mechs with lots of heatsinks (mostly clan laserboats).

I mean to say that the Civil War update was heralded as what would finally settle the inter-faction balancing issues we've long had, and, while it certainly has helped a bit, it really has changed very little.

[TWIAFU]

B0oN, on 12 October 2017 - 11:38 PM, said:

I´d be driving my 2ERPPC Summoner and 4ERPPC Warhawk all day .
Not like they are apex-meta anyway .

You IS guys ... you love to see yourselves in the role of the victims, instead of using what you all can easily acquire and I´m not talking LRMs here .

Yes, your equipment is heavier, but you can truly "Omni" ALL of your mechs .
Yes, on some mechs you lack a tiny bit of range, try range-quirked ones which you still have en masse .
Yes, on average your mechs are slower, but they can take so much more of a beating before finally falling .
Yes, clan mechs can have big alphas, but so can IS mechs ... and they can use those longer (3 ERL/LL/LPL before GH anybody?)

All in all I´m seeing too much QQ, and not enough PewPew, you IS guys got the gear, you just can´t use it like clangear, what´s so hard to understand there ?

Now set your heads straight, unbunch those GStrings of yours and GET TO FRIGGING WORK, it´s so damn tiresome reading all this victimrole drivel, you´re being in that spot because you don´t wanna play to the mech´s strengths, not because your mechs lack strength .

Bah, pffffff & yuck

So, when will YOU be going IS?

Put your money where your mouth is or shut it. The mouth.

[Bud Crue]

Asmerak, on 13 October 2017 - 03:23 AM, said:

I mean to say that the Civil War update was heralded as what would finally settle the inter-faction balancing issues we've long had, and, while it certainly has helped a bit, it really has changed very little.

I don't recall PGI ever heralding the Civil War Patch as something that would "finally settle the inter-faction balancing issues". That being said they did imply pretty strongly that their "major balance pass" of last month would be something that would aid the balance issues that Civil War tech may have introduced. Alas, the very mild pass we received (https://mwomercs.com...-2017/#gameplay) did little to address that imbalance, with the biggest changes probably being the mild nerf to both sides LMGs (thus ensuring that the Clan side which is the only side with lights that can boat 8 of the things stayed inherently superior) and maybe the nerf to the Warhawks PPC performance, etc. (I was just happy Chris didn't take away more IS mechs quirks).

Sigh. I think that very soon^TM they should do another "balance pass" and maybe with this one they actually do something to address balance. That's just my own crazy idea, though.

[Asmerak]

Bud Crue, on 13 October 2017 - 03:49 AM, said:

I don't recall PGI ever heralding the Civil War Patch as something that would "finally settle the inter-faction balancing issues". That being said they did imply pretty strongly that their "major balance pass" of last month would be something that would aid the balance issues that Civil War tech may have introduced. Alas, the very mild pass we received (https://mwomercs.com...-2017/#gameplay) did little to address that imbalance, with the biggest changes probably being the mild nerf to both sides LMGs (thus ensuring that the Clan side which is the only side with lights that can boat 8 of the things stayed inherently superior) and maybe the nerf to the Warhawks PPC performance, etc. (I was just happy Chris didn't take away more IS mechs quirks).

Sigh. I think that very soon^TM they should do another "balance pass" and maybe with this one they actually do something to address balance. That's just my own crazy idea, though.

I don't recall them doing so either. From memory, a lot of the forumites seemed convinced the balance would be much better. The LFE, in particular, people were excited for, though it's just a **** version of the CXL. We're not relegated to standards anymore in mechs that are bad for XLs or are short on slots, but XLs are still the way to go if you want a competitive level of firepower.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Asmerak, on 13 October 2017 - 04:04 AM, said:

(...) but XLs are still the way to go if you want a competitive level of firepower.

With current balance, IS mechs are unable to reach competitive levels of firepower.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

IS generally isn't very competitive in competitive level play in general due to how important high single shot and burst damage becomes at high levels.

In general an IS laser mech would beat a Clan laser mech if both are playing to their strengths just due to the IS mech having similar DPS but better burn times coupled with higher HP. But this requires the IS mech to get into range and for the Clan mech to not be able to use cover. Even with both just using a 6 MPL build, the Clan mech does have the higher total DPS and sustain and range, but that 50% longer beam duration lets the high armor and structure of the IS mech get put to work spreading damage. When you get Clan mechs using ERML + HLL builds it really becomes easy for IS to spread damage against a beam over 250% longer (compared to IS MPL) in duration with longer cooldowns and more heat per shot.

One of the reasons why Wolfhounds and Assassins are so effective is because they are both fast enough that they can get into range and harass an enemy so that they effectively negate cover. Its also one of the reasons why some of the best performing IS teams in FW ambush enemies so that they can negate any range advantages then make cover ineffective by swarming the enemy.



Really I don't see IS becoming the most popular option in competitive play unless we happen to see more maps that are more enclosed while also semi open. A large city for example, buildings to block line of sight on the approaching enemy, but wide open streets with little cover to run behind to get out of the way of the coming IS push. We will still see them in the form of fast light and mediums set to outbrawl mechs above their weight class at least.

Edited by Dakota1000, 13 October 2017 - 04:52 AM.

[Daurock]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 13 October 2017 - 04:32 AM, said:

With current balance, IS mechs are unable to reach competitive levels of firepower.

Oh, they can, if all of the following condtions are true:
- Are safe/fast enough to run with an XL engine
- Have enough space for full endo / ferro without being cramped. (Generally done by bringing less than 2 or 3 external heatsinks and a light weapon payload)
- Are fast enough where the extra range provided by clan equipment isn't a problem.

There aren't really a ton of mechs that fit all those criteria, and nearly all of them are light class mechs. Quirks can bring a mech that already basically satisfies these 3 conditions to an overpowered state (see: Wolfhound, assasin) It's also why quirks won't work on anything bigger. 1 or more of those things not being fulfiled can quickly bring an IS mech well behind a clan mech, regardless of how many quirks you give it. (I don't care for a massive quirks on my hunchback if it can only hold 1 AC10 compared to the clan hunchback that can hold 2 AC10s, for example)

[CK16]

Why do these seem more frequent lately?!

Balance has not changed in a long time, but it also hasn't been in a state of total imbalance for awhile. Also this is based on battletech which has never balanced out Clan vs IS besides numbers (but we can't do that really in a pvp shooter That's like saying hey want to play Russian's that have crap but unlimited respawns? Or the Germans with all the fun toys but you get one life? Who wants to die? I guess in game IS seems to have a slight advantage of attrition in a 1v1 of equal tonnage(more armor and structure, better hit boxes on many mechs ect) but clans chew it up, TL:DR there, still down to skill and using the advantages to your strength and limit your weaknesses)

Grass is not as green as it looks from both sides, clans for instance would love to be able to have more forgiving ghost heat numbers, single shot AC's, shorter laser durations, structure and armor quirks, better torso twists on many assaults, ect. ect. ect. True 100% balance will likely never happen unless every mech at the tonnage brackets was the exact same, and could mount the exact same gear and weapons (like MW4....) but hell no to mixed tech atrocities!

TL:DR balance is honestly the best it has been since the Clans came in, is it perfect? No, but we never will have perfect balance in a game like this for many lore and game play reasons.

[Bud Crue]

CK16, on 13 October 2017 - 05:00 AM, said:

Why do these seem more frequent lately?!

Balance has not changed in a long time, but it also hasn't been in a state of total imbalance for awhile. Also this is based on battletech which has never balanced out Clan vs IS besides numbers (but we can't do that really in a pvp shooter That's like saying hey want to play Russian's that have crap but unlimited respawns? Or the Germans with all the fun toys but you get one life? Who wants to die? I guess in game IS seems to have a slight advantage of attrition in a 1v1 of equal tonnage(more armor and structure, better hit boxes on many mechs ect) but clans chew it up, TL:DR there, still down to skill and using the advantages to your strength and limit your weaknesses)

Grass is not as green as it looks from both sides, clans for instance would love to be able to have more forgiving ghost heat numbers, single shot AC's, shorter laser durations, structure and armor quirks, better torso twists on many assaults, ect. ect. ect. True 100% balance will likely never happen unless every mech at the tonnage brackets was the exact same, and could mount the exact same gear and weapons (like MW4....) but hell no to mixed tech atrocities!

TL:DR balance is honestly the best it has been since the Clans came in, is it perfect? No, but we never will have perfect balance in a game like this for many lore and game play reasons.

Why are these more frequent?
Because:

1) The skills tree. If I have to explain how this percentage based system buffed clan mechs to a disproportionate degree then there is no point in discussing this further.

2) The skills tree nerfs. Predominantly affected IS mechs far more than clan mechs. While PGI backed off of most of the really egregious ones that were part of the PTS, they nevertheless did nerf quite a few.

3) The energy rebalance. Example: Hitting LPLs by 1 little point may not be much but that adds up, particularly when you consider that this weapon was a (thee?) mainstay of most good if not competitive IS builds. See also energy range disparity.

4) The major rebalance last month. Here they were painfully careful to hit not just some so called “over performers” but their counterparts on the other side of the tech as well. Example: the LMG nerf applies not to just the mist lynx and cheetahs boating 6-8 of them (the only mechs imho that LMGs were “over performing” on) but they applied it to IS LMGs as well on whose side of the tech no mech can carry 8 and only 3 mechs can carry 6 and none of them are lights. This guarantees that the perceived imbalance is maintained and even heightened since the Clans got yet another 6B light on the same day (Jenner Hero) and are soon to get the Piranha.

5) The preponderance of new clan mechs since the IIcs came out, which have more numerous and/or higher hard points than any equivelant weight IS mech. What IS mech has the hard point number and height of a Deathstrike? A Mauler perhaps? Now try building them similarly and compare them value wise and model wise side by side. You don’t see a blatant imbalance there? How about something as mundane as a Hunchback IIc? Build me an IS 50 ton mech with JJ and the ability to carry 2 UAC10s at shoulder height with near full armor and back up lasers. Take any of the mostly clan mechs (oddly enough) mech from the MWOWC and build what was played in the tourney on a same weight IS mech and honestly tell me which you would rather play...IS quirks and all.

6) Civil War tech. Many clanners like to point to all the cool new stuff that the IS got vs the Clans and say, in effect “boo hoo, we got screwed”. This is totally disingenuous. The Heavy Laser line of weapons out classes anything new on the IS side. A 1 ton weapon doing 10 points or a 4 ton that does 18 both at reasonable heat. Yeah, the IS 10 ton, slow as ****, 15 pinpoint point HPPC compensates for that I guess.

There’s more to it than that of course, but I am just focusing on what I perceive as being the cause of “why are these [imbalance whine posts] more frequent” within the context of your assertion that balance is “the best it has been since the Clans came in”. Balance is not “the best it has been” and there are very good reasons why folks -on both sides of the tech mind you- are complaining about it.

Edited by Bud Crue, 13 October 2017 - 08:19 AM.

[Tordin]

Tarogato, on 12 October 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

I'd sure call it a parallel universe, because it's not a BattleTech universe. =P

Tzzz, burn!!

[Shifty McSwift]

BrunoSSace, on 12 October 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

What if in a Parallel Universe, IS weopons got buffed to make them more competitive to Clan Equipment. Lets say damage was increased for lasers and and weight and crit slits were lower for nearly everything.
In this world, these things would happen.
Is medium and ER Lasers would have their damage increased to 5.5
Large lasers and ER would now be 10 damage and weight 4 tons
Large Pulse Lasers would be 12 damage, weight 5 tons.

Ballistic damage would stay the same but everything would get lowered but 1 ton and 1 crit slot.

Xl Engines would survive a side torso loss but, you would move at 50% speed and have 50% heat penalty.

PPC damage stay the same but weight would be lowered buy 1 ton for all IS PPC's, crit slots stay the same.

Clans still be stronger in nearly every way but now IS Assults can boat Ballistic better
Is weapons would now be able to compete. CLANS would now cry about the Large Pulse Lasers again.
This would never happen but would be nice to see what would happened if this was done on a test server or something. Sorry but if they want to keep trying to make Clan VS IS Bull#$@t then something thing needs to happen instead of this Quirk Bandages. My 5Cents, and what I think could happen. Bruno.

If that happened, no one would play clan, IS would just be superior.

Imean your medium laser idea alone.. not only lowering its weight and crit slots (not that less than 1 would be a sane thing to do), but just buffing its damage and leaving it as faster burning and cooler than clanML...

Yeah you just turned what you see as a problem upside down and then beat the losing side down some more on top of that.

[CK16]

You know I do find something rather funny/interesting.

PGI keeps to the TT damage relatively well for all weapons besides lasers and machine guns (although machine guns in game do not translate to the turn based system). In fact iirc most lasers are over the TT value for their damage in game currently. Idk something to chew on a bit. (Personally hate laser boating for numerous reasons I won't go on ranting about)

[Darth Vaper]

Ok, as someone who runs two accounts, one for IS and one for clans, I can say that it's definately easier to play clan mechs. Also the FP map speaks volumes. Are you going to tell me that most IS players just suck really bad and clanners are all tier one tryhards?

[Racerxintegra2k]

Darth Vaper, on 13 October 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Ok, as someone who runs two accounts, one for IS and one for clans, I can say that it's definately easier to play clan mechs. Also the FP map speaks volumes. Are you going to tell me that most IS players just suck really bad and clanners are all tier one tryhards?

Get gud n00b ;-) that's the response you'll get from the clan apologists.

[CK16]

Darth Vaper, on 13 October 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Ok, as someone who runs two accounts, one for IS and one for clans, I can say that it's definately easier to play clan mechs. Also the FP map speaks volumes. Are you going to tell me that most IS players just suck really bad and clanners are all tier one tryhards?

It's called mercs, loyalist sadly have hardly any affect on the map since it dropped

[MischiefSC]

Actually BT is a symetrically balanced game universe, save for a narrow slice that is generally agreed to be the worst point in the games history and the one that is liked the least by anyone save a select slice of munchkins who loved a game built around them being OP and everyone forced to play inferior tech.

Before this era, things are balanced 1 to 1.

After this era, things are balanced 1 to 1. IS and Clan, btw, in Battletech, is balanced 1 to 1 - largely by mixed tech because having an IS ERPPC+ that's identical to a Clan ERPPC, so it's still just called an ERPPC that does 15 damage per hit with the exact same stats but both Clan and IS build identical ones.

Like before this era.

So it would be absolutely Battletech to have IS/Clans balanced 1 to 1. Only instead of losing all individuality between factions in how the mechs play by balancing it like Tabletop did with mixed tech and everyone having the same stuff (save for a few unique little toys each faction has) why don't we do it with the content already in the game and try to keep some difference between them.

Clan/IS balanced 1 to 1 is Battletech. It's where Battletech went, because the asymetrical version was broke as **** and only the munchkins loved it. So they did the Jihad, blew up the whole game universe and rebooted it with everyone equal. They just also introduced a billion other weapons and armors and stuff that we don't have/need and made it a mess that way. Why don't we do that now, with what we have, just with smart game choices? Instead of having Clan/IS both have XL engines that work identical, have identical slots (as they do in BT now), we have them still be a bit different but still equal. This absolutely false idea that Clans always have to be a bit better because 'lore' is a lie and terrible, terrible game design.

So why don't we skip the bad mistakes that got made originally and move to the smart end result - maybe even better, by having equal balance without having to do mixed tech.

[Christophe Ivanov]

AlphaEtOmega, on 13 October 2017 - 02:12 AM, said:

The ASN-21 is a super strong Mech at the moment. If you have bad results with the Assassin it is not the problem of the Mech.

Keep in mind, each player has different play style(s) which most likely are different than yours. As always, practice makes one proficient. I'm sure you would kick my butt if we went toe-to-toe with the Assassin as I play assaults mostly.

Edited by Christophe Ivanov, 13 October 2017 - 01:59 PM.

[Darth Vaper]

Racerxintegra2k, on 13 October 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

Get gud n00b ;-) that's the response you'll get from the clan apologists.

Better than you

Edited by Darth Vaper, 13 October 2017 - 03:37 PM.