15 replies to this topic

[Sneaky Ohgoorchik]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...824e2bb84d9eaba

The problem was:

MRMs seem to overheat mech at 55%+. Without damage to engines.

So, i have 55% of heat, im shooting my 30 and 40 mrms simultaneously and it knocks me out. When mech turns on again, im at 55% of heat, my engines are no damage. Im shooting again with 30 and 40 mrms, and again im turned off (and again and again).

When im shooting mrms with 0% heat, i gain less than 10% heat.

I also have er larges on my mech - they shoot fine, i can shoot them without overheating over 55% and all the way up normally.

The mech is BLR-1s.

Update: I tryed to do it in testing grounds mode on some different loadouts and was unable to recreate the situation. I was able to shoot mrm30/40/10/10 in one salvo over 55% normally (two shots till shutting down). And in chainfire mode too (almost heatstable). When mech turns on - its around 80% heat, so its ok now. Btw i learned that mrms doesn't do damage(or sometimes do a really small amount) while overheating - just shutting down safely. I guess everything works fine.

Edited by RunningAcid, 10 November 2017 - 07:02 AM.

[iofhua]

It would help if you could go to mechlab and link us to your build.

This probably isn't your build, but I am using this as an example:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bd7ad6d33165f19

A 100 damage alpha looks good on paper, but a MRM 30 causes 9 heat, and a MRM 40 causes 11.5 heat. Firing more than 40 MRM missiles total in a salvo also causes ghost heat. So 1 MRM 40 launcher is at the cap for heat efficiency. After that, any additional MRM missiles fired cause exponentially more heat to your mech.

There's no way that mech I just linked could fire all it's weapons without overheating.

So you would fire the MRM 40 - 11.5 heat
Then you fire the MRM 30 - 9 more heat, plus ghost heat

That's where I guess the problem is, you're running into ghost heat.

[Sneaky Ohgoorchik]

its pretty correct build http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bd7ad6d33165f19

But by no mean im heating to 100%. Im off and on immedeatly without taking damage, or visually hitting 100% heat. My mech is on at 55% - i can't cool that fast.

So, no damage everheating, heat cap at 55% - thats unusual.

Edited by RunningAcid, 08 November 2017 - 09:35 AM.

[Magnumaniac]

That linked build has a heat capacity of 48.4 - if you are already at 55%, that is 26.6. so "free" heat capacity is ~18. Even without ghost heat the MRMs generate 29.5 heat if fired - so yeah, you're going to shut down.

RunningAcid, on 08 November 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

When im shooting mrms with 0% heat, i gain less than 10% heat.

That cannot possibly be correct with a build featuring only 10 standard heatsinks.

Something is screwy here - the only part that seems to work correctly is that you are shutting down as expected.

[Sneaky Ohgoorchik]

Magnumaniac, on 08 November 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

MRMs generate 29.5 heat if fired

but it says 11 in mrm 40 description. I mean where can i look a heatspike size? Also, why i don't take damage and don't hit 100% heat?

[Sneaky Ohgoorchik]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...824e2bb84d9eaba

thats a correct 15 double hs built

Edited by RunningAcid, 08 November 2017 - 10:18 AM.

[Sneaky Ohgoorchik]

I guess i need to know ghost heat better. Thank you for answers.

[iofhua]

That one has a higher heat capacity and better heat dissipation than the build I linked earlier.

It still has ghost heat, and you shouldn't underestimate that. The thing is I don't know how MWO handles ghost heat with missile launchers. Is it per launcher, or per missile?

If it's per missile, then the way ghost heat works is it adds increasing heat for each additional thing fired. So you would get a little heat with the first extra missile, then more the next, then more the next. 30 additional missiles would add a crap ton of heat this way.

But I don't know for sure if it's per missile.

I would recommend buying some different sized launchers and tooling around in the testing grounds with different launcher configurations and see exactly how many you can fire at once without overheating.

Edited by iofhua, 08 November 2017 - 10:44 AM.

[Magnumaniac]

ok, that build makes more sense. Which map were you experiencing this on?

If it was a cold or ambient temp map, then you should not be shutting down by firing those 2 MRMs (which should generate a little over 22 heat including ghost heat) from a 55% start point (26.5 free heat cap). Could still happen on hot maps (caustic, tourmaline etc).

Are you sure you were not alpha striking in error (i.e. firing both LLs at the same time)?
You don't always take damage from overheating (if you only just go over 100%), but the always coming back at 55% suggests that something else is happening here.

I still don't see how firing them from zero can generate less than 10% heat though. I would also recommend more testing in various different test maps to get an idea of how your mech should behave at different temperatures.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

iofhua, on 08 November 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

It still has ghost heat, and you shouldn't underestimate that. The thing is I don't know how MWO handles ghost heat with missile launchers. Is it per launcher, or per missile?

Per weapon.

But there is peculiar thing that with certain weapons, if you overheat and shut down, the weapon that caused to shut down, might not fire properly. It might then not thus fire at all and even not generate heat, which would explain why an overheated mech resumes at 55% heat.

It might be little bit hard to explain, easiest is just not to overheat by such large margin.



http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale

Smurfy calls it heat penalty, we call it ghost heat. Ingame client calls it higher than normal heat spike. All same thing.

So actually firing 2 MRM40 only gives 1.61 extra heat. That's not really a major thing. You could avoid it whole as using 2x30, or even 3x20, or you could have 2x40 and fire them separately.
Even when you fire them together, which you should avoid, but if you still do it, it won't cause so much extra heat that it would be a significant problem by itself.

But, firing either 2xMRM30, or MRM40+MRM30, will even without ghost heat or much of it, cause a lot of heat. That can make your mech power down, while it's kinda firing those weapons, but at the same time, due to way of how it's actually implmented, as well as the low tube count of the battlemaster, it can actually result those weapons not being fully fired. And that after your mech resumes from shutdown, it might not have much heat.


And why firing MRM40 +MRM30 generates so little heat when you are at low heat? Well, that's mainly because of low tube count, it will cause those missiless to shoot off so slow, that the mech is starting to cool off before all of the missiless have actually fired. For this reason your battlemaster would do better with 3xMRM20, using both arms and one in torso. It will still be limited by tubes, but not so much.

It's a little bit guess work as I haven't used anything like that.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 09 November 2017 - 03:04 AM.

[Koniving]

RunningAcid, on 08 November 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...824e2bb84d9eaba

MRMs seem to overheat mech at 55%+. Without damage to engines.

So, i have 55% of heat, im shooting my 30 and 40 mrms simultaneously and it knocks me out. When mech turns on again, im at 55% of heat, my engines are no damage. Im shooting again with 30 and 40 mrms, and again im turned off (and again and again).

When im shooting mrms with 0% heat, i gain less than 10% heat.

I also have er larges on my mech - they shoot fine, i can shoot them without overheating over 55% and all the way up normally.

The mech is BLR-1s.

What is the problem?

Problem 1:
Ghost heat. You're getting punished for firing more than one large scale MRM at once. Firing the two at the same time you are getting 24.61 heat instead of just 20.5 heat.

Problem 2) Furthermore, your mech has a threshold of 30 (base) + 29 (combined heatsinks, internal and external) so your maximum heat permitted is 59. At 55% you're at 32.45 units of heat. Add another 24.61 puts you at 57.06 heat. You're probably slightly above 55% heat. Now map changes this, too. Some maps lower your cooling rate and your maximum heat, and some maps will raise it. Keep in mind that moving also raises your heat by something around 5 units if moving at full speed with a 320 engine.

Problem 3) Your mech is terribly heat inefficient. To improve this you could change the loadout slightly (two large lasers instead of ER Large Lasers would reduce the heat substantially) or chain fire your MRMs. (You should be chain firing them anyway, their hit detection is terrible when firing them all at once, causing you to lose substantial damage potential per firing cycle).

(Edit: This is according to the meters showing your heat efficiency which are assuming that you are going to fire all your weapons as fast as you possibly can, which you probably do not do. Any heat efficiency above 29% [Smurfy] or 1.3 [MWO mechlab] can be effective if you manage your firepower. As you noted yourself 2 ER LLs do not heat you much [but keep in mind you are cooling that total heat even as the beam is firing, where the MRMs generate it all at once instead of overtime).

Welcome to the reality of heat management. When the game tells you that your heat efficiency sucks, you may want to listen to it. Aim for an efficiency of 1.4 or higher in game, or 45% or higher in Megamek. Anything less and you need to seriously consider hit and RUN LIKE THE WIND tactics.

I hope this helps.

Edited by Koniving, 09 November 2017 - 01:28 PM.

[Koniving]

There is one more thing to add...

The offset of the MRMs firing rates on top of ghost heat, you can have them fire within 0.5 seconds of each other and be fine, but if they fire closer than that, they will trigger ghost heat. If they continue to fire offset and you are holding the button, it won't stop ghost heating and instead increase the multiplier. You may, after just a few shots, count as having fired 4 to 5 MRMs at once, instantly shutting you down. Just 3's punishment is over 75% of your max heat, 4 is almost 97% by itself, and 5 would instantly detonate your mech.

If you MUST use two MRMs, I suggest having identical launchers (that way they always just count as firing two at once), or using the "Backspace" option to set them to chain fire at exactly 0.5 seconds apart when holding the button to prevent the ghost heat bugs from getting to you.

And if nothing else, LET GO of the firing button for your missiles! Just tap.

[Tarogato]

RunningAcid, on 08 November 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

its pretty correct build http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bd7ad6d33165f19

But by no mean im heating to 100%. Im off and on immedeatly without taking damage, or visually hitting 100% heat. My mech is on at 55% - i can't cool that fast.

So, no damage everheating, heat cap at 55% - thats unusual.

Could you record a video of this? Sounds like you've run across a bug that we've been trying to pin down for months but we haven't been able to reproduce it at will. Perhaps you figured it out?

If you have an Nvidia card, they have free recording software you can download. So does AMD.

If you're running an older or unsupported card, OBS is free recording software as well and I recommend it.

[Koniving]

RunningAcid, on 08 November 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

its pretty correct build http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bd7ad6d33165f19

But by no mean im heating to 100%. Im off and on immedeatly without taking damage, or visually hitting 100% heat. My mech is on at 55% - i can't cool that fast.

So, no damage everheating, heat cap at 55% - thats unusual.

So it turns off at 55%?

Is this consistent? Because now it sounds like the shutdown bug.

I can't find the video now, but basically it's a bug that will change "100%" to be anywhere below 80%, and so when you hit that number, say 55%, you'd shut down every time. That bug also did damage, etc., because it simply moved 100% down.

Whatever your heatcap is though, I must point out that you cool while powered down so powered up at 55% means you did in fact shutdown higher than that. Even if not at 100%.

[gamingogre]

Two 30MRMs would be much better than a 40 and a 30.

[Sneaky Ohgoorchik]

I tryed to do it in testing grounds mode on some different loadouts and was unable to recreate the situation. I was able to shoot mrm30/40/10/10 in one salvo over 55% normally (two shots till shutting down). And in chainfire mode too (almost heatstable). When mech turns on - its around 80% heat, so its ok now. I guess everything works fine.

Btw i learned that mrms doesn't do damage(or sometimes do a really small amount) while overheating - just shutting down safely.