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Took Time Off - Came Back. Big Mistake.


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#21 Lupis Volk

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 03:55 AM

View PostDakota1000, on 09 January 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:


Especially when they say this new system is worse on new players. New players in the old system had to buy 3 separate mechs, Basic them all, elite two of them, then master one of them, then they had to buy seismic sensor and radar deprivation then two weapon modules of their choice. For old time players the cost was actually lowered due to module swapping as your inventory grew, but it was extra harsh on new players.

Compared to this nice streamlined new system where you buy a single mech then skill it up and that's it.




Took about the same time under the old system to swap your modules to represent your new weapon types, though costed as much as filling out an entire skill tree. You can also just set your skill tree up with non specific weapon skills so that you can run the same tree for every single loadout in the entire game without ever changing it again.

Yes i should know, i joined when MWO came to steam, never really did have a large mod library.

#22 Burke IV

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 03:59 AM

So if you can run one tree for every single mech why is it even there? It seems that it serves no purpose other than to scare players away if you can do that with it.

The nerfed my LRMs so i go to the lab and think ok ill run lasers (only one weapon type tho, thats life under the tree) so i spend my 20 mins out of game, get my build, my tree and finally im ready to go... and the build doesnt perform in game. The limits of my interest are already tested by this point, time is going by and im spending it with the tree not in game. The thought of having to look at that tree prevents me logging in and as a paying customer i am considerably annoyed by PGI over this

#23 Lupis Volk

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:01 AM

View PostBurke IV, on 09 January 2018 - 03:59 AM, said:

So if you can run one tree for every single mech why is it even there? It seems that it serves no purpose other than to scare players away if you can do that with it.

The same can and was said about the "precious" old system with the rule of three and the costly mod system.

#24 Bud Crue

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:09 AM

The above posts...hmm.

No I am not saying the old system was great or anything...it wasn't. But the grind of the new system is indeed worse in some ways. For example, in the old system yes, you had to do 3 mechs, 2 elite, 1 to master and then cbills for modules. Certainly. This is true. But the old system gave you performance multipliers at elite-ing which gave you perceptible performance improvements that you will never have under the skills tree minuscule nodes. Also under the old system you got everything, always, but for the modules and as for the modules there were only a few that mattered anyway. In the current system you MUST spend a lot of points to get what you want and what you want will provide in most cases less of a percentage increase to a given performance criteria than in the old system. Also in the old system once a mech was mastered or elited -ALL- copies of that mech, no matter how many duplicates you purchased were also mastered. Under the new system. nope; you must relevel every copy or spend significant cbills and xp to reconfigure a given mech to change the load out. Under the old system that expense did not exist.

Finally as to the grind, I think many of you are looking at the new system through tinted lenses that are colored by all your refund GSP and HSP. Under the old system one good match and you could go from elite to mastery in 1-2 good matches.

Posted Image

Under the new system, you might get at most 8-9 skill points worth of xp in the equivalent match.

Posted Image

A third of mastery to less than a 10th. That is NOT a better grind even accounting for the elimination of the rule of three.

#25 Dago Red

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:20 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 09 January 2018 - 04:09 AM, said:

The above posts...hmm.

No I am not saying the old system was great or anything...it wasn't. But the grind of the new system is indeed worse in some ways. For example, in the old system yes, you had to do 3 mechs, 2 elite, 1 to master and then cbills for modules. Certainly. This is true. But the old system gave you performance multipliers at elite-ing which gave you perceptible performance improvements that you will never have under the skills tree minuscule nodes. Also under the old system you got everything, always, but for the modules and as for the modules there were only a few that mattered anyway. In the current system you MUST spend a lot of points to get what you want and what you want will provide in most cases less of a percentage increase to a given performance criteria than in the old system. Also in the old system once a mech was mastered or elited -ALL- copies of that mech, no matter how many duplicates you purchased were also mastered. Under the new system. nope; you must relevel every copy or spend significant cbills and xp to reconfigure a given mech to change the load out. Under the old system that expense did not exist.

Finally as to the grind, I think many of you are looking at the new system through tinted lenses that are colored by all your refund GSP and HSP. Under the old system one good match and you could go from elite to mastery in 1-2 good matches.

Posted Image

Under the new system, you might get at most 8-9 skill points worth of xp in the equivalent match.

Posted Image

A third of mastery to less than a 10th. That is NOT a better grind even accounting for the elimination of the rule of three.


Aside from the whole releveling dupe copies thing which is legit kind of terrible in the new system it's really looks like the biggest stumbling block is them kneecapping XP gains more than the skill tree itself.

I must not have been in a grind phase when that happened so I didn't notice it but based off those screen shots it's a truly brutal decrease.

#26 justcallme A S H

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:21 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 09 January 2018 - 04:09 AM, said:

Finally as to the grind, I think many of you are looking at the new system through tinted lenses that are colored by all your refund GSP and HSP. Under the old system one good match and you could go from elite to mastery in 1-2 good matches.


Nail on the head right there mate.

I could basic a mech in 2 games almost every time. Granted I'm above average so make it 5 games for a average player.

I am lucky to get more than 1 skill point, per game, at my level of play. So I've gotta play some 100 matches to spec out a mech (assuming I have some btr matches, and worse). Where I could have a mech mastered in under 20 matches previously.

No grind they say?

View PostLupis Volk, on 09 January 2018 - 03:42 AM, said:

Quite frankly it always pisses me off when people spout that the old system was better while omitting the rule of three.


What I said was...

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 09 January 2018 - 01:13 AM, said:

Except for the fact it takes about 1.5x longer to skill a single mech...


I was never omitting the rule of 3 at all. I was acknowledging the different between them. There have people that have done the math - it's longer per mech. 2 mechs it's the same as 3 (used to be). 3 or more? You're in for the grind of your life.

The cbill for module argument isn't really valid as you could move modules - #cheapskate - anyone???

Now if you un-equip a node, you gotta spend XP to get it back? Come on...
Added to that the last laser/SRM pass, it's not only a case of changing mech loadouts. It is also a adjustment to skill tree. Just from that one patch I had to go back and alter some 40 odd mechs because IS LPL was killed, cSPL was killed, SRMs needed spread nodes as mandatory etc etc.

None of this happened under the old system. You changed a loadout and you were done. Not sitting there working out where to pinch a dozen nodes from on 40 different mechs to get the most out of them.

I'm not against Skill Tree. I'm just against the Skill Maze as it's implemented right now for reasons outlined earlier.

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 09 January 2018 - 01:13 AM, said:

Plus with such small increments you don't really notice a mech "improving" or "feeling" better.

is a longer grind and feels less rewarding.


#27 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:22 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 09 January 2018 - 04:09 AM, said:

The above posts...hmm.

No I am not saying the old system was great or anything...it wasn't. But the grind of the new system is indeed worse in some ways. For example, in the old system yes, you had to do 3 mechs, 2 elite, 1 to master and then cbills for modules. Certainly. This is true. But the old system gave you performance multipliers at elite-ing which gave you perceptible performance improvements that you will never have under the skills tree minuscule nodes. Also under the old system you got everything, always, but for the modules and as for the modules there were only a few that mattered anyway. In the current system you MUST spend a lot of points to get what you want and what you want will provide in most cases less of a percentage increase to a given performance criteria than in the old system. Also in the old system once a mech was mastered or elited -ALL- copies of that mech, no matter how many duplicates you purchased were also mastered. Under the new system. nope; you must relevel every copy or spend significant cbills and xp to reconfigure a given mech to change the load out. Under the old system that expense did not exist.

Finally as to the grind, I think many of you are looking at the new system through tinted lenses that are colored by all your refund GSP and HSP. Under the old system one good match and you could go from elite to mastery in 1-2 good matches.

Posted Image

Under the new system, you might get at most 8-9 skill points worth of xp in the equivalent match.

Posted Image

A third of mastery to less than a 10th. That is NOT a better grind even accounting for the elimination of the rule of three.


One super good match would get maybe 3 quarters way through any one section, so you'd need 4 great matches to max out one mech fully. You'd need to also do at least 2 great matches on two other mechs then two more on one of them to elite it to get mastery on the main one. This ends in 10 matches total if you're the guy pulling out 15000-20000 XP a match.

In new skill tree it takes 800 xp per node. Takes about 4 matches to max it out if you're getting around 18000 XP a match.

Edited by Dakota1000, 09 January 2018 - 04:23 AM.


#28 Admiral-Dan

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:22 AM

The rule of 3 / skill tree is a typical PGI solution. Instead of fixing a bad system they replaced it with another bad system.

#29 Bud Crue

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:25 AM

View PostDago Red, on 09 January 2018 - 04:20 AM, said:

Aside from the whole releveling dupe copies thing which is legit kind of terrible in the new system it's really looks like the biggest stumbling block is them kneecapping XP gains more than the skill tree itself.

I must not have been in a grind phase when that happened so I didn't notice it but based off those screen shots it's a truly brutal decrease.


Yes. Like Ash said, even for skilled players you are likely looking at 1 xp worth of nodes per match...worse if you are a new player. Under the old system, leveling , even 3 mechs, was frankly a hell of a lot easier than one mech under the current points schema.

View PostDakota1000, on 09 January 2018 - 04:22 AM, said:


One super good match would get maybe 3 quarters way through any one section, so you'd need 4 great matches to max out one mech fully. You'd need to also do at least 2 great matches on two other mechs then two more on one of them to elite it to get mastery on the main one. This ends in 10 matches total if you're the guy pulling out 15000-20000 XP a match.

In new skill tree it takes 800 xp per node. Takes about 4 matches to max it out if you're getting around 18000 XP a match.


You will never get 18K worth of xp in the current schema (edit: in a good QP match) though. THAT is the point.

Edited by Bud Crue, 09 January 2018 - 04:27 AM.


#30 Phoolan Devi

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:27 AM

View PostMrMadguy, on 09 January 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:

You know... I guess, longer grind for new accounts -


There is no longer grind for new players.....quite the opposite!

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 09 January 2018 - 01:13 AM, said:


Except for the fact it takes about 1.5x longer to skill a single mech...

End of the day as a new player, Skill Maze, is a longer grind and feels less rewarding. Two things that have literally causes a solid percentage of players to quit. Like it or not, it was bad for MWO.

End of the day you are wrong! The old system, even w/out the rule of three, was way more grindy for new players than the new skill tree. On top of that the new system is way more comprehensible and organized than the old one!


View PostAsym, on 09 January 2018 - 03:27 AM, said:

The grind is even worse with the new skill tree ! I experienced both as a new player ! I prefer the former system and if PGI would have been smarter. they would have removed the three mech requirement and gone with one and called it a day, saved the cost for a new map for heavens sake....

OP don't quit just yet......hold off for Solaris and MW5 because "something will happen to PGI" and it might not be what you fear: more of the same old-same old excuses.... Who knows?


I don't know what you did wrong, but it must've been massive if you think you had to grind less as a new player under the old system!

#31 Burke IV

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:28 AM

Forcing people to focus buff one weapon type or loading armour quirks... its just sooo bad. It covers for bad reg and other anomalys. My issues are not just with the tree but the whole flavour of the game has changed aswell. One mech, one atlas, should move and shoot exactly the same as every other atlas. That is a trial of skill. How you gonna feel in solaris when you lose, not because your skill was less but because your tree was filled in wrong?

#32 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:29 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 09 January 2018 - 04:25 AM, said:

You will never get 18K worth of xp in the current schema (edit: in a good QP match) though. THAT is the point.


The XP gained per match hasn't changed (at least not in any major way) compared to the old system though. You still have the ability to earn just as much XP as before.

#33 Kin3ticX

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:30 AM

This game lets you cherry pick the mech you want without going through some tier 1-10 pathway like in world of tanks. I assume thats why each indivual mech grind is a bit more now and why they added double strikes and double coolshots.

They gotta run people through a player --> payer system one way or another to stay in business.

#34 Dago Red

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:31 AM

View PostPhoolan Devi, on 09 January 2018 - 04:27 AM, said:

There is no longer grind for new players.....quite the opposite!


End of the day you are wrong! The old system, even w/out the rule of three, was way more grindy for new players than the new skill tree. On top of that the new system is way more comprehensible and organized than the old one!




I don't know what you did wrong, but it must've been massive if you think you had to grind less as a new player under the old system!



The only one you're Phoolan is yourself

#35 Phoolan Devi

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:36 AM

View PostBurke IV, on 09 January 2018 - 03:49 AM, said:

Its much worse than just a grind wall, try changing your loadout. Minimum 15 to 20 mins before you can get back in game and thats your new untested build. What kind of madness was it to introduce that to a game where customing your loadout is half the fun.



I don't know what you do when you change a loadout, but it usually doesn't take more than 5min at maximum when you finally decided on one!

....and thinking about a new loadout takes the main amount of time and this didn't change with skill tree!

#36 Bud Crue

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:40 AM

View PostDakota1000, on 09 January 2018 - 04:29 AM, said:


The XP gained per match hasn't changed (at least not in any major way) compared to the old system though. You still have the ability to earn just as much XP as before.



I'll take your word for it, but then something else is going on then. "Back in the day" a 15K match was pretty easy. I haven't had one since skill tree. At best I am getting around 7K and average around 1.5-2.5K per match now a days. Something changed.

#37 Phoolan Devi

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:41 AM

View PostDago Red, on 09 January 2018 - 04:31 AM, said:



The only one you're Phoolan is yourself


Nope! It's fact!

#38 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:44 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 09 January 2018 - 04:40 AM, said:



I'll take your word for it, but then something else is going on then. "Back in the day" a 15K match was pretty easy. I haven't had one since skill tree. At best I am getting around 7K and average around 1.5-2.5K per match now a days. Something changed.


The only times I remember 15k and 20k XP matches would be during x5 xp bonus events we had at one point or x2 matches where I managed something like 6 kills and over 1k damage. Can still make easy 10k+ a match in faction play invasion mode though, especially on wins where you didn't use every mech.

#39 Phoolan Devi

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:47 AM

View PostBurke IV, on 09 January 2018 - 04:28 AM, said:

Forcing people to focus buff one weapon type or loading armour quirks... its just sooo bad. It covers for bad reg and other anomalys. My issues are not just with the tree but the whole flavour of the game has changed aswell. One mech, one atlas, should move and shoot exactly the same as every other atlas. That is a trial of skill. How you gonna feel in solaris when you lose, not because your skill was less but because your tree was filled in wrong?


I also, just like you, would be fine with no skill tree at all!

But, since we do have skills, the new system is way better than the old!

#40 TWIAFU

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:47 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 08 January 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

I prefer this skill tree over the old 3 for 1 system.


After being gone for almost two years he gave it all a "fair" test, did his research on what changed, asked questions of his fellow players, found out how to convert Gxp, Mxp, Hxp, and finally dove into everything that is Civil War and made a total and complete informed decision.

LOL.

I guess taking more then 30 minutes to familiarize yourself with something after two years is a bit much for some.

No loss.





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