22 replies to this topic

[Tereva]

Hi all,


I am looking for a mech with enough mobility to be able to flank and enough firepower to be noticed when it hits the side / back of another mech.

It seems to me that a lot of pilots trade shots in frontal battles and are not aware that maps are wide enough to move around groups.
In almost all games I manage to get behind a couple of guys, however I am playing slowish mechs at the moment, so it's difficult to relocate or just retreat (aka run away) efficiently.

I am not looking for a zippy mech that can chase lights. Just enough mobility to relocate when needed.

Any beast fits the bill?

Shoot straight

T.

[arcana75]

What size? Linebacker heavy does 97 out of the box, most clan heavies do 81.

[Tesunie]

Many solid mediums and lights can fulfill that role, as well as some Heavies. So, the question is what are you looking for? Clan or IS?

For Clan, the Linebacker comes to mind. I have mine set up for mid ranged combat, which does facilitate the possibility to flank and/or get into someone's backside without getting yourself killed in the process. It's got 2 HLLs and 3 ERMLs, which is a 57 point alpha (if I recall correctly). People WILL notice that, or they will die. Alpha twice/three times and then duck and hide. You can get an additional alpha by popping a coolshot. (With cooling skills taken.)

The Arctic Wolf (currently only available by Mech Pack purchase) can also achieve those speeds with a similar punch of 2 HLLs and 2 ERMLs. A little less punch, but not by much. I also have a Huntsmen that has a similar build, but it's a little slow to be trying such a stunt.


For IS side, I can think of my current Raven build. It's got 2 LLs and 2 ERMLs. For an IS light, it punches like a medium mech it seems. I have an XL engine in it and it currently runs 112 KPH, which is slow for most light mechs, but fast enough to get behind someone and do a good threatening job at it. If I recall correctly, that's a 28 point alpha and it runs rather cool.

I also have a Crab that moves at 81 KPH (a bit slow for the task, but doable much like the Huntsmen), which packs a Light 275 engine with 2 LLs and 4 ERMLs. Runs a little warm, but if you space your shots once you start getting hot, it packs a very good mid range punch that can run coolish. Add in those health quirks currently... and it's a bit of a beast. (My opinion.)

A Cicada could certainly do the job, with 6 MLs (or even ERMLs) and a large and fast XL engine...


That's just some of what I happen to use . I'm sure other people have even more suggestions.

[arcana75]

If you want a fast, sturdy mech to do flanking and be sneaky about it, a fast medium ballistic mech is ideal as ballistics don't give away your position as easily as lasers or PPCs. You also want ECM and ECM skillnodes. So a fast sturdy ballistics ECM mech... Actually, the Black Lanner is a 113kph ECM and MASC capable 55t medium, and because it's an Omnimech you can mount any combination of weaponry you want. Doesn't have JJs though and you'll need arms from the reinforcement variants for ballistics.

The Hellbringer omnimech can field ECM and ballistics, and it's 81kph.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Any mech can flank, from Locust to Dire Wolf.

It's just that some mechs do that more effectively than others, as your teammates won't often flank with you. And if there's one thing most players really love and get exited over, is jumping in as a group againts one single mech. Good or bad, they always do it. So it's rather dangerous, that's why most people stay with the group.

I would suggest you try flanking with whateer you currently have. Though you might need to adjust loadouts a bit.

[Rogue Jedi]

Tereva, on 07 November 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

Hi all,


I am looking for a mech with enough mobility to be able to flank and enough firepower to be noticed when it hits the side / back of another mech.

It seems to me that a lot of pilots trade shots in frontal battles and are not aware that maps are wide enough to move around groups.
In almost all games I manage to get behind a couple of guys, however I am playing slowish mechs at the moment, so it's difficult to relocate or just retreat (aka run away) efficiently.

I am not looking for a zippy mech that can chase lights. Just enough mobility to relocate when needed.

Any beast fits the bill?

I would look at;

Light Mechs including;
Arctic Cheetah, Javlin, Firestarter, Panther, Wolfhound, Jenner, Jenner IIC,

Medium Mechs including;
Cicada, Viper, Blackjack, Phoenix Hawk, Hunchback, Hunchback IIC, Centurian, Crab, Nova, Huntsman, Shadow Hawk, Griffin, Wolverine, Stormcrow,

Heavy Mechs including;
Linebacker, Dragon, Quickdraw, Rifleman, Jagermech, Catapult, Jagermech, Ebon Jaguar, Hellbringer, Summoner, Archer, Warhammer, Marauder, Timber Wolf.

Assualt Mechs including
Warhawk, Battlemaster, Marauder IIC, Mad Cat MK II, Cyclops, Kodiak
I am only listing Mechs currently available for cbills
I am probably missing a few good contenders but all of those chassis have at least 1 varient which could be configured to fit the role depending on precisely what you want to do
I have seen extremely efective flanking attacks lead by Atlas and Dire Wolf, although I do not consider those chassis to be ideal for the role

arcana75, on 07 November 2017 - 11:46 PM, said:

If you want a fast, sturdy mech to do flanking and be sneaky about it, a fast medium ballistic mech is ideal as ballistics don't give away your position as easily as lasers or PPCs. You also want ECM and ECM skillnodes. So a fast sturdy ballistics ECM mech...

to flank you do not need ECM, it can be done with a fast missile boat, something like a GRF-3M can be nasty ^{(3m because of the deadside, which is far more useful to me than the ECM of the 2N)} as could the Jenner IIC, the JR7-IIC can pack a 72 point alpha strike, that is enough to put down most assualt Mechs assuming they follow the trend of putting minimal armor on the back, however you would have to make some serious compromises on speed, armor or ammo to put on that many SRM tubes on a Light Mech.

Quote

Actually, the Black Lanner is a 113kph ECM and MASC capable 55t medium, and because it's an Omnimech you can mount any combination of weaponry you want. Doesn't have JJs though and you'll need arms from the reinforcement variants for ballistics.

I have ordered the Black Lanner and absolutely agree that it should be a good flanker, however it will not be out until Feburary (or August for Cbills), I just wanted to make sure Tereva knew that, it would not be the first time someone buys an unreleased preorder Mech and is not happy to realise he/she will not get it for a few months

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 08 November 2017 - 10:41 AM.

[Brizna]

I'd like to mention Shadow Cat as a prime example of a good flanking mech.

Has base speed, MASC and JJs to position quikly AND very importantly to flee if the enemy comes for you (this is where flanking DWF fails btw .P )
It has a decent POD space to pack a nice punch.
And it has ECM which is very effective in SOLO queue at providing stealth and preventing knowledge of your position to spread among the enemy team.

[Tereva]

Hi all,

This is exactly my issue, when I flank I'm usually alone because most stays in the main "lane".
I might be with a couple of lights but they will scatter fast if we meet a group of three or four mech.
I flank a lot with my mad cat, but I got jumped by groups a couple of times or found myself too far from the action. The rest of the time it's epic though

Anyways, I need something a bit faster / nimble.

Very good point regarding ballistic vs laser for being sneaky.

So, I need to find a medium / heavy nimble enough and with ballistic.

Noted about the black Lanner. It does look great. Annoying that I need the reinforcement for the ballistic arms.
What is the opinion on the hero? He does have ballistic too.

Shoot straight

T.

Edited by Tereva, 08 November 2017 - 08:09 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Tereva, on 08 November 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

Noted about the black Lanner. It does look great. Annoying that I need the reinforcement for the ballistic arms.
What is the opinion on the hero? He does have ballistic too.

The Black Lanner, as I mentioned in my earlier post is currently in the preorder phase, you do get some goodies if you order this month including paints, decails, the Jade Falcon faction cammo unlock for that chassis, however it will not be in game until Feburary, so no-one will know how it realy performs until then.
it looks good but a Mech can look briliant on paper and turn out to be worthless in game.

Looking at its stats it should perform like a fast Medium with Light Mech style speed acceleration and agility in short bursts thanks to its MASC.
as soon as I saw 118KPH with MASC I purchased, it will be faster than the Shadow Cat and handle about as well thanks to MASC but it has 8 tons less podspace despite being 10 tons heavier, this is because of the rediculous engine.

the Hero has 6 B hardpoints, but the Black Lanner will not have much pod space, it is an omnimech meaning you are stuck with that huge engine, and assuming you want max armor you cannot fit anything bigger than an AC5 or a PPC, stock it drops 2 tons of armor to give a total of 12 tons of podspace, without ammo a Clan AC20 or Gauss Rifle weigh 12 tons, an AC10 weighs 10 tons.
the Black Lanner should excel with lighter weapons but the most it can realisticly bring in terms of non laser firepower is 2 ERPPCs ^{(which would give 20 pinpoint damage + to damage dispersed over 2 connected componants)}

The Shadow Cat is already available for Cbills, I discounted it above because it cannot bring the huge Alpha Strike you seemed to want, it can mount ECM with the same 2 ERPPCs and have tonage left over for Machine Guns or SRMs/ATMs, or more heat sinks, not quite as fast as Black Lanner though.

from above posts it seems you need faster than the Timber Wolf that significantly narrows things down, if you also do not want something that handles like a Light that further narrows things down, so we now have a much more managable set of Mechs

Phoenix Hawk, Shadow Cat, Crab, Hunchback, Hunchback IIC, Storm Crow, Shadow Hawk, Griffin, Wolverine, Quick Draw, Dragon, Linebacker

if you also wanted ECM that would just leave the Shadow Cat and Phoenix Hawk

assuming you do not care about ECM lets look further into what you seemed to want from above posts
if you want big balistic Alpha strikes ^{(I am not counting Machine guns)} that elemanates all the above, if however you are open to a single B backed with a PPC or some missiles ^{(you specificly mentioned not wanting lasers)} that further narrows it down

Phoenix Hawk, Shadow Cat, Hunchback, Hunchback IIC, Stormcrow, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, Dragon, Linebacker

if you want Jumpjets to help with repositioning that eliminates several more leaving
Phoenix Hawk, Shadow Cat, Hunchback IIC, Shadow Hawk.

I know I am probably confusing things further but I just want to make sure you understand the options

if you want huge cripple/kill the enemy in 2-3 hits firepower I would sugest you go with HBK-IIC- with max engine (stock they come with a 200 engine for 64kph, a 250 would give same speed as your Timber, to go noticably faster they need max engine, I would sugest 3 PPCs and lots of heatsinks or 1 PPC + Gauss or 20 class AC, with 3 PPCs fire 2 then half a second later the third to avoid heat penalties, you are laying down 30 base damage + 15 splash damage over less than a second, most Mechs take 10 points or less back armor and a 100 ton Mech (without skills or structure quirks) has 62 CT structure, wo usualy you can kill a 100 ton Mech through its rear CT with less than 80 damage

if you want speed, superior ability to reposition and stealth but do not mind taking a few more shots to kill an enemy Mech go with the Shadow Cat (any varient) with PPCs and maybe the ECM from the -b left torso

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 08 November 2017 - 10:45 AM.

[arcana75]

If you want to do sneak flanking it's pointless to be able to go in but not come out alive. So egress is just as important as the ingress and alpha strike. The worst thing to happen if a light keeping you locked while back line LRMs murder you. That's where ECM helps cuz you can deal with the light at close range so he can't lock you, then flee LRM boats who can't lock into you.

JJ are good for egress cuz u can jump over something and break pursuit quickly, and might make fleeing from a faster light easier if they don't have JJs. Otherwise it's better off to draw the light away then deal with it alone and away from the enemy force. A couple of streaks or SRMs to the legs usually chase off pursuing lights esp if you're a healthy medium or heavy as most light pilots go for weakened opponents.

One important thing about sneaky flanks is learning to hold fire until the right moment. Since alot of pilots don't take seismic, they can't see enemies in their rear or sides. ECM helps alot with this, but generally the dream shot is a huge SRM alpha to the back. If you want to pop shots and hide, confusing the enemy, ballistics.

I think you have all the necessary ingredients. Good luck!

PS one thing not mentioned is Stealth Armour but it's only available on IS lights, but it's the best for sneaking behind enemy lines.

PPS there's also brawl flanking ie a quick flank while in brawl range. You need a reasonably fast mech, good awareness and UAV. While the main line or an enemy mech is focused on a direction, quickly duck behind cover, flank and attack, forcing the enemy to focus on 2 fronts. UAVs are good to read enemy positions and numbers before doing this.

Edited by arcana75, 08 November 2017 - 06:07 PM.

[Tereva]

Ty for all the advice. I am thinking that maybe I am overthinking this. I just need a reasonably fast light with some teeth to be annoying to the other team.

It seems that the flavor of the time being is the Arctic Cheetah. Any variant considered better? What about the Hero?

Cheers,

T.

[Rogue Jedi]

arcana75, on 08 November 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

PS one thing not mentioned is Stealth Armour but it's only available on IS lights, but it's the best for sneaking behind enemy lines.

Stealth Armor is not only available on IS Lights, it can be fitted to any IS Mech with ECM, so most IS Light Mech varients cannot fit it, while Cicada, Phoenix Hawn, Griffin, Cataphract, Stalker, Cyclops and Atlas each have a varient that can.

Stealth armor makes your Mech completely invisible to sensors but the Mech is still visible to the eye, it can be neutrilized by a TAG ^{(as long as the laser is held on target)}, NARC ^{(as long as the beacon remains active)} or a hit from a PPC ^{(for, I think 5, seconds)}
you would turn stealth armor on to hide, but bear in mind your Mech cannot get locks of disipate heat while the armor is active, so it will eventuraly overheat and shut down from the heat generated by moving arround, if you fire weapons that drasticly reduces the ammount of time Stealth Armor can remain active.

[Rogue Jedi]

Tereva, on 08 November 2017 - 11:02 PM, said:

Ty for all the advice. I am thinking that maybe I am overthinking this. I just need a reasonably fast light with some teeth to be annoying to the other team.

It seems that the flavor of the time being is the Arctic Cheetah. Any variant considered better? What about the Hero?

Cheers,

T.

the Arctic Cheetah is an omnimech so it does not matter which varient you get as you can mix and match componants to get the hardpoints you want.
the Shard hero does not look bad but the only thing it offers which the cbill varients do not is the 30% cbill bonus.
for a flanking ACH I would do something like this

another valid option would be a dive bomber Jenner IIC, thanks to its shape you will have to activly protect your center torso but it is very deadly if you can get behind the enemy Mech

[Tereva]

Hey Rogue,

Omg, the Jenner IIC dive bomber build looks like a killer ! Ty for sharing.

ok, I have two question about the omnitech thing,

- That are the "lower arm" and "hand" check-boxes for?
- When you mix pods aren;t you supposed to lose the quirk of the mech?

If I use the exact same build on the Artic Cheetah but with the Hero CT, the only change will be the 30% c-bill bonus? Nothing else?


I kept playing with my idea of a medium / heavy flanker with ballistic. I have the NOVA. What about this build?
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8c2fa62be426a05
I used the NVA-B CT for its ballistic cool-down quirk.

I currently use a Nova prime dual PPC that is a lot of fun, but I realized that the arms of the NOVA-A have a PPC bonus. I do not know if I need to change all the mech to NOVA-A to get the bonus though (cf my question above).

Thx again !

Shoot straight

T.

[Brizna]

Without actuators arms can only move up and down, every actuator you add gives you increasing room to move your arms laterally, the drawback is that each actuator uses one crit slot which can be important to some builds.

There are pod quirks and set of 8 quirks, pod quirks apply as long you have the POD equipped, set of 8 only if you have all 8 matching PODs.

[Husker Dude]

I feel like I just posted this exact thing on the 50-60 ton mech thread, but re-positioning/flanking is basically what the Dragon does.

[Tereva]

Brizna, on 10 November 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

There are pod quirks and set of 8 quirks, pod quirks apply as long you have the POD equipped, set of 8 only if you have all 8 matching PODs.

Ty, I see. How do you know if a quirks is a pod quirk or part of a set of 8?
In smurfy when the quirk is followed by "(CT, LA, CT, RT, etc)" it's the pod quirk?

Husker Dude, on 10 November 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

I feel like I just posted this exact thing on the 50-60 ton mech thread, but re-positioning/flanking is basically what the Dragon does.

I am following that thread closely

The dragon, I call it the preggie mech . I does have a bad reputation as you mentioned in the other thread.
What would you use, something like that: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4c5bd85b2a3a975 ?

Shoot straight

T.

[Rogue Jedi]

Tereva, on 10 November 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

Ty, I see. How do you know if a quirks is a pod quirk or part of a set of 8?
In smurfy when the quirk is followed by "(CT, LA, CT, RT, etc)" it's the pod quirk?

yes

Smurfy does not seem to list set of 8 quirks.

In the Mechlab the set of 8 quirks is specificaly listed against the pod, if you do not have the full set it it is greyed out, if you do have it it is lit up, if in the Mechlab I look at my Viper Prime and put my mouse over the Right Arm it shows its own quirks then greyed out it has "set of 8" then lists the additional quirks you get if you use all 8.

as for the question regarding the Hero, the Center Torso identifies any earnings boosts.
provided you have the hero CT do not need any other pods from the Hero to get that boost, and even If you put all 7 hero pods on another CT you do not get any earnings boost from those pods.

[Koniving]

There's two ways to check. Both are a pain. Three if you count Smurfy as Smurfy will only list pod quirks.
1) If you highlight an omnipod in the mechlab it will tell you the quirks associated with it in green. If the quirk is there but doesn't apply due to not having the set of 8, it will be greyed out.

2) You can check the Mech Stats screen in mechlab by clicking the "Expand" button (looks like a full screen set of dual arrows) and then scrolling down to quirks. As you add parts, quirks will appear. Set of 8 quirks show here like normal quirks and disappear as soon as it is violated.

[Koniving]

If you are having trouble with Light coordination, here's a tip.

Yesterday I played a few matches as a Turtlemando (Commando with turtle armor [extremely high rear, little front).
The first one, I noticed after someone recognized my name, they all kinda followed me. So I took command in text (my computer is on top of a tall bookshelf to keep it out of my toddler's hands and my headset doesn't reach; I need a wireless headset). I gave the following orders in exactly this form into lance chat.

Attack spotted on Affirm.
Legs.
(Spots target.)
(No one moved in but kept with me.)
(We waited, I respotted two or three times while confirming the assault was isolated).
(Gave the Affirmative).

The entire lance moved in and we began hitting the legs, running in circles and whenever possible one or more of us would slow down to deliver a hefty payload before he turned to face us and then we'd run while another took their turn, on and on until it's dead.

At least that was the plan. And we did kill him. But as we were doing it the Dire Wolf had called for help. A stalker answered. We could handle that so we pressed it. But then two mediums and a light answered. I gave the following command in chat.

Pull out.

One light followed me. I gave the command again, this time with a Command Wheel "Negative" to get attention and followed with "Too many." Me and the guy following me went back into that fray and we were able to get a second guy out. Now three of us, we got out of enemy fire and waited. The last guy did not follow and is still fighting for his life. We tried two more times for a total of five times issuing the order to "Pull out" "Stop Fighting" "Too dangerous" and a third attempt to rush in, rescue him and give him a chance to run. At that point we cut our losses and ran and began swarming other enemies closer to the front line to provide support to our heavier lances that were in heavy combat.

That light soon died and said "Thanks for abandoning me, some team" and quit before we could say that we tried to save him three times.

I have two points to this. One, if you take command, regardless of whether people recognize you or not, some players will go along with it if you seem to have a plan. Coordinate as best as you can.
The second point is no matter how hard you try, some people either won't go along with it, won't clue in, or are too busy to see or hear your instructions. Don't let it get to you, sometimes stuff happens.

So whether you take charge or someone in your team takes charge, go along with it. Sometimes just asking something like "Someone want to take charge?" or "Mind if I lead our lance?" will go a long way. Just don't start with "Plan?" if you want someone else to lead as you'll get the joke answer "Kill stuff."