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How To "fix" Polar Highlands


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#181 Wolfways

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:00 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 18 November 2017 - 06:49 PM, said:


Well, that explains a lot - you missed my point entirely. My post wasn't ever just about LRMs.

I never said it was just about LRM's as you mentioned long range combat.
But then you also said:

View PostNightmare1, on 18 November 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:


Exactly!

Even the new Rubellite map, as much as I like it, is another long-range fest. I can see where, pretty soon, both teams will do the same thing that they do on Frozen where they just pick the high points on opposite sides of the map and then trade.

I am looking forward to the dense city map that PGI is supposed to be developing though. If we can get a map that's dedicated to brawlers, then I will be able to forgive PGI for pandering to the long-range players so much.

I don't know what's going on in your matches but Rubillite is nothing but brawling, and Frozen City? I've had one match where players sat firing at each other from opposite sides. Every other match is a mix of all ranges.

Nearly every map in the game caters to most playstyles, but more cater especially to brawling.

Edited by Wolfways, 18 November 2017 - 07:01 PM.


#182 Nightmare1

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:48 PM

View PostWolfways, on 18 November 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

I never said it was just about LRM's as you mentioned long range combat.
But then you also said:

I don't know what's going on in your matches but Rubillite is nothing but brawling, and Frozen City? I've had one match where players sat firing at each other from opposite sides. Every other match is a mix of all ranges.

Nearly every map in the game caters to most playstyles, but more cater especially to brawling.


Frozen City and Forest Colony used to be straight up brawling maps, as was Terra Therma. Frozen and Terra have been made into long-range fights where teams sit on opposite sides of a divide and fire back and forth until one team is weakened enough that the other can push it. Forest has become a mid-range skirmishing map, which isn't too bad I suppose.

The Rubillite matches I've had mostly ended up with ranged combat with one team occupying one structure and the other team using the other one with both firing back and forth across the gulf that lies between them.

Frankly, I'd like an underground caverns type of map, the kind where the longest corridor might be 500 meters with most only being about 300 or so. It would be a brutalizing, point-blank knife fight underground and would be an absolute blast!

#183 Wolfways

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:40 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 18 November 2017 - 07:48 PM, said:


Frozen City and Forest Colony used to be straight up brawling maps, as was Terra Therma. Frozen and Terra have been made into long-range fights where teams sit on opposite sides of a divide and fire back and forth until one team is weakened enough that the other can push it. Forest has become a mid-range skirmishing map, which isn't too bad I suppose.

The Rubillite matches I've had mostly ended up with ranged combat with one team occupying one structure and the other team using the other one with both firing back and forth across the gulf that lies between them.

Frankly, I'd like an underground caverns type of map, the kind where the longest corridor might be 500 meters with most only being about 300 or so. It would be a brutalizing, point-blank knife fight underground and would be an absolute blast!

I think the problem is that all maps should cater to all ranges, not this one for short, this one for long, etc. but with the maps being so small that won't happen, and pgi seem set in creating one playstyle/map.

#184 Nightmare1

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 09:05 PM

View PostWolfways, on 18 November 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

I think the problem is that all maps should cater to all ranges, not this one for short, this one for long, etc. but with the maps being so small that won't happen, and pgi seem set in creating one playstyle/map.


Not only that, but range and speed will beat slow tanky brawlers any day if done properly. That's why Clan Mechs are so favored right now.

My buddies and I tested this the other day in a 3v1 match. I took an Atlas brawler against two of their Marauders and a Hellbringer on River City. We went in a brawled and I lost. Of course, in a 3v1 I would lose anyways; winning was not the intent or the point. Instead, we chose 3v1 in order to compare and contrast against similar situations.

For the second match, I took a Linebacker equipped with a Large Pulse Laser and a bunch of ER Mediums. I then proceeded to play keep-away on the map, hosing them from range. The Marauders had PPCs and the Hellbringer had Heavy Lasers, but I was winning until the timer nearly ran out. At that point, I just ran in close so that we could have a fight in the last 60 seconds.

My point with all this, is that a team that coordinates their Mechs appropriately can keep another team at arm's length, all while hammering them from range. Some maps, such as Crimson, River City, and HPG don't have this very much due to the topography and the available cover (It's really only possible on River with small groups - a 12 v 12 would be too large a match, I think). However, maps such as Frozen, Grim, Alpine, and Polar wind up catering to the long range Mechs. Most of the time, it is the cold, long-range maps that are picked because they cater to the range meta in two ways:

1) They are cold, which helps the hot laser meta builds
2) They are large enough for full teams to maneuver and have the mostly unobstructed lines of fire that range players need

Overall, I wish we had more maps like Rubellite, Crimson, and River because they do provide mixed terrain for all of the different load outs. Until then, I'll have to keep putting up with the long-range nonsense while piloting my AC/20 HBK-4G.

#185 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 12:13 PM

Why not make multiple versions of the Polar map? This could be used for other maps too. A few maps already have such but most are like ancient battlefields instead of something that just happened a few days ago.

Have a warship survive reentry, break up and have crashed into Polar.

Have a Behemoth/Colossus/Mammoth/Overload dropships crash into Polar. One and two different dropships.

#186 Khobai

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 12:24 PM

Quote

I think the problem is that all maps should cater to all ranges, not this one for short, this one for long, etc. but with the maps being so small that won't happen, and pgi seem set in creating one playstyle/map.


I completely agree thats why im in favor of destructible terrain.

#187 Wolfways

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 01:31 PM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 19 November 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

Why not make multiple versions of the Polar map? This could be used for other maps too. A few maps already have such but most are like ancient battlefields instead of something that just happened a few days ago.

Have a warship survive reentry, break up and have crashed into Polar.

Have a Behemoth/Colossus/Mammoth/Overload dropships crash into Polar. One and two different dropships.

If you put cover on one side of the map it becomes an "unfair map", but if it's in the center it turns into another nascar map.

#188 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 04:11 PM

View PostWolfways, on 19 November 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

If you put cover on one side of the map it becomes an "unfair map", but if it's in the center it turns into another nascar map.

Intention is to not put most of it in one place but to have it spread out/broken up into more than one piece across the center, breaking up the sight lines. One version would have the pieces strung across the center, another would have it strung diagonally in 4-5 pieces, etc.

Again, it is meant to create a version of the original map without getting rid of the original map. People already nascars on Polar /shudders...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 19 November 2017 - 04:13 PM.


#189 Wolfways

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:19 PM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 19 November 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Intention is to not put most of it in one place but to have it spread out/broken up into more than one piece across the center, breaking up the sight lines. One version would have the pieces strung across the center, another would have it strung diagonally in 4-5 pieces, etc.

Again, it is meant to create a version of the original map without getting rid of the original map. People already nascars on Polar /shudders...

I don't see how you could break up the sight lines any more than it already does, considering that all combat takes place around 500m or less, but I'd be fine with more big open maps like that. It's better than the tiny arenas that pgi keep making.

Also, people nascar on Polar in your matches? That must suck.

#190 Defender Rococo Rockfowl

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 12:42 AM

View PostWolfways, on 17 November 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

I agree completely.

Also, Lyons was a hero and the so-called Outcasts are traitors.

Posted Image

Despite my name, I completely agree with you that Lyon is a hero. The Outcasts aren’t really traitors...to the BoS out west. That being said, I actually like the East Coast BoS more.
Outcast armor looks more basadd though ;)

And to underscore what some others said: Polar is fine and helps teach positioning even when the enemy
Isn

Back on the topic of Polar:
Some people have suggested allowing us to pick our mechs after knowing the map. It’s a good idea.
And even though pgi listened to the community and implemented voting, I’m another player who misses the random map choice—I used to lay in Viridian Bog (favorite map) and Mordor a lot more that way.
I actually haven’t been to either of those maps at all this month. Just Ruby Oasis, River City, and Grim over and over. It got old already to the point that I will probably “take the rest of the month off” until I want to play so bad I don’t care what map I get dropped in.

Others have said it & I agree with them: Polar is fine and helps with positioning practice. Plus, there’s plenty of cover on it.

Edited by Defender Rococo Rockfowl, 20 November 2017 - 12:59 AM.


#191 Anjian

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 01:05 AM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 19 November 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

Why not make multiple versions of the Polar map? This could be used for other maps too. A few maps already have such but most are like ancient battlefields instead of something that just happened a few days ago.

Have a warship survive reentry, break up and have crashed into Polar.

Have a Behemoth/Colossus/Mammoth/Overload dropships crash into Polar. One and two different dropships.


Sorry that idea is already taken.



#192 Vellron2005

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 02:03 AM

View PostAnjian, on 20 November 2017 - 01:05 AM, said:


Sorry that idea is already taken.




ooooh, that looks interesting!

Battle of Titans you say?

#193 Kroete

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 02:11 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 18 November 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

...Ad Hominem ..
Intermediate, not basic, nor expert.
...Ad Hominem...
...Ad Hominem...
...Ad Hominem.

Mimimi ...
Your "balancing" lrm thread showed clearly that you need to learn more about lrms if you want to balance them (Do you remember our discussion and that i mentioned that you need to play a little more with them because you dont know much about them?).
And intermediate is not enough for good lrm using, you know low skill bottom, but high skill ceiling, so you need to play lrms more to talk about them without looking like a new-player or crybaby.
That you are new is locked out because you braged about your mighty 5000 matches to validate your opinion.
... another 3 mimimis for you.

Its not the map, its you. Posted Image

Edited by Kroete, 20 November 2017 - 02:13 AM.


#194 Anjian

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 02:19 AM

View PostVellron2005, on 20 November 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:


ooooh, that looks interesting!

Battle of Titans you say?


Yup, but its a mobile game, going to debut on iOS first and hopefully next on Android.

#195 Vellron2005

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:18 AM

View PostAnjian, on 20 November 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:


Yup, but its a mobile game, going to debut on iOS first and hopefully next on Android.


Damn.. I don't play games on mobile anymore.. Need it to be on PC..

#196 The6thMessenger

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 06:09 AM

View PostVellron2005, on 20 November 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:


Damn.. I don't play games on mobile anymore.. Need it to be on PC..


Posted Image

View PostWolfways, on 19 November 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

If you put cover on one side of the map it becomes an "unfair map", but if it's in the center it turns into another nascar map.


Or we could have it scattered randomly, like they how could scatter Scout Intel locations.

#197 Anjian

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 06:24 AM

View PostVellron2005, on 20 November 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:


Damn.. I don't play games on mobile anymore.. Need it to be on PC..

View PostVellron2005, on 20 November 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:


Damn.. I don't play games on mobile anymore.. Need it to be on PC..


A late model iPad will do. PC port is part of their road map, but that's only if they are able to reach $30 million in capitalization.

#198 Anjian

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 07:54 AM

Here is a good example of a frozen map that has plenty of cover. One might ask, why does the frozen maps in MWO lacked any trees at all?

War Thunder: Frozen Pass


Edited by Anjian, 20 November 2017 - 07:55 AM.


#199 Brain Cancer

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 01:06 PM

It's almost like a law of nature.

If a map is even remotely good for LRMs, people will want it removed. I can remember people whining about Caustic. Because OMG, LURMS AND LONG RANGE WEAPONS.

If anything even remotely suggests LRMs should be as poorly statted as possible, it will hit 10 pages without trying.

This gets both, and we're pushing for 11.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 20 November 2017 - 01:07 PM.


#200 SeventhSL

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 01:59 PM

You can basically rate a maps popularity by the skill required to play it.

Hot maps require more heat management skill then cold.
Large maps require more patients and positioning skill then small.
Long range maps require more accuracy then short.
Sparsely covered maps require more pre planning and awarness then heavily covered ones.

You get a map like Polar that ticks most of the "requires more skill" checkboxes and people flip out. They are happy to bring an optimised brawl build, that will eat long range builds alive on most maps, but you dare not have a map where the shoe is on the other foot.

Haters are going to hate anything that doesn't suit them regardless of how much others like it.

Edited by SeventhSL, 20 November 2017 - 02:19 PM.






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