Jump to content

Uziel And "mobile Harassment Niche" Madness.


49 replies to this topic

#1 The Lighthouse

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 1,136 posts

Posted 13 December 2017 - 05:07 AM

It took me a while. Because with ever decreasing interest in game, I actually did not read the patch note carefully.


But now I did read, and this particular sentence is.... to put it plainly, complete nonsense.


Well, to be honest, more of insanity.


Uziel's design just does not allow to fulfill such role correctly, and we have to wonder if such 'niche' should be fulfilled in the first place.




1. So what is mobile harassment niche? WTF is this in the first place?


One problem is there is really no solid definition for 'mobile harassment niche'? I can conjure that PGI probably meant 'durr hurr long-range poking', the fact that Uziel got weird and useless 10% range quirks.

Well, first time that came to my mind when I saw 'mobile harassment niche' was... light mechs. They are actually mobile, excellent harassment mechs. Light mechs are....

1) Far more mobile.
2) Far smaller than Uziel.
3) with most of them actually have defensive quirks and offensive quirks.


And they are good at that. And of course, on top of all three, light mechs also can cover "long-range poking" really well. Even classic Raven with ERLL is still workable thanks to high-mount hardpoints and a properly placed cockpit view.

'mobile harassment niche' is not even really niche when there are entire mech weight class almost dedicated to this role.

And then we add mechs like Cicada and other mechs like Hunche and Shadow Hawk, one must realize Uziel actually has TONS of competition here. No matter how much PGI can increase its mobility, Uziel is still a medium mech and cannot match those agile light mechs in the first place. Only advantages Uziel has are...

1) More weight for more weapons.
2) More durability due to increased armor... oh wait.

Do you see the problem here? there are SO MANY mechs that can do mobile harassment so well that this area is so crowded. Uziel with such weak quirks and horrid physical aspects just cannot compete against well-established favorites.

Then how about long-range poking only?




2. Long-Range Poking is dominated by Clan mechs.


What's the merit of having Uziel as long-range poking, when IS tech just does not give the mech edge against Clan mechs? Even with 10% range boost, Clan mechs are going to outrange Uziel with no problems. I mean unless the mech has godlike hardpoint locations like Battlemaster, there is little reason to pick Uziel over any jump-capable Clan medium mechs.

And speaking of Long-Range Poking, does physical shape of Uziel fit for such fight?




3. Terrible shape for long-range fight.


Uziel has several flaws.

1) The mech is really, really wide, thus having serious convergence issue. Not so much problem for short-medium range, but for long range it is getting hard to properly damage mechs that are moving. Really troublesome for PPC.

2) Cockpit is located on the center of the mech, which means Uziel suffers Stormcrow Problem; the enemy sees you before you see them. Terrible for hill-hopping.

3) Hardpoints are relatively placed high, but they are all over the places. This makes convergence issue EVEN worse, and severely cripples the mech's ability of corner poking, as if wide nature of Uziel was not enough for crippling that ability.

4) Because the legs are really thin and long, thanks to so called "volumatric scaling", Uziel is quite fat. It's huge, wide, suffers very same problem that mechs like Awesome suffers.

High-mounted hardpoints are definitely strong, but they are mostly negated by terrible cockpit placement. One of the reasons why Rifleman is better for long-range, poking fight than Jagermech.

All of those flaws would be somewhat solved by quirks, if 'mobile harassment niche' was actually 'niche' and not many mechs cover this role. But even in IS side we have excellent mechs like Shadow Hawk, Enforcer or Hunchback if we give up jumpjet for mediums alone.

There are properly quirked mechs like even Vindicator 1AA would be far better PPC poptart than Uziel ever hopes to be, because Vindicator actually has enough armor to survive incoming fire from poptarting.




4. Uziel is suffering "support fire light mech" problem.


I cannot stop thinking about mechs like Adder, Kitfox and Cougar when I look at Uziel. Uziel is really oversized support fire light mech. Just like Cougar Uziel can carry a lot of weapons, but the size is too huge and the agility is not enough to save the mech from having low-armor / bad hitboxes.

If Uziel was a Clan mech, the solution would be quite easy. I could just slap the biggest XL engine so the Uzeil can move as fast as light mechs. Problem solved. Except I cannot do that because Uziel is an IS mech, and with such physical shape XL engine is out of question. And even if I equip XL engine, the sheer weight of IS weapons mean I am not also allowed to put many weapons if I put the biggest engine on this particular mech. So the speed is basically out of question.

PGI is doing absolute best to not apply defensive quirks on Uziel, but I am also absolutely confident that this mech will be forever trash, so called "It's a TRAP" mech for newbies until the mech gets massive defensive quirks that even Bushwacker would jealously look at.

#2 Anjian

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • 3,735 posts

Posted 13 December 2017 - 05:10 AM

There is a simple word for this "mobile harasser."

Skirmisher.

#3 CK16

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Cub
  • The Cub
  • 3,031 posts
  • LocationAlshain V

Posted 13 December 2017 - 05:34 AM

Do you like the Shadowcat? Can you play a Shadowcat? If so translates to the Uziel well I would say. You are a good mech, until it is shot...

#4 Juodas Varnas

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 7,534 posts
  • LocationGrand Duchy of Lithuania

Posted 13 December 2017 - 05:35 AM

View PostAnjian, on 13 December 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

There is a simple word for this "mobile harasser."

Skirmisher.

Like the Scorpion.

#5 The Lighthouse

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 1,136 posts

Posted 13 December 2017 - 05:37 AM

View PostCK16, on 13 December 2017 - 05:34 AM, said:

Do you like the Shadowcat? Can you play a Shadowcat? If so translates to the Uziel well I would say. You are a good mech, until it is shot...


1) It's Clan mech, with Clan tech.
2) It's quite fast.
3) Cockpit is placed on much saner location (read : top of the mech)
4) It's quite small.

Shadow Cat actually lacks hardpoints a bit, but Clan weaponary covers that problem. Convergence is definitely issue... as long as you are trying to use both arms. But usually just two PPCs on one arm and nearby side torso is more than enough (or ERLLs, or two Heavy Large lasers) which lessens the convergence issue.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 13 December 2017 - 05:38 AM.


#6 CK16

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Cub
  • The Cub
  • 3,031 posts
  • LocationAlshain V

Posted 13 December 2017 - 05:46 AM

View PostThe Lighthouse, on 13 December 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:


1) It's Clan mech, with Clan tech.
2) It's quite fast.
3) Cockpit is placed on much saner location (read : top of the mech)
4) It's quite small.

Shadow Cat actually lacks hardpoints a bit, but Clan weaponary covers that problem. Convergence is definitely issue... as long as you are trying to use both arms. But usually just two PPCs on one arm and nearby side torso is more than enough (or ERLLs, or two Heavy Large lasers) which lessens the convergence issue.


True. But the tech gap is not that large of an issue really. (In a 1 v 1 a Shadowcat and Uziel are pretty even IMO). I was just saying the play style is very much the same. A play style that not everyone can handle though. Same for the Thanatos, it is simular to the Summoner I would say, and sometimes a difficult mech to play right, but is possible though do well consistently if you know how to run it.

#7 ANOM O MECH

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • 993 posts

Posted 13 December 2017 - 06:43 AM

I don't have a problem with the Uziel. All of mine are fast and mobile. Jump jets help me mitigate hitbox issues. Just don't see what the complaint is.

#8 CK16

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Cub
  • The Cub
  • 3,031 posts
  • LocationAlshain V

Posted 13 December 2017 - 06:50 AM

View Posttker 669, on 13 December 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

I don't have a problem with the Uziel. All of mine are fast and mobile. Jump jets help me mitigate hitbox issues. Just don't see what the complaint is.


IMHO? Because some players refuse to play a mech to its strengths in a playstyle outside of their traditional style. They want a mech to be able to copy paste a loadout into it and prefer the same or better then the prior chassis. Like you said Jump Jets for mobility and GTFO from line of fire, but how many players load up on Jump jets? How many just take 1 or 2 instead of the 3+ usually found on all jumping mechs? That right there should say what they expect of the mech if they do not pay attention to its jump capacity and ignore it all together.

#9 Mole

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,314 posts
  • LocationAt work, cutting up brains for a living.

Posted 13 December 2017 - 07:22 AM

I play my Uziel as a skirmisher (A.K.A. "mobile harasser") quite well. I move quickly because I have a large engine. I strike at targets at range with 4 ERMLs. When I see an opportunity, I zoom in and unload with a single RAC/5 until the targets is either dead or my weapon has jammed, then I zip away until a new opportunity presents itself. It's quite good at this. I imagine it will be even better at it now that its agility has been increased.

#10 McGoat

    Banned -Cheating

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Gold Champ
  • CS 2019 Gold Champ
  • 629 posts

Posted 13 December 2017 - 08:08 AM

Play the Uziel like a Summoner - problem solved. A good player doesn't only hill hump vertically anyways, so cockpit location is only part of the equation.

#11 GrimRiver

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 1,306 posts
  • LocationIf not here and not there, then where?

Posted 13 December 2017 - 08:33 AM

It's ST's are too huge to run XL's reliably, so that leaves LFE or STD and that gives little room to work with and ends up being less mobile, which is weird given that I can usually pack more firepower in Hunchbacks(50 ton) while being pretty mobile for non JJ mechs.

What ever niche it's apart of it can't even do it that well, there's lighter more durable mechs with better firepower to fill the roll better.

If PGI won't give it's ST more durability then make it to a glass cannon with more offensive quirks.

#12 UnofficialOperator

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,493 posts
  • LocationIn your head

Posted 13 December 2017 - 08:40 AM

Pretty sure the Srmmando and the Srmassin are better skirmishers or killers even.

#13 Juodas Varnas

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 7,534 posts
  • LocationGrand Duchy of Lithuania

Posted 13 December 2017 - 08:42 AM

View PostUnofficialOperator, on 13 December 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

Pretty sure the Srmmando and the Srmassin are better skirmishers or killers even.

I think they're more of a "striker" role than the "skirmisher"

#14 Asym

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Nova Captain
  • 2,186 posts

Posted 13 December 2017 - 09:01 AM

OK, as a non-Lore player, is PGI using a BT or lore based definition? Anyone know? Because if they are, then, that might explain some of their apparently insane nerfs.....

Anyone know for sure?

#15 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 4,806 posts

Posted 13 December 2017 - 09:38 AM

It just happens to be the one IS 50 ton mech that is setup to be a skirmisher rather than a brawler.

We already have the Centurion, Crab, Enforcer, Hunchback, and Trebuchet setup with various levels of brawling, whether it be MPL boating, large AC with lasers, or SRM spam. Uziel is different in that it gets super good mobility for peeking, poptarting, and mid-long range builds.

Just fit the thing with dual ERPPC or dual HPPC, some jump jets, an XL engine, and as many jump jets as you can fit and just don't get hit.

#16 Gas Guzzler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 14,244 posts
  • LocationCalifornia Central Coast

Posted 13 December 2017 - 11:20 AM

Everyone hates the Uziel a lot more than I do, and I don't even like mediums.

Posted Image

#17 Y E O N N E

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 16,810 posts

Posted 13 December 2017 - 11:20 AM

Has nobody here played a BJ-1X? I can't see the [energy] Uziel being much different than that.

Though I do have to LOL at the Uziel and Shadowcat being even comment. The SHC will SRM-bomb the Uziel and that will be the end of it.

#18 Gas Guzzler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 14,244 posts
  • LocationCalifornia Central Coast

Posted 13 December 2017 - 11:26 AM

The only Uziel build I like playing is the 4 ERML Gauss build.

#19 MechaBattler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 5,119 posts

Posted 13 December 2017 - 11:42 AM

They should consider giving it heat reduction quirks so it doesn't have to bring extra heat sinks. Thereby saving it weight. They should give it armor quirk on top of the structure quirks, but just for the shoulders. So that running an XL can be somewhat viable. If they want mobile harasser perhaps they should consider a speed tweak quirk. Also weapon quirks that actually cater to it's hard points in a good way! I can tell you where you can put the machine gun quirks on the 5P!

And finally. Bring it lower to the ground! It's too damn tall. It looks like an Independence Day alien reject. We should have that low to the ground loping predator look. Not an awkward gangly creature that would probably fall over rather easily.

#20 Weeny Machine

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,982 posts
  • LocationAiming for the flat top (B. Murray)

Posted 13 December 2017 - 12:06 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 13 December 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

Has nobody here played a BJ-1X? I can't see the [energy] Uziel being much different than that.

Though I do have to LOL at the Uziel and Shadowcat being even comment. The SHC will SRM-bomb the Uziel and that will be the end of it.

I can't remember the last time I have seen a SCH with SRMs. They seem to carry lasers or ppc





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users