94 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

Cementi, on 03 November 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

Rofl coming from a clanner this is rich.

Oh and to those claiming clan lrms are worse.....lol did you forget that the launchers are half the tonnage?

Absolutely. Also at a cost of efficacy at range. There is a grey area when you get to the crazy boating capability vs crappier general performance of C-LRMs of the Snova-B, MAD-IIC- B, MCII-2/4. pretty much Clan Assaults. However, some of the issue lies with players looking at numbers on paper vs actual efficacy of a weapon system. Sure, you can rack up some high damage (SPREAD) with C-boats but wouldn't you rather just kill a mech? which is what IS-LRMs are better for.

Best solution.
Don't use LRMs
Utilize cover
Incoming Missile alert goes on - don't stand in place.

[Mr Snrub]

I think the balance is tipped towards Clans to an increasingly absurd level.

I don't think it has anything to do with their AMS advantage.

(Quite a strange thing to complain about, tbh.)

[Mr Death]

Mr Snrub, on 03 November 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

I think the balance is tipped towards Clans to an increasingly absurd level.

I don't think it has anything to do with their AMS advantage.

(Quite a strange thing to complain about, tbh.)

No complaint was made. Just a valid question. AGAIN. Clan has 2 mechs with 3 ams and an incoming 4 ams version. Is there an IS one in TRO or incoming that can do same. TROLLS BE DAMNED a valid question.

Edited by Mr Death, 03 November 2017 - 01:13 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

It was the way the question was posed, dude.

No. There is not a IS mech that has more than 2 AMS systems. There.

[VonBruinwald]

Cementi, on 03 November 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

Rofl coming from a clanner this is rich.

Oh and to those claiming clan lrms are worse.....lol did you forget that the launchers are half the tonnage?

Wait... are you seriously complaining that I'm taking on side of the argument?

You're bang on though, 1/2 tonnage launchers with no min-range also defeats the whole "my launcher is worse than your launcher" argument.

But this isn't about the launchers, it's about the AMS, and just how many the clanners are boating.

[Jay Leon Hart]

A quick-ish search on Sarna shows the Kit Fox is the only 'mech with 3 AMS, everything else is a non-mech vehicle.

So unless PGI makes up a variant, or as Brain Cancer says they stick to adding 1 AMS to every BattleMech, no triple or quadruple AMS 'mechs for the IS.

[Brain Cancer]

Incidentally, right now the higher number of AMS also probably tends to balance out the better AMS resistance IS launchers get vs. Clan ones.

Not that you can't reasoably fit to lob 80 missiles at a time with Clan assaults or even Orion IICs, but it's tough to properly sustain that level of saturation. You GH at two LRM 15/20, and you can't really fit the heat sinks to keep a barrage that big cooled...unless you chainfire the launchers.

Into AMS, that's the worst case scenario. I do funky LRM/ATM tricks firing 30 or so LRMs chased by 21-24 ATMs so they generally arrive at the same time without ghost heat issues, but a pure LRM barrage can't keep that many tubes cooled for long. Even Supernova-A lobbers that have the raw tonnage to eschew endo/ferro for maximum heatsinkage slow down fast, especially on hot maps.

Worse, they're not only huge spread, but streaming fire means they spread even further and any spread nerf actually stings worse than on IS launchers, just like AMS buffs ding Clan launchers more than IS ones.

[Jackal Noble]

I thought the inclusion of AMS on all IS mechs was something that was done a while ago. Could be mistaken.

[Insanity09]

The hardpoint(s) may be standard on effectively every IS mech, just as the option, one way or another, may be there to have at least one AMS on the great majority of clan mechs, but the real question is what percentage of mechs, clan or IS, actually USE those hardpoints.

That might also be broken down into QP vs. Group vs. FP vs. Comp.

I would suggest that most people do not devote the tonnage to even one AMS, so the presence of the hardpoint becomes somewhat irrelevant.

Of note as well, missiles of all kinds, ATMs, SRMs, LRMs. MRMs, can be shot down by AMS (with varying degrees of effectiveness), and while some types (e.g. LRMs) may be less prevalent in FP (and comp?), others are still fairly common. While one AMS might not be too worthwhile against, say, SRMs, a slew of them (say 4, 1 each on a lance working tightly together), can pretty much neuter any missiles. But perhaps that is just another example of teamwork being potent.
I've never been clear why folks never bring up AMS use against SRMs. The close range makes it less effective? But wouldn't clan LRMs, even streamed, that still do damage sub 180 also allow for that? Hmm.

[Lykaon]

Khobai, on 03 November 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

due to their ripple fire, clan missiles are shot down by ams far more easily than IS missiles. giving IS a 4 ams mech just makes clan missiles suck even more

Quick play is the most frequently used mode in MWo. Quick Play is where the vast majority of players are participating in matches at any given time.

In quickplay a team is mixed clan and Inner Sphere so...your primary point is by and large moot. Since clan missiles can very easily be faced off against a Multi AMS clan platform.

And...ripple fire makes those clan LRMs more vulnerable to AMS but,half the weight per launcher?...omni-pod optimization to maximize hardpoint selection? what cost does this have? is there a downside? maybe it's the AMS vulnerability?

ATMs though, well you do have a solid point here since ATMs have similar weight per tube cost to I.S. LRM launchers.

[Andi Nagasia]

Mr Death, on 03 November 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

Clan has 3 ams nova. Incoming 4 ams pirahna. Where is IS mech can do at least 3 ams?

well the 3AMS KFX is a good Support Platform, but it your taking AMS it really limits your fire power,

the 3AMS NVA has to sacrifice Armor or HeatGen to get and use 3AMS,
in order to benefit from AMS you have to dedicate 3-6Tons of AMS equipment,
thats move than 1/3 of the NVAs avalible tonnage dedicated to Anti-Missile,

the same will go for the Piranha, a 20Ton mechs with 4AMS?
thats 4-8Tons on a chassis that only will have around 4-6 tons most of the time,
yes some may run 4AMS to be Anti-Missile Trolls, but other than that i dont expect much from a 4AMS build,

Mr Death, on 03 November 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

You've clearly missed the point that there is still no 3 ams IS mechs and there is an incoming 4 ams clan mech. AND Clan dominates the ECM scene.

well IS have 16 Chassis with ECM, where as Clans only have 8Chassis with ECM,
so im not sure how you get that Clan is Dominating the ECM Scene?

JackalBeast, on 03 November 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

The better question is; Why is the Cicada X5 the only mech on the Inner Shere side the only mech without AMS?

i agree the X5 really needs to get its AMS as its the only Mech in MWO that doesnt have Access to it,
(side note the Bushwacker doesnt have Access to LasAMS as its AMS is in the head and LasAMS cant fit there)

[Khobai]

Quote

Quick play is the most frequently used mode in MWo. Quick Play is where the vast majority of players are participating in matches at any given time.

IS vs Clan still needs to be balanced for faction warfare though.

Just because most people play quickplay doenst mean faction warfare shouldnt be balanced.

Quote

In quickplay a team is mixed clan and Inner Sphere so...your primary point is by and large moot. Since clan missiles can very easily be faced off against a Multi AMS clan platform.

How is my point moot? Clan missiles arnt good in quickplay either. Specifically because of AMS.

Quote

And...ripple fire makes those clan LRMs more vulnerable to AMS but,half the weight per launcher?...omni-pod optimization to maximize hardpoint selection? what cost does this have? is there a downside? maybe it's the AMS vulnerability?

Obviously theyre vulnerable to AMS. Did you figure that out on your own or after I said it 5 times in previous posts in this thread?

Their vulnerability to AMS is specifically why theyre bad.

Clan players feel forced into laser vomit for a reason. Because their missiles and non-gauss ballistics suck.

IS players complain about laser vomit but want to make clan missiles worse and encourage lasers more? That makes no sense...

If anything clan players need to be encouraged to use laser less and other weapons more.

Edited by Khobai, 03 November 2017 - 02:52 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 03 November 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

yeah if you use garbage omnipods that usually have no other hardpoints on them

Except the IS mechs with 2 AMS usually have garbage hardpoints too.

I would *love* to be able to drop AMS from most my IS mechs and take an arm/ST with more hardpoints.

[Khobai]

Quote

Except the IS mechs with 2 AMS usually have garbage hardpoints too.

yeah but even the best IS mechs always have 1 AMS

the best omnipod configurations for omnimechs dont even have 1 AMS usually


also clans need more AMS on certain mechs to shoot down the better LRMs that IS gets. As well as to make up for the fact that other omnimechs often have 0 AMS.

whereas IS dont need better AMS because clan missiles are much easier to shoot down. plus every IS mech (except that one cicada) is capable of carrying at least 1 AMS.

dont know why thats so hard to understand.


theres also the fact that clan missiles !@#$ing suck and making them worse is just stupid. if all you want clanners to use is laser vomit, then nerfing clan missiles even more is a good way to accomplish that.

Edited by Khobai, 03 November 2017 - 03:01 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 03 November 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

IS vs Clan still needs to be balanced for faction warfare though.

Just because most people play quickplay doenst mean faction warfare shouldnt be balanced.



How is my point moot? Clan missiles arnt good in quickplay either. Specifically because of AMS.



Obviously theyre vulnerable to AMS. Did you figure that out on your own or after I said it 5 times in previous posts in this thread?

Their vulnerability to AMS is specifically why theyre bad.

Clan players feel forced into laser vomit for a reason. Because their missiles and non-gauss ballistics suck.

IS players complain about laser vomit but want to make clan missiles worse and encourage lasers more? That makes no sense...

If anything clan players need to be encouraged to use laser less and other weapons more.

Sorta.

Clan ballistics are not terrible, just not great. Clan missiles, same thing - you can run 80 tubes on a 65 tonner with plenty of ammo, it makes up for a lot. Clan SRM boats are absolutely brutal.

However their lasers are just flat out all around better than anything else in the game. IS or Clan. Clan lasers, or even better lasers + gauss, let you puke up 60-90 pts of heat-manageable hitscan damage at 500+m. OR boat 9 MPLs for 63 pts over about 1 second 3 or 4 times before heatcap.

Clans use lasers because Clan lasers are the best weapons in the game, along with Clan gauss.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 03 November 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

yeah but even the best IS mechs always have 1 AMS

the best omnipod configurations for omnimechs dont even have 1 AMS usually


also IS missiles dont get shot down as easily by AMS because they dont ripple fire. clans need better AMS to shoot down the better LRMs.

The best Clan mech is flat out superior to the best IS mech everywhere save the Assassin, which has pretty broken hitboxes, especially when feathering the JJs. A Clan mech with a slightly inferior omnipod is still on par with the best IS mech. Also most the best Clan mechs are battlemechs and have AMS.

Just sayin'.

Clan missiles are individually inferior but make up for it by being 1/2 the weight. So a Clan mech can lose 50% more missiles than an IS mech and still put out the same damage and, thanks to CXL/CEndo/CDHS can manage the higher heat too.

IS and Clan LRMs are crap though compared to direct fire so it's like comparing which hemorrhoids itch worse.

[Khobai]

Quote

IS and Clan LRMs are crap though compared to direct fire so it's like comparing which hemorrhoids itch worse.

which is why Im against everything that makes missiles worse.

missiles need to be better.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Clan missiles are individually inferior but make up for it by being 1/2 the weight. So a Clan mech can lose 50% more missiles than an IS mech and still put out the same damage and, thanks to CXL/CEndo/CDHS can manage the higher heat too.

That tends to break down past LRM 60 or so, really. And if you're losing tubes it's generally because you lost a ST, so your heat advantage gets stuffed in the process. Heck, I've actually melted down on Mordor after losing a ST on a Supernova because, well- not enough cooling anymore. At that point, IS launchers often do better simply because they're firing fewer, better launchers.

For sheer missile spam, math says "Clan better". Performancewise, that's not always the case.

[MischiefSC]

Brain Cancer, on 03 November 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

That tends to break down past LRM 60 or so, really. And if you're losing tubes it's generally because you lost a ST, so your heat advantage gets stuffed in the process. Heck, I've actually melted down on Mordor after losing a ST on a Supernova because, well- not enough cooling anymore. At that point, IS launchers often do better simply because they're firing fewer, better launchers.

For sheer missile spam, math says "Clan better". Performancewise, that's not always the case.

Aside from the Awesome there's no IS assault that's very good with LRMs. Too slow, because you can't safely run an XL.

SNV is better at 90 tons than any IS assault is, aside possibly from the Awesome.

Awesome is just quirked so hard for LRMs - and it's still bad.

SNV with ATMs though? You could almost feel guilty for how fast stuff dissolves.

[BrunoSSace]

I own a few dual ams mechs. Crab, Grasshopper, wolfhound. They all have the same thing in common. They are all energy load outs. With quirks I can pretty much shut down 2 Clan Lrm boats with quirks. I cant even imagine what it would be like with 3 ams. It be pure bliss lol.