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How To "fix" Polar Highlands


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#41 SeventhSL

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 06:23 PM

To be honest, I don't care if your insulted over such trivial words. That is your choice. If you are as good as you say you are then take shelter in your own confidence.

Look to summarise I'll say this:

1. People who dislike Polar generally struggle on it because it doesn't have hard cover and they can't adapt well. Take that how you will. Remember the truth hurts. If it is not true, then don't be insulted. If it is true, then take it as a challenge to improve.

2. Maps should be diverse. Some with hard cover and some without.

3. Every other map has a decent supply of hard cover. Don't add more to Polar. We are already short of maps like that.



#42 The6thMessenger

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 06:53 PM

View PostSeventhSL, on 14 November 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

2. Maps should be diverse. Some with hard cover and some without.


But also something that's not totally infavor or against certain weapons and builds. Sure it should be so diverse, but not so much that map would be so much of a major factor that people might as well lose or win already in certain maps.

View PostSeventhSL, on 14 November 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

3. Every other map has a decent supply of hard cover. Don't add more to Polar. We are already short of maps like that.


So what if other maps have decent covers? That's like you wanting to have two candy bars from your mother just because another kid was having two candy bars bought by his own mother.

View PostSeventhSL, on 14 November 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

To be honest, I don't care if your insulted over such trivial words. That is your choice. If you are as good as you say you are then take shelter in your own confidence.

1. People who dislike Polar generally struggle on it because it doesn't have hard cover and they can't adapt well. Take that how you will. Remember the truth hurts. If it is not true, then don't be insulted. If it is true, then take it as a challenge to improve.


Really? When you insult people by calling them stupid despite not being stupid, they shouldn't be insulted because it's not true?

Truth hurts, but but insults are meant to hurt regardless of the truth.

It's pathetic how people resort to Ad Hominem just because they don't really have anything of substance, especially when one (me) is trying to be reasonable. It's insulting how you have this somewhat high-and-mighty or looking-down approach as if it's impossible for them to have an informed opinion.

"Take it as you will"

No I won't take that. Good day.

#43 Athom83

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:10 PM

As a dedicated brawler who actually can do well on PH (because I can use trenches and avoid incoming salvos after breaking lock, even in my Atlas), I do agree with the addition of the Radar Telescopes. Not for the reasons Messanger is wanting. I honestly couldn't care less about the LRMs (unless there is a narc/tag support light on the enemy team that knows how to play). Why I want those telescopes is the rule of cool. They look cool and would add some more ambiance to a barren wasteland of openness, and be a potentially semi-decent explanation for why a whole company of BattleMechs would mark there as a location of battle.

#44 Vellron2005

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 01:52 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 14 November 2017 - 05:40 AM, said:

I just had an idea, what if we made Polar Highlands an array of frozen radio telescopes? Just observatories scattered all over as LRM-adequate cover.

I mean look at the edges of the Polar Highlands, lots of satellite dishes everywhere.

Posted Image


Or.. how about..

NO?

This idea for Polar would be the same as saying "let's make HPG more LRM friendly by removing the central top dish and ceiling, and leaving only the columns".

Come on dude, let us LRM lovers have at least one map where LRMs are actually super-useful.. Posted Image

Also, why you crying about Lurmageddon? Don't you know LRMs are the worst weapon in the game which nobody should evah evah use anyway? Posted Image Posted Image

#45 The6thMessenger

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 02:31 AM

View PostVellron2005, on 15 November 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

Or.. how about..

NO?


Or. How about..

YES!!!

Posted Image

View PostVellron2005, on 15 November 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

This idea for Polar would be the same as saying "let's make HPG more LRM friendly by removing the central top dish and ceiling, and leaving only the columns".


Actually, i wouldn't mind extending the column on the HPG and have the satellite dish near inaccessible at all to get LRMs also working at HPG. And i'm not even sarcastic, i really wouldn't mind if that happens, in fact lets do it.

Posted Image

I don't mind if they raised the dish and replace the frames that originates from the wall.

You might say "hows about just 'fix' LRM instead?", well i tried that, but you rejected it so we're doing this now.

View PostVellron2005, on 15 November 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

Come on dude, let us LRM lovers have at least one map where LRMs are actually super-useful.. Posted Image


"Super" useful as in 100% useful?

Sorry, i could only do 85%.

Now if you don't really understand my position, let me clarify. It's not supposed to be at an extreme/absoulte either not-useful/super-useful binary, my approach is compromise. So in future interactions, stop with the seemingly assumed and implied "i just want to make LRMs useless" or something in such a line that it merits you being so touchy. Quit it, that's not what i want.

View PostVellron2005, on 15 November 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

Also, why you crying about Lurmageddon? Don't you know LRMs are the worst weapon in the game which nobody should evah evah use anyway? Posted Image Posted Image


Because I wasn't.

Also, non sequitur.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 15 November 2017 - 03:07 AM.


#46 Wolfways

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 03:22 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 15 November 2017 - 02:31 AM, said:

You might say "hows about just 'fix' LRM instead?", well i tried that, but you rejected it so we're doing this now.

But the biggest problem with LRM's is the maps. They are small arenas with way too much hard cover.

Edited by Wolfways, 15 November 2017 - 03:22 AM.


#47 The6thMessenger

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 03:36 AM

View PostWolfways, on 15 November 2017 - 03:22 AM, said:

But the biggest problem with LRM's is the maps. They are small arenas with way too much hard cover.


Pretty sure that the problem itself is LRM's implementation -- that it's too reliant on maps. Give a man an AC5, it will work pretty much on most maps. LRMs on the other hand, we might as well summon a demon.

If they just made indirect-fire some cheeky but less-effective option, and have it balanced around direct-fire like every other weapons in game, that it's not that reliant on maps, then we wouldn't see people hating on LRMs so much when in PH.

What happened is we get an overspecialized weapon that have it excel on one very specific stuff that happens only mostly on PH, have so much skill with use with equal effectiveness of other direct fire weapons attained with less skill, that it's usually a liability, have it suck at many other stuff. It's essentially blade for hands or arm-cannon, it sounds awesome on paper but how do you wipe your butt?

I get that weapons supposed to have roles, but it's not like we can't have it implemented in a way that it still does it's job, but doesn't suck on other areas that people just consider it bad.

But since you people are too embossed on LRMs that changes to the weapon causes outrage, we got this instead.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 15 November 2017 - 04:18 AM.


#48 John McHobo

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 04:15 AM

Everytime PH comes up in a discussion as unbalanced or biased I hear the same counterarguments:
"You just have to use the trenches"
"There is plenty of cover"
"Don´t expose yourself"
"The enemy needs to spot you"
...
Here is a little video of a well known streamer, a very skilled and experienced player.
Take your time and watch especially for his facial expression. That immense resignation. How he knows full well that he is caught and can do nothing to stop it. Nothing at all. Because unless you are willing to stalk around the fringes of the map, this is the only "gameplay" one can expect.



#49 The6thMessenger

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 04:22 AM

View PostJohn McHobo, on 15 November 2017 - 04:15 AM, said:

Everytime PH comes up in a discussion as unbalanced or biased I hear the same counterarguments:
"You just have to use the trenches"
"There is plenty of cover"
"Don´t expose yourself"
"The enemy needs to spot you"
...
Here is a little video of a well known streamer, a very skilled and experienced player.
Take your time and watch especially for his facial expression. That immense resignation. How he knows full well that he is caught and can do nothing to stop it. Nothing at all. Because unless you are willing to stalk around the fringes of the map, this is the only "gameplay" one can expect.




To be fair, those counterarguments are true. However it's also true that PH just isn't that good. It's workable, and people can just do that, but that does not say that it's not biased for LRMs or Snipers.

I guess people are just saying that you CAN work against the bias when they say those counter arguments, but then how hard you have to work to over come those biases, that's the point of contention. Is it reasonable or unreasonable.

#50 Kuaron

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 04:30 AM

View PostFelbombling, on 14 November 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

Polar Highlands is a necessary evil for the game. I love that map, even though I have been blown to bits by LRM spam on in a couple of times. You get Narc'd on that map, it is pure evil. A flanker can also spell your doom with good spotting.

Personally, I'd love PGI to make a grasslands version of it. I believe it has a hand in diversifying builds somewhat.


You forgot to explain the “necessary” part.

#51 Vellron2005

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 04:50 AM

@TheSixthMessanger

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were the OP.

If I had, I would have just skipped this topic all together.

Not worth my time explaining why most of your ideas are simply not good.

Note that I'm not biased or touchy, or anything, you and I simply seem to have different views, and I find it it's not worth arguing over this again.

#52 Paigan

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:03 AM

View PostJohn McHobo, on 15 November 2017 - 04:15 AM, said:

Everytime PH comes up in a discussion as unbalanced or biased I hear the same counterarguments:
"You just have to use the trenches"
"There is plenty of cover"
"Don´t expose yourself"
"The enemy needs to spot you"
...
Here is a little video of a well known streamer, a very skilled and experienced player.
Take your time and watch especially for his facial expression. That immense resignation. How he knows full well that he is caught and can do nothing to stop it. Nothing at all. Because unless you are willing to stalk around the fringes of the map, this is the only "gameplay" one can expect.



Sorry, but this is exactely an example of how NOT to do it.
No matter how often you write "very skilled and experienced player", all they do is running into the coverless lurmlands of death and then stand there and die.
The basic principle of a tactical game is to play TACTICAL. Not just run straight forward until one is in the range one desires (brawling range for most ... well ... simple people) and if that doesn't work blame it on some biased map selection or so.
That is just noobish, nothing else.

He might be a skilled aimer and flanker and what not. I believe that. But thoughtlessly running into the arms of the enemy cannot qualify as "even an experienced player can't do nothing to stop it."


THIS:

View PostJohn McHobo, on 15 November 2017 - 04:15 AM, said:

[...] Because unless you are willing to stalk around the fringes of the map, this is the only "gameplay" one can expect.

THIS is the basic first lesson one has to learn when playing ANYTHING tactical: You can't just do "what you want". You have to do what WORKS.
If you refuse to use the terrain AND you refuse to outrange your enemy AND you refuse to use existing countermeasures, then you are (tactical-wise) a newbie, no matter how high other skills like aiming etc. might be.

#53 JadePanther

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:13 AM

View PostRoadbuster, on 14 November 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

Or...











wait for it....







People could stop cowering behind a hill, until one enemy gets to the flank, has LoS and Lurmageddon starts.
Posted Image


Thats right you yourself can go straight over that hill as fast as you can and get into LOS and start lurmageddon raining down on your head first.. Then its a matter of clicking exit match and going thru the dumb@$$ crap you have to to get into another match..

polar higlands problem is solved.. better yet just remove MM penalties for DC and let us just exit before the drop ship does its thing.. saves a little bit of time there...

#54 Vonbach

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:27 AM

You can definitely tell who the LRM boat players are on this thread.
Polar Highlands is an abomination. Its way too big with almost no cover
its just plain boring to play. There's no fixing the map just remove it from the game.

#55 Siegegun

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 06:58 AM

Your dislike of LRMs is showing again OP. There is nothing wrong with Polar Highlands. It does not need to be "fixed".

#56 Appogee

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:01 AM

I think we need to follow the example of the Viet Cong and create tunnels beneath the tundra, so that we brawlers can pop up behind the LRMers and put them out of our misery ;)

Edited by Appogee, 15 November 2017 - 07:02 AM.


#57 Wolfways

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:24 AM

View PostJohn McHobo, on 15 November 2017 - 04:15 AM, said:

Everytime PH comes up in a discussion as unbalanced or biased I hear the same counterarguments:
"You just have to use the trenches"
"There is plenty of cover"
"Don´t expose yourself"
"The enemy needs to spot you"
...
Here is a little video of a well known streamer, a very skilled and experienced player.
Take your time and watch especially for his facial expression. That immense resignation. How he knows full well that he is caught and can do nothing to stop it. Nothing at all. Because unless you are willing to stalk around the fringes of the map, this is the only "gameplay" one can expect.



Here's the thing though.

1) He's TheBeef. If anyone see's him he becomes priority target #1 (not in a nasty way though, he's not hated)
2) It was totally his fault that he died there. He was looking at an ECM mech on his team when the missiles started flying, and then he ran away from it instead of towards it.
We all make mistakes sometimes.

#58 Khobai

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:25 AM

Quote

How To "fix" Polar Highlands


it doesnt need to be fixed. polar highlands is fine.

whats not fine is the voting system that allows idiots to vote for polar highlands constantly.

get rid of voting and give us random maps instead. polar highlands wouldnt be an issue if we didnt have to play it every third match.

#59 Wolfways

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:32 AM

View PostVonbach, on 15 November 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

You can definitely tell who the LRM boat players are on this thread.
Polar Highlands is an abomination. Its way too big with almost no cover
its just plain boring to play. There's no fixing the map just remove it from the game.

You can definitely tell who the noobs that get killed by LRM's a lot are in this thread.
Polar Highlands is a great map. It's nice and big with tons of cover.
Unfortunately MWO's game modes are boring to play. There's nothing to fix on this map, one of the best in the game.

Funny how that works out eh? Posted Image

View PostKhobai, on 15 November 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:


it doesnt need to be fixed. polar highlands is fine.

whats not fine is the voting system that allows idiots to vote for polar highlands constantly.

get rid of voting and give us random maps instead. polar highlands wouldnt be an issue if we didnt have to play it every third match.

But if we remove voting I wouldn't be forced to play HPG Manifold or Grim Plexus every other match!

/sarcasm

#60 The Real Don

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:51 AM

I think the real problem here is that mechs capable of truly boating ams are few and far between. Notably we have 2 triple ams mechs in the game at the moment; kit fox and the nova. Several with 2 slots and the catch with that is people need to sacrifice weapon space or components like HS.

With a few of these added it could help add some more cover for a lance that does get spotted in one of the many shallower trenches. Also asking a whole pug lance to stay near a group while using ams as cover for tier team is harder to accomplish, even more so at lower tiers where lrms on the map are a guarantee as those players haven't ventured out into more of the skill based weapons that use aim and leading to actually hit targets.

As long as they aren't an entire field to hide under but more of spaced out objects those dishes could actually give many more players built for medium and short range a chance.

But really what is needed is more ams mechs including multi ams platforms and ecm mechs to stay closer to the main force.

I'm in favor but also support using mechanics we already have with slight adjustment.

Edited by TheOnlyRealDon, 15 November 2017 - 08:52 AM.






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