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#1 Koniving

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 09:44 AM

Once upon a time, MWO redesigned how many of the old mechs looked and gave them a new look that generally looks really cool under a singular, united aesthetic. Maybe two aesthetics.

However, watching the various updates about Star Citizen's ships and hearing how the in-universe corporations have core aesthetics, design beliefs, "signature" traits, etc... such as Origin being all about high end luxury (even if the ships handle like trash haulers), Anvil Aerospace loves to incorporate their logo design somehow into the shape of every single ship they produce, RSI is about aged industrial ruggedness, dependability and affordability, so on and so forth.

So it had me wondering... with over 66 unique (as in completely unique per second stats while still fitting into the loose damage/heat/range category of) medium lasers produced by almost half as many unique companies... so many different companies producing mechs, weapons, etc... and even Mech variants having written unique aesthetics about them created not just by their manufacturing corporations but by the consumers using those products.... what do we actually know about the design philosophies of these companies in the Battletech universe?

I mean we know small things. For example Donal PPCs are distinct for their longer-than-average barrels and blocky power chambers, creating a cylinder-into-rectangular-prism visual aesthetic. The only other things we know for sure is that they are used on many Warhammers, a Cicada variant, one or more THUG" variants, and the last thing we know is that Donal PPCs tend to pack slightly more wallop per shot than PPCs are generally rated for (reflected in Harebrained Scheme's Battletech which does higher damage at the cost of less accuracy--which is questionable considering they tend to have longer than average barrels).

But actually who makes Donal PPCs? Was there an original company for them or is it some kind of weird mutt?

We know that Imperator makes ballistic infantry and autocannons for vehicles and mechs. We know that their AC range, regardless of class, is ONLY manufactured in 80mm for standard and 100mm for "Code Red" variants, and that the letter designation after the name does not imply the Class of Autocannon or caliber, but instead how the Autocannon is reloaded. D stands for belt-fed, A stands for Cassette-ejection (the magazine holding a number of shells is ejected along with the shells when it goes to reload, B stands for Cassette-Swap (the cassette is not ejected and is instead saved to reduce on rearm costs, this comes at the cost of a longer reload down time). And we do not know what an Imperator-C autocannon stands for. But for that matter, Imperator the company doesn't even have a stub on Sarna.net.

There's a lot we do know if we really hunt for it... and then there's stuff that we don't know jack about.

For example, we know that Pontiac specializes in extremely rapid fire, very low caliber autocannons that still manage to be in the 10 and 20 damage classes, and that Pontiacs are actually IFV-grade AA-style Gatling Guns fitted inside a protective armored barrel...and yet still are cassette-fed to minimize jamming risks that come with the vibrations in a belt-fed system within a moving machine when under fire.

We know that the Rassal Blu Beam is the most powerful non-Bombast laser in terms of a single shot delivered in less than a second, as the only medium laser to achieve 5 damage in a single 0.1 damage beam... only to overheat, gradually melt its already poor cooling jacket, scramble your own sensors up for several seconds, and be inaccurate to boot.

We know that the Panther has the smallest standard PPC to exist in the Battletech universe with no sacrifice in firepower at the cost of a 2 second firing delay (which raises to 3 if the weapon itself is running hot from multiple shots before the weapon refuses to even try to fire until it cools), versus the average 1 second or less for most standard PPCs, and that a PPC would basically be the size of the average light mech's full arm or close to it if not for the modifications to the Lord's Light PPC.

What we don't know are things like Do Diverse Optics lasers look different than Magna? Does a Defiance Industries autocannon look different than a Kali-Yama Weapons Industries Big Bore? Do Rand PPCs always come on their own turrets? Are all Ramsey machine guns incredibly accurate, flexible, and yet prone to both overheating and jamming or is it just the Ramsey 65s?

The list goes on and on.

So. What do you guys know, think, or have found? Please share.

Not limited to weapons. I want to know about engine manufacturers, equipment manufacturers, etc., what things look like, how they perform, issues and merits of them... anything, everything.

#2 Conn Man

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:03 AM

In Battletech Tactics (remember that? hahaha) some 'mechs had bonuses if you had a full set of matching weapons from a single manufacturer. Would love to see something like that.

#3 Koniving

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 09:53 PM

You mean Mechwarrior Tactics?

Could be interesting. Bit difficult though since many laser manufacturers don't produce autocannons, etc.

#4 ocular tb

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 02:49 AM

When it comes to this stuff I'm very, very, ignorant so I don't have anything to add. But I do find it interesting just how much there is to learn. It's too bad more of this kind of stuff doesn't get added in the game.

#5 Conn Man

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 12:57 PM

View PostKoniving, on 01 December 2017 - 09:53 PM, said:

You mean Mechwarrior Tactics?

Could be interesting. Bit difficult though since many laser manufacturers don't produce autocannons, etc.


That is exactly what I meant! :)
Like I said...something like that. More depth would be great.

#6 Karl Streiger

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 01:04 AM

Uhm the Pontiac is very interesting - while the caliber was mentioned in "Heir of the Dragon" with 100mm but in "Sword and Dagger" with 100rounds per shot.
I would also go the "route" of the smaller caliber rotating barrel type.
I'm not 100% sure but I bet that there might be a maximum what is possible - the inertia force of a rotating big caliber gun might be to much stress.
For the Pontiac - i found a 7 barrel gun with 43mm caseless should be able to fire 100 rounds in ~2-3 seconds (Sword and Dagger mentioned 6) -muzzle velocity might be in the 1400m/s range.
Bigger caliber = either less velocity = less penetration or less ammunition per shot.

Some older TROs also mention some additional informations.
For example the Hellstar PPCs of the Shreck are mentioned to use a longer accelerator and there for need less particles (mass)

The ChemSet 185 is a uses a liquid binary proppelant system (those round turret sides are tanks) this also make sense because without ejecting metal cartridge (a heatsink) you need active cooling for this gun. Not to mention the higher stress and failure rate for delicate system as the LPB system. However it implies also that the crew can "dial the pain" much faster as compared to a "propellant bag" system they can choose the muzzle energy - so the speed and so the ballistic curve. (target goes prone behind a ridge - and the Demolisher can still lob the grenade - where others shoot strait.

A good idea is to look for the designs that use a specific weapon.
(Because I'm working on it.... the Imperator Zeta AC 20. Mounted in an UrbanMech, the Hammerhead aerospace fighter and a Banshee.... With the Aerospace fighter you might need a profile (high velocity multiple rounds fast reloads)
the mount on UrbanMech (technical a arm - but the UrbanMech doesn't have arms correct?) and Banshee (at the hip) also might imply some bulk. (longer barrel(s)) - ammunition - lots of spare ammo for Banshee and not so much for Hammerhead and UrbanMech.... so maybe not a clip shot basis but a feed system.

I think there was another design with the Zeta but I did not found it, yet. (Mackie)

tldr;
to compare the "artwork" on all vehicles a specific weapon is mounted might help to "design" a gun.
(Pontiac 100 - arm mount on Victor and YLW) - Zeta on "hip" for Banshee, Mackie and UrbanMEch)

some times its possible to reverse "calculate" the characteristics of a gun. For example the Armstrong of the Shadow Hawk - somewhere I think to have read its 90mm.... So with 90mm and a casing you end with 3 rounds per shot.
The Whirlwind A of the MAD is mentioned somewhere as 120mm - and you can have 3 rounds either - simple use sub caliber shells with a sabot. So the "bullet" might have a smaller caliber as the 90mm of the Armstrong but with the pressure for a 120mm round those will travel much faster.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 04 December 2017 - 06:31 AM.


#7 Koniving

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 08:10 AM

Yeah with the Pontiac 100 I pretty much surmise that the actual weapon is a Gatling Gun sheathed in an armor casing (based on math breakdowns of other weapons of identical damage per shot such as 10 shots from the Blackjack per cassette/reload to get 2 damage and 100 shots to get 20 damage) that the Pontiac 100 must/should be 30mm, and likely share ammo-types. However the shot count for a Pontiac 100 comes out to 150 more than the Whirlwind/L would get per ton of ammo. (While I deduced 30mm, it does in fact come up again as 40mm mounted on the Yen Lo Wang according to somebody, with some 1000 something shells in 3 tons of ammo... Does the Yen Lo Wang even carry that much ammo?)

More or less I've long since decided it to be a 30mm multiple rotating barrel arrangement sheathed in a protective armored cooling jacket in the form of a "bigger barrel."
Posted Image
As such, that protects the otherwise fragile setup. You also have the sometimes prone to jamming tidbit and a secondary feed, as well as port-like marks in the right torso's front armor suggesting a door, and there's your secondary feed (extrude ammo cassette, grab with left hand, insert into gun).

There's a Pontiac Light in Illusions of Victory at 40mm. Important to note that this Pontiac is an AC/5.

---

I recently started to read about a liquid propellant. No that's right Lindybiege was talking about the concept for "Future tanks."

Link here.

And as for the Armstrong..
Armstrong J11 = 80mm or 90mm (Thunder ridge) -Shadow Hawk, suspect a typo. Sarna says 80mm.

Sarna says 80mm, Thunder Ridge described it as both 80mm and 90mm depending on which page you look at.

To counter the 90mm 3 round burst, however, the highest caliber of AC/2 is 90mm according to Sarna (and 80mm according to BattleTechnology). Even then as their primary function is anti-infantry, anti-air and anti-light vehicle, being a single shot projectile to get 2 damage is unlikely.

There are comparable 90mm weapons, such as Wolves on the Border with the "Whirlwind" (They have far too many guns by this cheesy name). Thunder Ridge has the Armstrong J11 so there's a possible reading point. But as so many AC/5s and AC/10s cap out at and AC/20 includes many 120mm variants which generally lend themselves to the 3 shot 5 damage, 6 shot 10 and 12 shot 20 damage credence I've come to accept that 120mm lends itself to 1.67 damage per shell. Which helps as Heir to the Dragon has the Atlas Deahtgiver at 100mm which if I'm not mistaken churns out quite a few bullets. Certainly more than 12.per reload...

Did it reload? Been a while.
There's also this:
Posted Image
Keep in mind this doesn't expressly state that the damage is 5 or 10 for the bullets stated, just that these are the firing rates. Which includes that 120mm at 3-4 shells per second is "Painfully slow" for an autocannon.

A WEIRD thing to note, is this mentions the Luxor-D which is an LBX which fires "70mm shells at 10 rounds per second."
Think about that for a minute. LBX-10... firing 10 shots per second.

The shotgun... firing 10 shells... per second...
Huh. Side note it is important to note that the initial descriptions describe a Flak-like shell that fragments after firing. Though other things that say it fragments when firing... but then the spread and other issues wouldn't work with tabletop's rules, yet the flak design would. Custom rules are made to have the shotty effect though, as I've been told.

My current breakdown model of damage is as follows.
30mm 0.2 damage/shell.
40mm 0.25 damage/shell
50mm 0.33 damage/shell
60mm 0.4167 damage/shell. (this nets 5 damage in 12 shots. At 8-10 per second it'd take just over a second to achieve 5 damage.)
70mm at 0.5 damage/shell (so if the Luxor D's firing rate was an AC/10 instead of an LBX, or if that's the firing rate of the "slugs", then we'd achieve 10 damage in 2 seconds).
80mm at 0.625 damage/shell (in some cases 0.833 damage/shell here, and so on as you go up)
90mm 0.833 damage/shell (in some cases 1.11 damage/shell here)
100mm 1.11 damage/shell (in some cases I had 1.25 damage/shell here)
110mm at 1.25 damage/shell
120mm at 1.67 damage/shell (so many examples; this means the Marauder's GM Whirlwind/5 would achieve 5 damage in 1 second or less, If fired at the same rate the King Crab Deathgiver in 4 seconds, however, AC/20s are stated to fire 4x faster than AC/5s in general, so this could and I presume it is still done in at most 2 seconds or less.)
?
?
150mm is expressly 10 shots for 2 damage each to get 20 damage. Crusher Super Heavy.
?
?
180mm (5 shots according to MechCommander, though many lore versions have it as either firing several shots in succession or firing a single shot to double shots, which is where I think Sarna.net gets its "can fire singly or in bursts." Era Report 3052 has single and multi shot use of the weapon in its short story.
185mm Chemjet Gun. (See above and below as to why I assigned 5 damage here.)
190mm Heavy Rifle, Arbiter (6 damage for a single shell, 9 damage against weaker Barrier Armor Ratings of 7 or less; mechs and most combat tanks have a BAR of 10.)
?
203mm (Only example: Cauldron Born. Twin barrels. Given the above it is HIGHLY unlikely that a single shot delivers 20 damage, especially since the UAC/20 supposedly spins which would be completely unnecessary as you'd just have two barrels with two chambers like a double barrel shotgun rigged to fire elephant shot.
Posted Image
(Image used to give an idea of what you'd be cramming into said double barrel shotgun, and as a metaphor to what they'd shove into a "double barrel autocannon" if the autocannon were shotgun sized.. and then it spins to reload and fire quicker??? Completely unnecessary!!)
So yeah... no idea why the barrels would need to spin if it simply does 20 damage in a single shell. Therefore I've concluded that given the barrels and the autocannon description that the minimum shot count is 4 (and just implying 4 shots on an Ultra of the highest possible caliber)... that it does an impressive 10 damage. (The Rifle also helped me to this conclusion as 190mm produces up to 9 damage, so a specially modified 203mm shell [so as to not lose penetration] with an explosive component [they are described as HEAP rounds] as opposed to the Rifles sabot-like description with no explosive component, should then be able to net the full 10 damage per shell).

So that's roughly my damage breakdown that I work with. Applying something similar to lasers also makes the energy consumption described in BattleTechnology work if you consider it to be the energy consumed per shot, with multiple shots to achieve the result when you plug it into the laser drill calculator you gave me a while ago.

(Also if it didn't take multiple shots to get the rated results from lasers, why the **** would anyone ever use autocannons in the BT universe? It makes no sense. And again when you consider weight, heat, and damage ratios in PPCs, the range isn't worth the heat if you can achieve 5 damage with a single shot from a 1 ton weapon versus 5 damage with a shot from a 3 ton weapon at twice the range.. Doesn't make any sense. But if PPCs aka Siege Cannons deliver it all at once and lasers even with the stated 0.1 to 0.2 second beam times take several shots... then PPCs make sense in the universe... and Gauss Rifles are the incredibly powerful things they are described to be).

Edited by Koniving, 04 January 2018 - 06:22 AM.


#8 Koniving

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 09:35 AM

I admit my damage calculation doesn't take different types of bullets into account or that bullets may be of different lengths. But in working out weapon modifications to create different variants, i.e. extended barrel, short barrel, etc., I have come up with variations in the damage model to make things more or less work. Another thing I've done is weight distribution to parts of the weapon system.

A description that PPCs often have 3 to 4 heatsinks built into the weapon and that the actual weapon itself isn't really 7 tons but that's what it comes out to when all is said and done(Battletechnology; first BT novelist William Keith Jr) inspired me on this front. After all, Donal PPCs have longer barrels. Okay we funnel more weight into the barrel and less weight elsewhere. Hellstar has a longer accelerator, I would kind of assume that would mean more damage but the less mass aspect suggests a shorter time from preparation to delivery of the report (firing). So then I would figure out if we put more of the weapon's weight into the firing mechanism to get a faster firing rate or a shorter charge time, where does the weight come from?

Sort of an early Star Citizen approach when they showed the pentagon of missile ratios where there's explosive power, tracking ability, fuel, etc., etc and any pull in one direction takes it from something else so that the metric is never imbalanced with a missile being blatantly superior for its class. I try that approach with my weapon designs.

Really kinda irked that I can't find the docs with the mods so I think that's on a separate drive that I'll dig for tomorrow.

This said, I have come to the conclusion, with balancing scenarios and factoring in glancing/direct blows... that my breakdown should remember that damage categories are loose, and that more shots should accumulate to higher than normal damage and fewer shots should probably short-change the total damage. For example a 2 shot for 20 damage 203mm UAC probably should actually net 16 to 18 damage, while a Pontiac 100 with its 100 shots... should earn you considerably more than 20 damage for focusing on all that fire. But within reason. As such I kinda set 120mm as my baseline. Same with medium lasers, both at 1.67 damage per shot as a way of nding out how much I can swing up and down from the Jedi Curve of firepower in to damage out.

#9 Karl Streiger

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 11:59 PM

With lately inventions and material science the magical BT armor becomes less "magical".... its still very light but metal foam behind a boron nitride plate weights also only 75% of RHA and is much more effective.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

link for the study

You see armor is virtually destroyed but can stop the bullet.
When you take this into account a point of damage is not a linear calculation for energy or impulse but the abstract value how effective the armor protects after a hit.
This is backed by your finding with the Sabot Rifle ammunition. (still don't understand why its so heavy (maybe they use WW1 proppelant)) - a sabot is great in penetration and it might overwhelm the armor of a Mech in most cases... but in the end you only have a small hole and no fragmentation.... and the "muscles" and bones as well as the internal organs of a Mech might have no problem with a "hole" - same for the fusion engine - the smallest part would be the core with the fusion, the bigger parts are for generation of energy and cooling... the sabot need to hit death center with enough force to break through - and we have "floating criticals that simulate this"

some simple picture for 3 ACs. (very simple java aplet (draw random circles for a shot grouping at 100m) (1cm = 1 pixel) - total black is 500mm RHA
Posted Image Zeta 75 - 4 x 75 HV Bullets - MechKiller Fighter (HV - mater behave like liquide so the crater has the form of a bell
Posted ImageChemSet 185 firing 105mm Saboted API bullets
Posted Image185mm armor piercing explosive shells (SAPHEI (typical warship and tank ammunition during WW2)) - the guys at Defiance might call theirs Panzersprenggranate Posted Image

Posted Imageover simpled 45mm Pontiac 100 - you can say for sure that the whiter materials in the center of the shot grouping would be obliterated as well.


A PPC might behave like the 75 HV.... only with a different aspect ratio -



As a guide line you need to consider that a humanoid mech usually would need a smaller caliber autocannon with a higher RoF.
Posted Image
To show it: a Pontiac 100 as a 6 barreled gattling with a 57mm CaseLess - next to the huge 185mm ChemSet of a Demolisher.
The Victor is scaled down to 14m (lore and make sense with the size of the "cockpit"
the Pontiac can operate well with a barrel length of 300cm. but this would be much to short for the 185mm caliber.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 05 December 2017 - 06:25 AM.


#10 Koniving

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Posted 01 January 2018 - 09:35 AM

For some reason, somebody decided to provide all their help in an instant message rather than directly putting it here. The person is welcome to take credit for their work.

Sharing information in here helps motivate the discussion, the search, and so on. Yes private messages can send me info and help me, but that doesn't necessarily help everyone else.

"Reading the Gray Death trilogy a few weeks ago, and one thing that stood out, was that they kept referring to how fast Grayson Carlyle was firing the Shadowhawk's laser." "There are a lot of holes in the books writing (A LOT of holes) but he was definitely firing it more than the people he fought were firing theirs (And yet his ML was frequently treated as being a big threat to Marauders and Crusaders)"
"His shadowhawk is implied to be a stock-generic Shadowhawk of the period (which would be the 2H)"
"Sarna says the Shadowhawk carries Martel mediums, but so does the Locust, and it's laser was described very differently from the SHD's"
(Note: The Locust is frequently mentioned in the same trilogy and the Locust's laser is described very differently. Its almost impossible to believe they are supposed to be the same weapon.)

Found additional proof that the LB-10X was not originally a shotgun, but a flak cannon before the novel's shotgun analogy ran rampant with new novelists.
Posted Image
If not for the difficulty in acquiring LB-X weaponry, its very possible Riflemen and Jagermechs would be equipped with them instead of autocannons on applicable variants.
More help from the person:


CHAMELEON
Mentioned in TRO3025 under the Stinger
Model number TRC-4B (not CHA or the like?)
is actually listed in one of the latter TROs

COMMANDO
Prototype carried a Large Laser in the arm, which was prone to breaking the lubricants in that arm (Swapped for Missiles)
Two DIFFERENT missile systems need two ammo bins, with separate ammo feeds (-2D)
Requires a bigger and heavier command systems for the 3 different weapons (-2D) bringing the weight up to 25 tons (from 20 ton prototype model).

JENNER
Original mounted 2 Med Lasers (LA RA) and 1 Large (CT)
Argra 27C (prototype) lasers have less spectral purity and less rugged focal system than the Argra 3L (JR7-D) medium lasers (TRO3025)

LOCUST
Some Locusts have been modified with JJ (TRO3025 found under Spider)
Couldn't find any variants that are, Sarna didn't list any when I checked.

OSTSCOUT
Can track and record environmental, hydological, and geological information as it scouts
Sensor arrays are mounted outside the main chassis
Uses it's actuator systems to aim it's sensor arrays
Waves the arrays in seemingly random patters
Can accumulate data faster than it can process it, making it vulnerable to attack
Tends to stay out of battle, due to low armor and weaponry, and it's invaluable sensors
I keep thinking of one running around looking like it is panicking.

PANTHER
Originally carried a Large Laser
9R is less sophisticated than the 6R, but easier to produce with the same equipment (3025)
6R has a bulkier fire-control computer and weaker communications system
Lord's Light PPC hits harder than it's weight, but has less coolant tubes, 3 Heatsinks are mounted on the PPC to help counter this
Telos missiles are reliable
You knew most of this already, but the bit about the Telos missiles stood out to me.

(Its true I didn't know about its missile system.)

SCORPION (The Quad Mech)
Known as a scout-hunter (TRO3025 under Valkyrie)

SPIDER
Name comes from the pattern of the frontal armor alignment
Lasers on the -5V are more expensive than Martell Mediums, but considered the top quality available
Pivoting the JJ in flight can cause havoc with even the most sophisticated targeting systems (it's own or the other guys?)
No Ejection system, due to lack of room, pilot must climb out manually through lower hatch
-5D Variant must have 1/4 weight flamers, as it drops 1 Med Laser and adds 4 Flamers (2 each arm) (TRO3025)
Similar for the -5K MGs (TRO3025)

(Something tells me the flamer thing is a typo since it has only a single flamer. Or perhaps that single flamer is made out of 4 uh... spewing mechanisms?)

STINGER
Jump Jets are "Powerful"
Machine gun coolant jackets effectively block all heat emissions from interferring with mech operation.
Cramped cockpit, pilot needs help getting out (though not in)

VALKYRIE
All were in the hands of Davion at the start of the Succession Wars
130 produced a year (TRO3025)
Production tech no longer understood (TRO3025)
Replaces Wasp and Stinger in crack combat regiments

WASP
Leg Assemblies rip away from the body when used in a Jump Kick more than once
(Fixed 2610)
Jump Jets are "Sophisticated"
THE most common mech (TRO3025)

(Continued help from the person.)
"Took some notes while reading Wolves on the Border (on my Kindle, so 'locations' rather than pages)"
"They mention the Cassettes for the Enforcer (location 507)"
(Note: Cassettes are what they call "Magazines" for the autocannons.)

One of the Dragoons (not Dragons) has a shoulder piece that lets him access his Cyclop's communications net (location 825)
Data relayed from the field and the main battle computer through the Tacticon B-2000 system aboard the captain's CP10-Z Cyclops battlemech were fed to the unit he carried on his shoulder

Vindicator PPC vs the Panther (location 906)
The weapon's sophisticated cooling jacket made it a less compact system than the Lord's Light PPC of the Panther


About a customized Dragoon Vindicator (location 908)
The computer readout showed one non-standard system- a Holly launcher rpelacing the Capellan-built SianI Ceres Jaguar missile system. The Holly's discharge rate was slightly inferior to that listed for a factory-fresh Jaguar launcher, but it's reputation was far superior

Vindicator LRMs (location 986)
It carried one hundred-twenty 87mm free flight rockets
(Rockets. Not missiles...Huh.)

Weapon strength notes (thought the Javelin was said to have potent firepower?) (location 1082)
Minobu counted four, a Locust, a Stinger, a Javelin, and a Valkyrie - all light mechs with low-power weapons

Locust laser notes (1107)
The Vindicator was caught in the red glare of its laser. The pulses deeply scarred the mech's rear armor.

Vindicator Laser (1140)
Ruby light lanced out from the 5cm Ceres Arms laser...

Mech coolant details (heatsinks?) (1209)
Coolant trucks and ammunition lighters attended each in turn. The former tended a machine's heat exchanger system, flushing warmed coolant out and replacing it with a fresh, cold supply

More support for (Panther at least) PPC accuracy issues vs MWO's hard minimum range (1216)
A second one loosed a PPC blast pointblank into the Commando's cockpit

Phoenix Hawk laser (1412)
The blast from his 8cm laser...

Potential engine explosion? (1422)
He got his mech's one good arm around the enemy, hauling the machines into close contact....
....Then Jenkins shut down his heat exchangers, letting the heat destroy the magnetic containment of the Phoenix Hawk's fusion reactor.
(with later notes about how he died there)

Notes about how the corporations that built stuff made it easier to lose the data (1450)

Catapult LRM size (2395)
75mm rockets from the paired launchers...

Multiple PPC shots to do 10 damage? Not likely, but this was a short encounter (2398)
Frost moved his Panther up on Armstrong's left, loosing particle beams into the milling battlemechs...

Ostsol laser size (2450)
8cm lasers

JJ speeds (as opposed to distance?) (2780)
Dechan triggered a burst from his Hawk's jets...
Johansson's Javelin rocketed past him, the lighter mech almost twice as fast in the air...

Beam durations? (2869)
His Shadow Hawk's Martell laser grazed the Eridani mech...

Wolverine autocannon (2871) - they didn't specify which mech this guy drove until almost the end!
Dominguez pounded 90mm shells and laser fire into a pair of hostile mechs...

Subcontracting mercs? Sounds like mech4merhcs (3250)
They also offered a slot in Carter's Chevaliers, a subcontracting mercenary unit

Dragon LRM launcher causes the gut? (3947)
The enlongated configuration of its main armament, a Telos DecaCluster missile launcher dominated the central torso

Low speeds needed on pavement (4847)
He brought up the Dragon's speed, heedless of the low traction on the paved city streets

Potential elementals in the Dragoons? (they mention a few of them being 'massive' and 'bear-like" (4924)
Malking infantry! In Akuma's day as a mechwarrior, no Kurita soldier would have feared infantry!

Dragon also uses cassettes (5664)
Minobu's last shell cassette emptied into the unfamiliar machine.

Dragon laser size (5668)
With only one 5cm laser left in its offensive armament....

#11 Koniving

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Posted 01 January 2018 - 09:46 AM

Ever wondered why there's "laser bullets" in addition to lasers in MW4's trailer?

Posted Image

This is also why Lasers have increased to hit chances (instead of firing once to a couple of well spaced times over 10 seconds, they fire like machine guns).
This is why MW3's pulse lasers fired by holding the button and had a sustained firing time.

Each individual pulse is significantly weaker, but the buildup overtime achieves superior damage and eventually, higher heat.

MWO's problems with pulse lasers is having them have a significantly shorter beam time, faster firing rate, and higher heat made them almost unusable. Basically MWO's pulse lasers were the polar opposite of how pulse lasers were meant to function...

Fun thought, huh?
Also fun: Watch a pulse laser being fired in MW3 from the side. There's little laser bullets in it. But standard lasers do not do this.

Edited by Koniving, 01 January 2018 - 09:46 AM.


#12 Karl Streiger

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 05:13 AM

Well some novel ideas have merrit, others are there because rule of cool.
About the interchange ability of LRMs there are also some notes about it in the TRO3039 and the LRM/SRM Carrier.
Its the same story as with AC ammunition. But as most we should keep in mind that BattleTech was designed in a post apocalyptic setting with a homage to japanese mecha before everything went full circus with Stackpoles novels. (logical caveat: IS ranges are short because of bad things did happen - Clans haven't had bad things but hat the same crappy ranges - thank Catalyst that they moved mountains in their attempt to to extinguish this idiocy

However the idea that lighter mechs have lighter weapons make sense. Its a little bit inconsequential from the "construction rules" that lighter mechs mount the same guns as bigger mechs or tanks.
On an Alpha basis I think - tanks before Mechs before fighters - DPS might be the same.

#13 Magam Flamesmith

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 12:54 PM

One thought about LRM minimum range.

The arcing issue makes a lot of sense (harder to hit because of the angle) it does not work well when you look at the Atlas' LRM position in the tabletop game (from the hip)
Especially when you compare it to mechs such as the Mad Dog (which angle it's launchers like the IS does, but doesn't have the minimum range)

I know you dislike the "LRM do not arm within 180 meters range" but why not both explanations?
Mechs like the Atlas might not arm (since the angle issue does not work there) and others have to work with a higher firing angle?


Edit: was going to add pictures. Some pictures show the Mad Dog's missiles coming straight forward.
Some do not.

Posted Image


Atlas missiles on the hip

Posted Image

Forward mounted LRM

Posted Image

Upward angled


Posted Image

Forward AND up?!
Vulture/Mad Dog got issues man.

Edited by Magam Flamesmith, 19 January 2018 - 01:02 PM.


#14 Karl Streiger

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 12:14 AM

Well first you need to consider that minimal ranges are a term of balancing of the initial tabletop game.
Otherwise it would be the same all PPC and LRM nonsense we've got with the clans.


However when you really want a 20 missiles strong volley per LRM 20 launcher the simple way is to consider each barrel as a automatic grenade launcher.
In this case the initial stage would be a non guided ballistic. And much harder to hit something.

Here a picture for the size of a 90mm guided LRM and a 105mm SRM around 13kg launch weight for the SRM and 8.5kg for the LRM.
The weight of the launch automatic would be increased even a sin noises low powered gun would weight more than a simple launchtube.
Posted Image

And those missiles swarms would be a grave danger to tanks. Consider a volley of 20 guided missiles in a top down attack on a tank column. Consider that the Israeli LAHAT has a mission kill probability of 95%. So a Mad Dog could destroy a tank battalion with one volley.



#15 Koniving

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 09:42 PM

Edit: Minor corrections.

Not entirely sure how that applies to the minimum range issue. (Karl's missile tidbits and in real life, such missiles might be able to take out tanks pretty easily, though from playing Battletech while the Mad Dog can make quick work of tanks, it isn't that easily done.)

Side note: LRM ranges (and the Catapult) were based on the 1980s American MLRS.

The 180 meter minimum range (to forego an accuracy penalty) is akin to the minimum range of the MLRS... in which it can fire upon targets closer than that distance but such could not be achieved without losing the its accuracy. Specifically the range is "a minimum engagement range of 15 km (9.3 mi)." Below this range, the accuracy of the weapon falls to an unacceptable level, due in only in part to the projectile speeds achieving mach 2.5 at the time of impact when firing to its maximum range of 70 kilometers.

LRMs, similarly, are supposed to be pretty fast though not that fast. Maybe mach 1 fast if even. Such that often enhanced tracking systems are apparently not used (and I imagine Artemis enhanced LRMs are probably slower moving though much more accurate), and that sometimes as indicated in my most recent post here by quoting one of the books, they literally use track-less rockets instead in the LRM launchers. In the MLRS example, however, speed is one of many issues that contribute to inaccurate fire below that range. Others include: the inability to raise the launcher vertically enough to achieve a good angle, the missile being unable to make sharp enough turns or if pointed straight up, no guarantees it could make the correct turn. And if lobbed directly at a target (which has been done in the past), there would be no ability for the missiles to course correct under such short distances let alone register what the target even is.

In this example, however...
Posted Image
With an impossibly good gunner (0 gunnery skill; the lower the number the better the skill is [for most skills]), I was able to hit all but one of these targets. The Atlas is getting twin AC/10s to the back (and dies), but the other four targets are on the receiving ends of 1 LRM-5 each, with all four launchers mounted on the front of the tank's body.
At 30 meters per hex, you can see multiple targets are in the minimum range.
Only one target is missed; the one closest to my tank standing in 0904. Instead, the missiles land hex 0803 and detonate there, for a starting fire check which fails due to the surface being gravel with no combustible substances. Hex 0803 is 90 meters away (but note the missiles detonated and checked for fire). The intended target in hex 0904 is 60 meters away. And another target I hit so badly I cripple the Enforcer's legs and break an actuator in hex 1007 is 90 meters away. Again meaning detonation is achieved below 180 meters.

Out of curiousity I ran some tests. Had the target I missed been one hex south, still 60 degrees away but more forward of my position instead of so far off to the right (where the missiles had to do a sharp C-shaped turn to try and hit him), there's a 6 out of 10 chance that I would have hit him. But given his position, hitting him is 0 out of 10, since he is so far off to the side of my launcher. Which is realistic, missiles don't shoot out the side, and can't turn that quickly.

Moving him to the West (left) to the Commando's position in hex 0704, however, tested out at 7 out of 10 tries resulting in hits.
A target directly in front of the tank, however, only had 1 out of 10 tries actually succeeding... Were the tank not immobile, this jumps to 3 out of 10 tries. At such a range, tracking systems no longer matter it is trying to hit a target with a rocket propelled bullet at such a close range.

People tend to cite the Aries Convention as to why PGI's LRMs don't do damage below 180mm, but second paragraph, lines 2 and 3 indicate the laws of war were thrown out in the very first Succession War.
Posted Image
So basically that's out. I mean this is the war where one PTSD-stricken pilot coped by finding fun in stomping on the little ants running from a school as he laughed and sang... those ants were children. His comrades took to shooting them (the kids) down to spare them from adding to the smudges under the feet of 25 tons of "demented joy."
Nobody cared about "safety" when it came to firing missiles. Collateral damage was considered a bonus.

Missiles never changed between the first succession war and our current time.

I do concede that I believe some LRMs should go up and over and others should shoot straight and not just IS up and over and Clan shooting straight, and I believe an Atlas's LRMs should be among those that do lob straight.
Part of the reason for the minimum range aside from balance, as minimum range accuracy penalties are on so many weapons including Autocannons, is to account for Mechs, which a mech's maneuverability is what sets it apart from tanks and other combat vehicles. Reasonably quick changes in direction, ability to move almost like a human, and its DI computer's ability to autonomously identify projectiles and other potential collisions and automatically attempt to avoid them so long as the pilot doesn't intend to 'take' them. Much like if you're running through the woods and you see a tree branch in your path, you'd make the necessary adjustment to your body to avoid it or if you couldn't avoid it in time, you'd bring your arm into the way to deflect it to minimize the damage

(This is actually why hits in tabletop are so prone to nailing arms, and why you can hit the front torsos of a mech when attacking it from the rear [and hit rear when attacking it from the front, which theoretically could happen if the mech over-compensates a defensive maneuver], and why you can only "call" your shots if the enemy mech is powered down, knocked down, or if the pilot is unconscious as those are the only times the DI computer will either be unable to or simply won't try to defend itself... the later being if the pilot is unconscious as the DI computer is programmed not to act without pilot intent; apparently a fear and countermeasure to Terran Hegemony's capital-ship sized robots that I recently discovered. Will have that included in a future post).

The DI's autonomy is dependent however on the pilot being conscious in order to obtain intent. Does the pilot intend to protect itself from this threat or to endure it?

I have the perfect example, but first I need to preface it.
From a series of tests for my project of Security Mechs based on PatLabor and original creations, I had 3 pilots. Ota, Izumi Noa, and some random dude. The first two are from PatLabor and chosen due to their extremely different skills. Ota is a brazen, wreckless pilot that is clumsy, impatient, but an amazing crack shot even without using the aid of targeting systems. Izumi on the other hand is a terrible shot, largely because she doesn't really believe in guns. Her love of the machine and somewhat humiliating fumbles led her to really advance her skills in controlling it, even to the point of playing Cats Craddle (a puzzle involving yarn on the fingers) to practice extremely delicate moves. Her piloting skills subsequently yielded an unparalleled mastery of melee combat. Thus Ota has exceptional gunnery skills and Izumi has exceptional piloting skills. The third guy's just an in between to represent a normal balanced person.

I took the three pilots and cloned them, gave each one a separate AI with a personality setup fitting of the characters, so Ota's AI would be aggressive, stupidly courageous and wreckless (doesn't care about failure risks or self harm).. Izumi's AI would be cautious, tactful, etc. And the third guy would just be basic betty. I then pit them against each other to test my mechs and to ensure they weren't overpowered.

And so we come down to where intent plays out. On side 1, the regular guy and Izumi lose their mechs. Side 2 loses Ota; he died after a three punch from Izumi (melee specialist and melee master skills from A Time of War) combo crushed the cockpit. Izumi and the third guy from Side 1, however, both lost their mechs. The pilots are now roaming the battlefield in harm's way. So side 1 just has Ota in a mech and two pilots on the ground. Side 2 has Izumi and the third guy. Ota charges into the open and picks up Izumi-1. He returns fire when fired upon and rushes to pick up the second friendly pilot. There is now a pilot in each hand. He has stopped engaging in combat and is instead retreating; despite having AI settings to never retreat. He uses the forests to help mitigate damage, and soon stuffs one of the pilots into a building. The other he stuffs into his cargo bay. Then he is ready to fight and does so. (Will also bring a greater detail of that fight either here or in the hypothetical thread).

The "intent" here for taking damage is in wanting to protect the pilots he rescued, which overrode the DI computer's automatic attempts to try and avoid harm. TechManual gives its own example, if you're too close to a building it would lower the mech's arms to prevent from colliding with the building. It is more interested in avoiding damage to itself than the building. But if the pilot wanted to fire its weapons through the building at a target on the other side and intended for the arms to go through the building first... then they will. Otherwise, they would do this without going through the building first.

Back to the missiles.. This leaves a question on the Clan side, why don't they? And its like the PPC, supposedly too heavy to swing around easily yet the ER PPC breaks this. Different people, different rules and the fluff didn't mesh. Note that at the time of conception, PPCs were mostly mounted on arms and in many cases mounted as hand-held weapons. In ER PPC's conception they were mounted into the arms and inside the body. So not being able to swing the body because the weight in the barrel of the gun...made no sense. Thus they came up with the PPC field inhibitor, which degrades the particle beam conception from nearly instant to taking up to 2 seconds (Panther's Lord's Light PPC though many take less time) prior to firing with the excuse is if they didn't, then the weapon could explode. Turning it off removes the accuracy penalty. But even with the penalty, you can still hit targets at point blank. Note the Panther mentioned above from the novels, and frequently I've had Awesomes fire 3 PPCs from an adjacent hex to another mech and often have 2 out of 3 PPCs hit. They always do damage when they hit. But like autocannons and their minimum ranges, it is expected that mechs would try to dodge.

Clan LRMs were made as such to demonstrate their superiority. The simple end is akin to their lore, they fire straight on targets and do not use ballistic launch angles. But since the rule for a weapon governs all use and doesn't account for edge cases... yeah. So it is a generic rule for lower accuracy at set ranges for the IS version. This means either the Clan missiles are superior in their tracking, slower moving, or a number of other factors. Could simply be that they don't have the issue with closer range due to superior torso twist speeds, easier time getting the aim just right compared to the IS.

"Hotloaded" LRMs is a TacOps rule with an interesting implication that kind of solves this. By the name you'd think it means armed from the start. This isn't actually the case. Apparently... under the fluff for hotloading LRMs... IS missiles don't load into the tubes until you tell them to fire.

Lock target. Pull trigger. THEN Missiles load into the tubes, feed the target data and fire.
Whereas Clans:
Missiles already in tubes. Lock target. Pull trigger. Feed target data (quicker) and fire.
Whereas hotloaded IS:
Missiles already in tubes. Lock target. Pull trigger. Feed target data and fire.

But that version has implications.
Shoot IS launcher. It doesn't work anymore.
Shoot Clan launcher. It explodes.
Shoot hotloaded IS launcher. It explodes.

Notice something? This implies the Clans always have their missiles hotloaded into the tubes, meaning very little if any firing delay. Thus solving the "minimum range accuracy" issue. When you hotload LRMs into IS tubes, the same thing happens. This kinda fixes things but then, there's the issue of easily hitting targets that should be too close, and the randomness factor of trying to nail a target at point blank that's running by you which is then gone.

That is much like the solution to the PPC where ER PPCs don't "degrade" the firing cycle by artificially delaying it in order to keep the weapon from destroying itself.. as opposed to the ER PPC not needing to do that due to advancements... but the lack of a firing delay causes the ER PPC a lot of unmitigated excess heat generation in the process.

It also gives us ideas of how to balance it in a lore-bound simulation. As well as some launcher variety. Some launchers could hotload and some probably don't. Maybe some do feature safety systems. But most would not. Some could feature high speed, low correction rockets, others could have slower speed higher correction missiles.

Lots of variety, like all the versions of "assault rifle" in a Battlefield or Call of Duty game.

Also had some other neat ideas lately.... but another time.

Edited by Koniving, 22 January 2018 - 05:11 AM.


#16 Koniving

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 07:41 AM

View PostMagam Flamesmith, on 19 January 2018 - 12:54 PM, said:

Posted Image

Upward angled



To mention it, these are just forward. The black with white highlight is just the missile heads, note their direction.
The forward and upward angle of the last one is akin to how MWO ATMs fire.
Of course one can point at Catapults and say "they can shoot forward" and indeed they could.

You are most certainly right about the Atlas.

Posted Image
Between the D and K descriptions, the LRM launcher is hip mounted. The K specifically mentions that the hip mount of the old style LRM launcher remains as a husk since they didn't have time to remove it (and not specifically mentioned but I imagine part of that issue is having to design an armored replacement sheet since every Atlas ever had it before this 3050+ model, which the Atlas AS7-K was the first Atlas to feature an LRM-20 that used two columns of 10 tubes, allowing it to fire 20 missiles at once rather than in sequences of 5 every 2.5 seconds).

Of course, the scenario of hotloaded versus not introduces its own balancing issues.
Perhaps once loaded into the tubes, IS missiles are quite a bit faster than their Clan counterparts, with only slightly reduced tracking ability (or the same tracking but given that it is going faster, it won't have as much time to turn as far as the Clan version).

Ultimately.. n a scenario where shots of most autocannons and lasers are not exceeding 4 damage at the high end, the little details of missiles won't really render them obsolete. And with a sub hitbox system dividing the 11 hitboxes into smaller hitboxes with armor and structure distributed logically through them (places with visually heavier armor would have heavier armor than others, such as shoulder pauldrons and hip armor).
Examples using each on mechs:
Shoulder paldrons
Hip Armor
With a locational crit system, one can remove the 'dice' of crits by allowing players to deliberately focus fire on specific sub-sections of mechs to try and disable weapons, ammo, equipment and actuators. I envision this heavier armor in logical locations would also provide additional protection to specific targets such as the shoulder and hip actuators. This would also make the geometry of different mechs, and different variants of the same mech, to make them all the more unique.

Armor distribution in such a system would be the player could distribute armor to the 11 sections as normal. Percentages of them would be logically distributed to sub-sections. This prevents certain types of min/maxing. We can then take mech shields, which can mounted on arms and torso sections, and allow players to reinforce their armor in specific sections with the cost of additional weight (and consuming space that would otherwise be used by weapons or other equipment). The Centurion's arm shield would be one such example, since the original model doesn't actually carry a shield. The arm would need some use, which in a Battletech Sim would still have several including improvised weapons, retrieving things, support in getting up, and most importantly melee.

I've got some ideas on that too, but another time.

#17 Karl Streiger

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 02:46 AM

speaking of corporations...

the Simpson LRM on Stuka as well as the Exostar LRM on the Chippewea are unique weapons. The Exostar is known for laser weapons, so this LRM is a exception. (or is it a kind of missile with a one-shot laser head?) - with stand off missiles this guy seems to be a very capable long range drop ship interceptor.

Were as the Stuka as prim ground attack craft, might use a special kind of LRM that does not make sense to be used in Mechs or other dropships.

Are there other unique weapons that are not used on other designs?

#18 Koniving

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 02:16 PM

I've missed this post! I'll keep an eye out. The only truly unique weapons I can think of include the FarFire LRM (no other mech or vehicle uses an LRM launcher specifically designed to rapidly reload and fire from 5 tubes that I know of), the Tomodzuru Mount type 20 (its exceedingly rare and becoming extinct which is one of numerous reasons it gets replaced with the much more common Kali-Yama Big Bore on Crucis Type V chassis Hunchbacks), and the Goliath's machine guns are apparently exceptional... both in praise and in problems... though I do not know if they are unique. Russal Blue Beam had an exceptional story to it, but it doesn't seem to be shared with the mech using them... in fact there seems to be a large disconnect there which is really disappointing.

Will keep an eye out. Gonna be working overtime for the next three weeks, part of that will be spent reading about BT.
___________________

In the mean time, I debated whether to bring this to the hypothetical thread or here, and I decided that since it talks about multiple corporations, it would be better to bring it here. This is in response to someone about how they like to imagine that the weights given are the maximum carry weights as a means of making more sense of BT. In it, I kinda go into how the given weight classes are neither the actual weights nor the maximum carry weights.. using the Powerman, the Loader King, the Buster and finally an Atlas.

TL;DR: If you're short on time, skip until after the second spoiler within the quote for the quick version.

So this comes from another thread, but I thought it fun to put here.

View PostKoniving, on 10 March 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

Thing is... it isn't really its carrying capacity... or its actual mass. It takes a bit of digging, but...

Lets take the Powerman.

Remember that each cargo container takes a ton, regardless of whether it is full or empty...

The base SC Powerman Haulermech according to Sarna.net has 3 cargo bays (2 tons each) and two lifting hoists.
The Haulermech is 35 tons..supposedly.
But unloaded, its actually 29 tons, give or take.
And fully loaded its 35 + 17.5 tons + 17.5 tons = 70 tons.

Catalyst's version of the Powerman "Haulermech" is actually arguably inferior to the original Powerman entry, as while the mech can carry 6 tons of equipment, it has the issue that it would only be allowed to carry 3 containers so if you had 5 containers of 1 ton each, the Powerman couldn't haul all 5 containers despite having a ton left over in space for hauling containers... but the original Powerman "Loadermech" could.

Note: This is as far as you really need to go for my point, the rest is a rant on huge retcons done within only 4 years of each other... Only continue on if you care about how absurd Catalyst can be.
Spoiler


Another thing I find interesting, is that apparently the traditional max weight of a Hauler mech is 50 tons, and they could haul up to 61 tons.
This goes into PGI's Roughneck, the Loader King, the most popular community made artwork and "build" associated with it, and the story of my own design that coincidentally targeted 50 tons rather than 65 tons due to a number of factors as told here, without having known about the fluff given for non-powerman Hauler mechs.
Spoiler


But anyway... On the original point of the comment...

Powerman:
  • Actual weight is 30 to 29 tons unloaded but fueled depending on which version (Topps Fanpro original or Topps Catalyst retcon in that order)
  • Given weight is 35 tons.
  • Max carrying in hand is 35 tons.
  • Maximum cargo haul 5 containers strapped + 1 or 2 in hands max mass 40 to 41 tons depending on which version (original or retcon in that order)
  • True max weight is 70 tons.
Buster:
  • Actual weight is 39 tons unloaded but fueled.
  • Given weight is 50 tons.
  • Carrying in hand weight is 50 tons.
  • Maximum cargo haul 3 containers strapped + 1 or 2 in hands max mass 56 tons.
  • Maximum possible weight under full carry weight is 100 tons.
  • (Note the fluff states the Buster can haul 15 tons of ore on its mounts, but only has 11 tons worth of cargo container mounts.)
Buster XXI:
  • Actual weight is again 39 tons.
  • Given weight is 50 tons.
  • Carrying in hand weight is 100 tons (due to TSM in addition to lift hoists).
  • Maximum cargo haul 3 containers + hands max mass 111 tons.
  • Maximum possible weight under full load is 150 tons.
Loader King (Koniving's design) : (Note: This was without knowing of the existence of the Buster, see spoiler above).
  • Actual weight is 44 tons.
  • Given weight is 50 tons.
  • Carrying in hand weight is 50 tons.
  • Maximum cargo haul 3 containers + hands max mass 56 tons.
  • Maximum possible weight under full load is 100 tons.
Would compare Justin Kase's Loader King pre-and-post construction-rule-friendly but he doesn't have a specific number of cargo container mounts or sizes mentioned.


Atlas AS7-D for comparison, to share how it works without lift-hoist enhanced arms...
....according to TRO 2750 Atlas D and BT Master Rules (revised) for carrying capacity page 77: (Rule is identical in the original, too).
  • Actual weight (unloaded, empty bins but fueled and all weapons) 95 tons.
  • Given weight (ammo bins full) 100 tons.
  • Carrying in hand weight is "10% of a mech's given weight"... so 10 tons.
    • Note: the Battletech Memorial gives the optional rule: 10% of a mech's given weight per hand, so 20 tons maximum lifting weight).
  • Maximum possible weight under load: 110 or 120 tons.
Side note:

While prodding Juodas on an old comment about Battletech rules encompassing like...everything.. I made a jab about the rules having beast-mounted infantry straddling killer whales with torpedo tubes... in which he showed me this which made me realize the example listed for fliers... is a goofy name for what's effectively DRAGONS IN BATTLETECH!
Posted Image
Beware there be dragons eating your mechs!
And here I thought it was gonna be funny mounting infantry on Megasaurs (also given as an example of beast mounted infantry)
Posted Image

So...yeah. Posted Image I'm gonna stop talking before I veer off into a whole different territory altogether.


#19 Koniving

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 05:49 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 31 January 2018 - 02:46 AM, said:

speaking of corporations...

the Simpson LRM on Stuka as well as the Exostar LRM on the Chippewea are unique weapons. The Exostar is known for laser weapons, so this LRM is a exception. (or is it a kind of missile with a one-shot laser head?) - with stand off missiles this guy seems to be a very capable long range drop ship interceptor.

Were as the Stuka as prim ground attack craft, might use a special kind of LRM that does not make sense to be used in Mechs or other dropships.

Are there other unique weapons that are not used on other designs?

I think I've seen the Simpson LRM on a mech. Sarna offers no special description; looking at Mech Factory since they take straight from the TROs..
Graceful despite its size (100 tons) Performs like a medium craft in 'Most' situations.
Primarily House Davion by monopoly..
Performs well against dropships.
D6, D7, K10, K15, K5, K5B.. Wasn't able to find how the Simpson is unique (or any details on it). :(

Though apparently, despite the unique nature of the Farfire Maxi Rack on the Atlas... Its also produced for the Griffin and Hunter.
This quest has led to a good corporate sourcebook though!
"Objective Raids" apparently has numerous corporations listed and what they produce. FASA-written (that's a plus in my book), published 1992.

Clan era, timeline 3054.

http://www.sarna.net...r_and_Armaments is listed as having Farfire Maxi Racks in the LRM-10 range...
Taurus Territorial Industries also apparently makes them in the LRM-20 range. Both of these companies lack citations, though.

Dynamics has a citation, however. So now I have a book to look at.

Now the Chippewa w5, w5b, w7, w7t, w8, w10, Gladestone X-P and IIC...
Exostar - reliable. Replacement parts are modular.
Exostar is both in the form of an LRM-15 and an SRM on the Chippewa.
Lasers are provided with extra insulation, when they are used it behaves like an additional two heatsinks (so reduce the overall laser heat by two [to a maximum of -2 heat regardless of the number of lasers fired] before applying heatsink cooling). Vehicle-inherent trait (not a laser brand specific trait).
Supplies of this extra insulation has become scarce so many models in the third succession war era no longer have this feature (it returns later between fourth succession war and clan invasion, however).

W7t has new lore... Has the full 30 tubes for its twin LRM-15s. These are no longer Exostar. Just unspecified "LRM-15 + Artemis."
Medium lasers remain the same brand. Small (pulse) lasers have become Martell brand. Generic Plasma Rifles. Generic Snub Nose PPCs. Still sports Exostar SRM (+Artemis).

Exostar LRMs are also made for the Lucifer, in LRM-20 form.

Lucifer, entertainingly, changes brand name between variants.
The R16 uses Farfire Maxi-Rack LRM-20 (with only 5 tubes, yay!)
R15 is using Exostar OR Holly, depending on where it was built
All other variants either drop the LRM or are using Farfire Maxi-Rack.

Sarna says it uses Holly. The Dynamics page states it is using Exostar. Mech Factory says it depends on what is available to the factory, BUT... there's no factory locations listed.

So... Huh.
Would it be different factories, or just what the factory could get their hands on at the time?
Curious. Couldn't find out what made them unique, though.

If anything's unique, I'd think its the McCorkel Lasers... Never even heard of that brand before.
McCorkel is listed on the Swift.
Produced by http://www.sarna.net...aletra_Fighters

#20 Koniving

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 06:02 AM

McCorkel Large Lasers are also found on Black Knights.

Bowie Industries provides the factories the Chippewa and its parts are manufactured on.

So McCorkel isn't proprietary. You'd think that these companies producing weapons would be very protective of their rights. Unless they are sub-licensing their production but in doing so they open themselves to a lot of issues...





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