153 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Take a bushwacher into the nova's.face for a kiss of death. Torso twist a little to use armor from all three torsos. The nova can't due to long duration. At 50 tons a crab can also do it.

[Bonzai VI]

A Nova with 12 C-ERSML is highly ineffective.

He has an alpha of double tap 30s, yes, but literally NOTHING else.

You've got a CD of 3.2 seconds, that's as high as the CD of the C-LPL.
Paired with it's 1.1 seconds duration (reminder, C-LPL have 1.09) you've got, in the perfect case, a duration of 1.7 seconds to get your 60 dmg through.
6 C-MPL may have only an alpha of 42, but they're done in 0.9 seconds.

You're dealing 60 dmg while producing 42 heatpoints when firing 12 ER-SML. (raw heat stats)
6 C-MPL deal 42 dmg, while heating up your 'Mech by 28.5 points.

You may have 6 less heatsinks, but you're more heatefficient.

C-ERSML are plain bad as a main weapon.
You don't have the heat to even kill one guy.

The Clans light weapons srsly suck right now.

Edited by Bonzai VI, 13 November 2017 - 11:50 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Clydewinder, on 13 November 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

the nova with 12 er small is a 60 point alpha with 6 tons of weaponry ( not counting heatsinks ) - if that is not unbalanced, then I would like to know what the IS counterbalance to that is.

IS counter balance to that is practically any brawler. SRMs out range the build while running cooler while having no face time and the mech carrying those SRMs is faster, tankier, and likely more agile.

[Clydewinder]

Dakota1000, on 13 November 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

IS counter balance to that is practically any brawler. SRMs out range the build while running cooler while having no face time and the mech carrying those SRMs is faster, tankier, and likely more agile.

interesting theory but with 2 novas 1st alpha right leg gone, 2nd alpha left leg gone. SRM spread damage ( and weigh 2x clan missiles ) and still outranged by ER SMlas. IS energy weapon completely outclassed, . heat is irrelevant at that point.

DPS builds are useless when you are immobilized or dead in 3-4 seconds. Hardpoint inflation and weapon imbalance have been the AIDS of MWO for the longest time. the whole game has been a series of nerfs to try and tame clan OP - when the clans first dropped, every match would have 1500-2000 damage Timbers and Dires... every time. Then nerf them down, wasn't enough, had to buff the PISS out of IS mechs to make MWO back into a game. then release Kodiak, same drill, 1500 damage every match until that one gets hammered back down.

the faction play clan tonnage had to get nerfed because stormcrows outclass every other medium and have glitchy hitboxes on top of it. so nerf down to 50 tons, now we've got lights and mediums on the field that have more hardpoints than 99% of IS assault mechs - with lighter weapons, longer range, more damage.

granted, faction play games rely more on teamwork than anything else - an organized team will beat pugs almost every time. but all things being equal, when 2 teams drop and the other team is fielding 2-3x as many weapons, it's not a contest any more. tonnage for tonnage, 4 tons for SRM6 + 1 ton ammo vs 8 clan ER SMlas? spread 13 damage IS vs pinpoint 40 damage Clan? it's just silly IMO.

in the meantime, of the 18+ people in my ( casual ) group of players, 2 still play... for this reason ( among others )

game has to be FUN first and foremost.

[Jman5]

Spheroid, on 01 November 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

Really they ALL bring Bushwackers? That has not been by experience in puglandia. Maybe you need to wait the obligatory amount of time to desync from whatever four man was farming you.

I have been murdering people in my Huntsman with zero difficulty.

During the event, the Bushwacker was the most frequent IS mech I saw in Scouting. Over on Clan sides the most frequent builds I saw were Streakboats. Hunchback IICs and Huntsmen.

[Bonzai VI]

*sigh*

People really can't bear with the idea to turn away their leg when they're being shot...

For some reason nobody fkin cares that they are being shot and just look at the enemy.
And cover is something entirely new to them.

It's not hard to stand 90° to your enemy so he can't shoot your still standing leg.

[Clydewinder]

Jman5, on 13 November 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

During the event, the Bushwacker was the most frequent IS mech I saw in Scouting. Over on Clan sides the most frequent builds I saw were Streakboats. Hunchback IICs and Huntsmen.

Bushwacker, Shadowhawk, Griffin

Bonzai VI, on 13 November 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

*sigh*

People really can't bear with the idea to turn away their leg when they're being shot...

For some reason nobody fkin cares that they are being shot and just look at the enemy.
And cover is something entirely new to them.

It's not hard to stand 90° to your enemy so he can't shoot your still standing leg.

in a 1v1 fight this works

[Bonzai VI]

Clydewinder, on 13 November 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

Bushwacker, Shadowhawk, Griffin

Not enough Crabs.^^

Edited by Bonzai VI, 13 November 2017 - 03:02 PM.

[Bonzai VI]

@Clydewinder

As soon as you're not swarmed and outnumbered it works.

At least you're delaying the enemies for some seconds so your team can cool down and get the trade if it doesn't go well before.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Clydewinder, on 13 November 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

interesting theory but with 2 novas 1st alpha right leg gone, 2nd alpha left leg gone. SRM spread damage ( and weigh 2x clan missiles ) and still outranged by ER SMlas. IS energy weapon completely outclassed, . heat is irrelevant at that point.

DPS builds are useless when you are immobilized or dead in 3-4 seconds. Hardpoint inflation and weapon imbalance have been the AIDS of MWO for the longest time. the whole game has been a series of nerfs to try and tame clan OP - when the clans first dropped, every match would have 1500-2000 damage Timbers and Dires... every time. Then nerf them down, wasn't enough, had to buff the PISS out of IS mechs to make MWO back into a game. then release Kodiak, same drill, 1500 damage every match until that one gets hammered back down.

the faction play clan tonnage had to get nerfed because stormcrows outclass every other medium and have glitchy hitboxes on top of it. so nerf down to 50 tons, now we've got lights and mediums on the field that have more hardpoints than 99% of IS assault mechs - with lighter weapons, longer range, more damage.

granted, faction play games rely more on teamwork than anything else - an organized team will beat pugs almost every time. but all things being equal, when 2 teams drop and the other team is fielding 2-3x as many weapons, it's not a contest any more. tonnage for tonnage, 4 tons for SRM6 + 1 ton ammo vs 8 clan ER SMlas? spread 13 damage IS vs pinpoint 40 damage Clan? it's just silly IMO.

in the meantime, of the 18+ people in my ( casual ) group of players, 2 still play... for this reason ( among others )

game has to be FUN first and foremost.

But the Bushwackers running quad ASRM6 would also destroy a Nova's leg in two alphas and Novas spread damage as much as, if not more than, the Bushwackers due to having nearly 2 seconds worth of burn time to avoid ghost heat. The Bushwackers could also bring 2 RL20s with their 4 ASRM6 while still bringing an LFE engine that moves them faster than the Nova, allowing each Bushwacker to oneshot a leg on its first alpha by itself. All this while still being longer ranged.

Nova's build is more of a DPS build than the Bushwacker since it has near 2 second fact time while the Bushwacker has no face time.

In general the casual players of my team prefer to play scouting when we're on IS because they prefer the easy mode that is out brawling Clanners while having higher alphas and higher armor.

You just got to stop comparing the weapons in a total vacuum, especially without even taking into account anything but the damage and tonnage stat. Those ER small lasers can run pretty hot, forcing the user to have a load of heatsinks. Bushwacker has 20 tons of ASRM6(4 tons ammo included in that weight) and Nova has 15 tons of ERSLs+heatsinks, so the Nova is only paying 5 tons less weight for its build, but it does get lower range, lower sustained dps, way longer duration of alpha, and more heat generation if we're just talking weapons and not the chassis itself.

[Clydewinder]

Dakota1000, on 13 November 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

But the Bushwackers running quad ASRM6 would also destroy a Nova's leg in two alphas and Novas spread damage as much as, if not more than, the Bushwackers due to having nearly 2 seconds worth of burn time to avoid ghost heat. The Bushwackers could also bring 2 RL20s with their 4 ASRM6 while still bringing an LFE engine that moves them faster than the Nova, allowing each Bushwacker to oneshot a leg on its first alpha by itself. All this while still being longer ranged.

Nova's build is more of a DPS build than the Bushwacker since it has near 2 second fact time while the Bushwacker has no face time.

In general the casual players of my team prefer to play scouting when we're on IS because they prefer the easy mode that is out brawling Clanners while having higher alphas and higher armor.

You just got to stop comparing the weapons in a total vacuum, especially without even taking into account anything but the damage and tonnage stat. Those ER small lasers can run pretty hot, forcing the user to have a load of heatsinks. Bushwacker has 20 tons of ASRM6(4 tons ammo included in that weight) and Nova has 15 tons of ERSLs+heatsinks, so the Nova is only paying 5 tons less weight for its build, but it does get lower range, lower sustained dps, way longer duration of alpha, and more heat generation if we're just talking weapons and not the chassis itself.

ok, so the Huntsman can do the same build with more ammo & more heatsinks due to 1/2 weight missiles with free artemis - and jumpjets

in fact i just threw one together on smurfy's with the 4 ASRM6 build and 6 tons of ammo and had 10+ tons left over on a mech thats 5 tons lighter

Edited by Clydewinder, 13 November 2017 - 03:58 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Clydewinder, on 13 November 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

ok, so the Huntsman can do the same build with more ammo & more heatsinks due to 1/2 weight missiles with free artemis - and jumpjets

And doing that same build on the Huntsman you have more spread and less damage on your SRMs, your mech is much more fragile, you move slightly slower, and your ASRMs are all arm mounted so either way you try to torso twist damage away you'll lose half your firepower. Half weight ASRMs don't help all too much when the SRMs themselves are worse and you can't use the extra ammo during the match and you don't run hot enough for the heatsinks to matter much. But hey, you do get jump jets... which usually just make it really easy to leg you. You also don't get the whole 80 damage dual RL20 consumable alpha.

Edited by Dakota1000, 13 November 2017 - 05:44 PM.

[Bonzai VI]

Someones actually using the info that's in smurfys without twisting it!
Thank you so much Dakota, didn't think someone could view things objectively here^^

@Clydewinder

That's the problem, now you've got the equipment you wanted. But what now?
Wanna put in some lasers? Then you're running hotter and you've got massive facetime.
Add more SRM's? Ghost heat won't let you. You also cannot put a bigger engine in nor equipment that's really useful.
SRM's are light on clan-side yes, but you've got plenty cons outweighing that.

Edited by Bonzai VI, 13 November 2017 - 04:05 PM.

[Nighthawk513]

Bonzai VI, on 13 November 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

SRM's are light on clan-side yes, but you've got plenty cons outweighing that.

Like the fact that the spread on CSRM6 is ********?

[Roland09]

Nighthawk513, on 13 November 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Like the fact that the spread on CSRM6 is ********?

Like the fact that you got free CASE in all components. I have been blown apart by ammo explosions more than once after having one of my legs just opened, the 6x MG battery landed the crit.

Why do I put ammo in legs in the first place? Simple: Because heat sinks won't fit there.

[Roland09]

Nighthawk513, on 13 November 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Like the fact that the spread on CSRM6 is ********?

Like the fact that your SRM boats can easily mount 50% more SRMs than a typical IS SRM boat?

Edited by Roland09, 13 November 2017 - 11:14 PM.

[Reza Malin]

GeoSynchronicity, on 01 November 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

I have been playing a lot of scouting matches as clan due to the recent holiday events. I have tried several mechs as well as many builds, and I can firmly attest that the bushwhacker mech is just plain unfair when you end up in a brawl (which is the only rewarding way to play scouting). Anyone with a head on their shoulders can tell you that 4x55 tons is greater than 4x50 tons when it comes to armor and firepower. I understand how they felt they needed to balance the scouting when the stormcrow was the superpower, but now it just simply switched over to the bushwhacker and so they really just made the problem happen all over again for the other side. If anyone doubts this, just look at the scouting bar when you are waiting for the game to start. The bar is NEVER below 50% for IS, and is usually more than 75%. Something NEEDS to change to help balance scouting. My suggestion: lower the tonnage EQUALLY for both IS and clan to a point where the mechs on either side feel balanced. Perhaps 50 tons for both? Maybe 45 tons? Perhaps even less? Hopefully they already have plans to fix this imbalance issue...

Just bring a nova with 10 x heavy smalls and 4 x HMG

[Lanikin Malachite]

The answer isn't tons. When clan tech was introduced to Battletech, you could no longer balance a game ton for ton, as all their stuff is lighter and better, it was no longer a quick and dirty way to make equal battles. (And I think for Inner Sphere, it wasn't too good either, I mean, what if I had a Charger? ew.) The solution would be to introduce battle value into MWO. Where a mech's weight/armor/firepower/sensor capabilities are quantified (somehow, balance is different in a shooter than tabletop) and a mech's value in battle is determined by what it's capable of not what it's relative mass is.

One can argue that the 5 ton difference is enough to bring the clan tech weight savings into line with the IS tech's bulk, but all mechs are not created equal. a twin RAC5 Bushwacker puts out a lot more damage than any Hunchback IIc at longer range with better armor. (especially if you're running twin UAC20 which jam if you even think about shooting them). But then again I could run a bushwacker armed with nothing but ROCKETS. and while having a sudden powerful punch, be left useless. Battletech abandoned tons in 1990, I know it's EASIER but MWO needs to abandon mass as a means of creating balance, as it does not translate.

[Bonzai VI]

@Roland09

You've got two options here:

Cry some more.

Actually read the stuff people write since we already talked about this and you're talking nonsense.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bonzai VI, on 14 November 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

@Roland09

You've got two options here:

Cry some more.

Actually read the stuff people write since we already talked about this and you're talking nonsense.

Now why would he do that? That would first involve he overcome the Backfire effect.

He has already rooted it deep within his perspective of reality that the problem is tech based, as opposed to anything else. His grasp of reality in scouting hinges entirely on the concept that there are numerous impossible to overcome advantages that the Clans have. To accept that the IS have numerous advantages that they can leverage against the Clans, that the Clans are consistently on the losing side of Scouting for a reason, and that the answer to his woes might just be to look inwardly at how he's approaching the game and the fights therein work counter to his mental construct of reality as he knows it.

Odds are, if he is so entrenched in his opinion, actual facts might actually serve to make things worse when trying to correct his process. It isn't logical. Even giving solutions, the backfire effect demands his brain formulate a "yes but" to everything in an attempt to reallign things overwhelmingly in Clan favor, because that is the reality he has decided. Everything else challenges that, and our brains are stupidly stubborn when it comes to trying to protect the integrity of our perceived realities.

But, no. Clans are totally OP. That is why the bar is usually maxed out in IS favor in scouting mode. We're so powerful, we pushed that bar so far off the side of the Clan advantages that it came out the other side. Clearly.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 November 2017 - 09:17 AM.