27 replies to this topic

[RedDragon]

*Spoiler alert*

Well I found the movie quite entertaining and not bad. But indeed there were so many illogical things and plot holes, I really wondered how seemingly no one in production raised an eyebrow on that. The biggest gripe I have with it is that the whole sub-plot with Finn and Rose was unnecessary and meaningless. If Holdor had told Poe from the beginning why she wanted to evacuate the ship, there would have been no reason for them to fly to Casino-City - and the plan would have worked because there wouldn't have been a "master code breaker" to betray them. Holdor had absolutely no reason not to tell them the reason for evacuating - quite the opposite, she knew Poe was a hotshot and it was wantonly negligent to let him in the dark because she could have known he'd try something again.

And how stuff like "blaster shots that travel on a ballistic arc - in space" didn't catch the attention of anyone during production just eludes me. As does the fact that capital ships still have no point-defense against lone fighters after all the other movies where exactly the same happened again and again - and yet they didn't scramble their fighter escorts in time to shoot down Poe before he could cripple that Dreadnought.

[IllCaesar]

*SPOILER TALK*

RedDragon, on 30 December 2017 - 05:35 AM, said:

Holdor had absolutely no reason not to tell them the reason for evacuating - quite the opposite, she knew Poe was a hotshot and it was wantonly negligent to let him in the dark because she could have known he'd try something again.

I disagree. Remember how he was just demoted by Leia for leading a senseless charge against an enemy dreadnought which decimated their fighter squadrons? If he hadn't done that they might've actually be able to keep the bridge from being destroyed. Its all hypothetical, sure, but would you pin your life on a flyboy hotshot who just got half of his copilots killed senselessly, didn't regret it, and has a general distrust and disregard for authority? First thing she should've done is put him in the brig, to be honest.

Quote

As does the fact that capital ships still have no point-defense against lone fighters after all the other movies where exactly the same happened again and again - and yet they didn't scramble their fighter escorts in time to shoot down Poe before he could cripple that Dreadnought.

The whole theme of the film is history and all of its failings repeating itself because people try too much to emulate it so it makes sense to me.

[RedDragon]

IllCaesar, on 30 December 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

*SPOILER TALK*



I disagree. Remember how he was just demoted by Leia for leading a senseless charge against an enemy dreadnought which decimated their fighter squadrons? If he hadn't done that they might've actually be able to keep the bridge from being destroyed. Its all hypothetical, sure, but would you pin your life on a flyboy hotshot who just got half of his copilots killed senselessly, didn't regret it, and has a general distrust and disregard for authority? First thing she should've done is put him in the brig, to be honest.

That doesn't really adress the point. Sure, she could have thrown him into a cell, most likely that would also have prevented any further disaster. But as she chose to keep him araound, not telling him about the whole plan was a dumb thing to do. And even if she hadn't told him directly, she should have told the rest of the crew. Why the heck should she have the whole crew thinking that they will most likely die when she could just have told the plan and given everyone a bit of hope? There is absolutely no reason for this apart from a surprise for the audience, but that is just bad story telling IMO.

[IllCaesar]

RedDragon, on 30 December 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

That doesn't really adress the point. Sure, she could have thrown him into a cell, most likely that would also have prevented any further disaster. But as she chose to keep him araound, not telling him about the whole plan was a dumb thing to do.

Again, why? He is a hotheaded flyboy that gets people killed needlessly because he thinks superificial heroics take precedent over getting the job done right.

Quote

And even if she hadn't told him directly, she should have told the rest of the crew. Why the heck should she have the whole crew thinking that they will most likely die when she could just have told the plan and given everyone a bit of hope?

What's to say that she didn't? There must've been at least thirty pilots, probably sixty if you count copilots, told about the plan. There were the people on the logistical end, managing fuel, personnel and equipment. There were plenty of folks in that makeshift operations room and Poe could figure out the plan with just a brief glimpse of the monitor I'm sure that everybody in that room knew what was going on. Altogether I think it would be safe to assume that at least a hundred people aboard the ship knew the plan.

That said, there were probably significantly more people who were deliberately left in the dark, which is a good choice. Remember, at this point Rose had stopped many folks who tried to abandon ship in an escape pod and presumably many more continued afterwards. If everybody had all of the details then it would only take one of them who didn't believe in the plan to sell all of the others out to the New Order in a deal to ensure their survival. Poe wasn't told because he was being a brazen dipshit oblivious to the consequences of his actions but that is just another form of distrust. Now there are instances where tons of people keeping their lips sealed about something so important can happen, D-Day being a fantastic example, but the more desperate folks are the more likely they are to do something, well, desperate.

Edited by IllCaesar, 30 December 2017 - 01:11 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Mighty Spike, on 28 December 2017 - 05:57 AM, said:

This true bout the movie?

yes yes let the hate flow through you.

see and so we know when mankind even established a jedi religion osme sith showed up making a movie to convert them to the dark side.

GG EEZ.

@cesar, these kind of YT videos are just clickbaits nearly all of them are badly made.

"10XYZ why this and that is wuzzafzzza random shittitle to make morons click"

Edited by Lily from animove, 31 December 2017 - 02:04 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Very mixed experience to me.

I would say that the directing was good, the actors did a great job IMO.
The effects and action looks really good, too.

But the story feels... weak.

SPOILERS:
1) TFA might be the real fault for setting this us, ultimately, but TLJ didn't find a satisfying solution.

We have to believe that while we weren't looking, Luke went from being the guy that tried (and arguably succeeded) to redeem Vader, and the guy that interrupted his Jedi Training under Yoda to save his friends, from a guy that abandonded his best friend, his sister, his nephew and the Republic he helped restore... Sure, if you make a movie all abotu this character development, maybe I could buy it. But if you put it in a brief dialog and a flashback scene... no, it just feels like a betrayal of everything the character stood for in the original movies. (And to be honest, Luke isn't the only one. That neither Han or Leia were really focusing on getting their son back from Snoke and the three weren't trying to eliminate Snokes for many years seems uncharatistic. They went after the Death Stars, after Vader and Palpatine, but not after the new evil dark lord on the rise, even though he had their son/nephew?)

2) We don't even get to see Luke's immediate reaction to Han's death. In f ct, the only reaction we see to it is that he still doesn't want to get involved?

3) The Canto subplot really feels... wrong and random. They go their to find a particular hacker, and then find another by pure chance because of what is basically a parking violation. And they are satisfied that they saved the enslaved animals, but don't worry about the kids?

4) The scene with Leia saving herself with the Force wasn't a bad idea IMO, but the executation was really lacking, it just didn't look good.

5) The Hyerspace Scene was kinda the opposite to the Leia scene. It was really an amazing and beautiful effect, but it feels like it's really telling a bad story from a story-teling perspective.

6) Force Ghosts calling lightning seem to me like it's a bit too much. Of course, Obi Wan claimed "If you strike me down now, I'll become more powerful than you ever imagined" (paraphrasing) to Vader, but that seemed to have more symbolic meaning then "Force Ghosts can manifest anywhere and blow stuff up with the force.

7) Holdos positive statement over Poe towards her end seemed completely unwarranted. From her perspective, he violated an order during the initial evacuation, then enacted a plan without her knowledge that horribly backfired and ruined her plan (that she unfortunately kept totally secret from him).


There were things I liked or have mixed feelings about.

When I accepted that Luke Skywalker was totally not like Luke Skywalker anymore, I think Mark Hamill's performance was great and his final fate seemed rather fitting (though the death scene itself could use some work, it looked abit awkward), mirroring Obi Wan's death somewhat, and mirroring his own beginning in ANH.

Ben / Kylo Ren semed to make the greatest character advancement, taking his fate into his own hands. I wasn't convinced by Kyo Ren in TFA, but I liked that they didn't try to make him a "Super-Vader", but instead more a "Vader-Wannabe". But he needed bit more than that, and I think he got that in this movie.

I also fundamentally like the idea of growth from failure, but I think it's actually a bit more than just failure if your plan onto only fails, but you accidentally give the enemy the information he needs to screw you really over.

I also kinda liked the idea that Rey's parents were not important, but particularly I liked the Dark Side Cavern scene. To me, it represents that the Dark Side might make tempting promises, but at least for Rey, it couldn't offer her what she actually wanted.

Unfortunately, that feels like pretty much all character development, and if we grow from failure, I am not sure she could really grow much in this movie - trying to convince Kylo Ren to abandon the Dark Side might be a failure, but in the whole affair, at least Snoke was destroyed. That's hardly the same type of failure that Luke experienced during Emperie Srikes Back.

If a goal of Disney/Rian Johnson however was to establish that you don't need to be a Skywalker or otherwise have a great heritage to be a Jedi, I have to note that all the Prequel Jedis probably didn't have particularly impressive parents either - the Jedi Order had some kind of chastistiy oath. It would have made more sense to make Rey an accidentally discovered force sensitive that joins Luke's new Jedi Order then making her some super-special Jedi that's so impressive that some Dark Side force user can feel her existence. Her being a wild card that no one expected or saw coming, but was still "just" a regular Jedi might be a more interesting story. (Maybe even more interesting would be the story of someone that wasn't supposed to be Force Sensitive somehow gaining the ability with training/dedication/meditation, because if Jedi abilities are always only an innate talent that no one can gain by himself, every Jedi is at least a bit a chosen one.)


What I don't really know is where the story would go on from here. The Last Jedi is similar to ESB in one key aspect - the heroes lose. But at the end of ESB, the heroes already are working on a plan to at least get Han out. (The whole Second Death Star revelation however is a bit of a deus ex machina.)

I think it really hurt the Star Wars franchise that they didn't really have a story outline for the trilogy. If they want to release new trilogies or movies, they really need to work harder on creating a world that could faciliate that.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 January 2018 - 04:53 AM.

[Mr Andersson]

It was ok. Better than TFA, but then again that's not saying much.

There were some highs and lows, but sadly the lows were super low. Like the "destruction by hyperspace" scene. Visually a beautiful scene, but it makes no sense in that universe. If you could do that, then space combat as we know it in Star Wars would not exist.

Also, I did not like the blatantly James Bond-esque Canto Bight sidetrack (that also had no bearing whatsoever on the story) and the Battlestar Galactica style pursuit of the Resistance fleet. And, by the way, why does a ship in space start to list and fall "down" when it runs out of fuel?

And all the slapstick humor. Yes, I know, Star Wars is supposed to sprinkle in these little quirky things every now and then. But there has to be a limit. And this movie passed it, and then some.

Leia flying through space. Please. Come on, Disney.

So, what was good? Well, the Porgs weren't as bad as I had feared. The desperate attack of the bombers in the beginning was a great start to the movie (although they could have focused a little less on a Korean chick kicking a ladder). I think they handled Luke pretty well (not counting the scene where he suddenly decides to murder one of his students, and then just as suddenly changes his mind). The weird bond between Rey and Kylo is an interesting story in itself.

I've heard a lot of people complain about the fact that we never got to know Snoke's identity. But that doesn't bother me so much. The trilogy is focusing more on Kylo as the main bad guy, and I think that's ok. And Kylo got a lot more interesting as a character in this movie than his weird emo performance in TFA.

So, all in all, not as bad as TFA. But nowhere close to the awesomeness of the real Star Wars movies (original trilogy and Rogue One).

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

Honestly I think they should let Bioware make their movies.
Just imagine the following to be a real live movie: