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Took Time Off - Came Back. Big Mistake.


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#41 Phoolan Devi

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:53 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 09 January 2018 - 04:21 AM, said:



The cbill for module argument isn't really valid as you could move modules - #cheapskate - anyone???




.....the c-bill argument isn't, but the gxp argument! Not having to use 15,000 gxp to get a radar derp module unlocked is way better for NEW players now. The same goes for all the other modules, eapecially the weapon modules. Now you just spend a node on range, cooldown or heat and ALL weapons profit from that single node. Before, you had to get a module for every single weapon at a cost of 4,500gxp each.

It's simple math! New players have way less grind now than before.

Given, this advantage gets smaller and smaller the longer you play.

#42 Burke IV

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:56 AM

The old grind was terrible, but it went away after a while and you could forget it even existed and get on with playing

#43 justcallme A S H

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:00 AM

View PostPhoolan Devi, on 09 January 2018 - 04:53 AM, said:

.....the c-bill argument isn't, but the gxp argument! Not having to use 15,000 gxp to get a radar derp module unlocked is way better for NEW players now. The same goes for all the other modules, eapecially the weapon modules. Now you just spend a node on range, cooldown or heat and ALL weapons profit from that single node. Before, you had to get a module for every single weapon at a cost of 4,500gxp each.

It's simple math! New players have way less grind now than before.

Given, this advantage gets smaller and smaller the longer you play.


You are assuming you would unlock all the modules though with GXP. I didn't... I only unlocked about half because half were, useless. But I had a choice then... I used the GXP to Basic/Elite mechs all the time rather than unlock useless weapon upgrades that served no purpose.

However now under Skill Maze around 20-30% of the nodes on every mech, I'm now forced to unlock, I neither need nor do I want them. So much for giving the player "the choice to fully customise their mech how they want" - the catchcry from PGI at the time.

The advantage was in the old system - longer you play, less you need to worry about. Now it doesn't matter if you have played for a month or 2 years. You have to unlock 120 odd nodes every, single, bloody time... I did it for a week and gave up on an Alt - I literally gave up. 1 point per match? Get stuffed... 100+ matches just to skill a mech vs about 30 = that's a grinding.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 09 January 2018 - 05:01 AM.


#44 El Bandito

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:01 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 09 January 2018 - 01:13 AM, said:

Except for the fact it takes about 1.5x longer to skill a single mech...


Better to skill a single mech that you want 1.5 times longer, than skilling 3 different mechs, some you don't even want. Especially Clan omnis, since you can just swap pods.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 January 2018 - 05:02 AM.


#45 Dago Red

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:02 AM

One of the biggest issues with perception on this I think is that the old grind was more front loaded. Realistically once you had your mech elited it felt fundamentally complete especially if you had modules to swap into it already unlocked and ready on another mech. Despite the fact mastering all three variants was a decent few games more past that.

With the new system the gradual percentile increases are so slight that even when you're 50% done skilling it doesn't feel all that great. That can be mitigated somewhat by prioritizing the nodes that are felt the most such as speed tweak and ammo increases but it definitely still feels like a slog.

#46 justcallme A S H

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:05 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 09 January 2018 - 05:01 AM, said:


Better to skill a single mech that you want 1.5 times longer, than skilling 3 different mechs, some you don't even want. Especially Clan omnis, since you can just swap pods.


Swap pods, swap loadouts - now go back and reskill mechs - spend XP to renable, cbills to unlock nodes etc etc. Awesome, more time in the mechlab.

Given I have a large number of mechs that I had 3-6 chassis of... I'm glad I did it all under the old system and not the new one. So glad.

Now I don't dare buy a mech that might be a bit of fun variant vs the variant that is META because it's a waste of time to sink into it. And that's the difference right there for me.

#47 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:11 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 09 January 2018 - 05:00 AM, said:


You are assuming you would unlock all the modules though with GXP. I didn't... I only unlocked about half because half were, useless. But I had a choice then... I used the GXP to Basic/Elite mechs all the time rather than unlock useless weapon upgrades that served no purpose.

However now under Skill Maze around 20-30% of the nodes on every mech, I'm now forced to unlock, I neither need nor do I want them. So much for giving the player "the choice to fully customise their mech how they want" - the catchcry from PGI at the time.

The advantage was in the old system - longer you play, less you need to worry about. Now it doesn't matter if you have played for a month or 2 years. You have to unlock 120 odd nodes every, single, bloody time... I did it for a week and gave up on an Alt - I literally gave up. 1 point per match? Get stuffed... 100+ matches just to skill a mech vs about 30 = that's a grinding.


How were you, of all people, only managing to get a single point per match? 4K xp is easy enough and gives 5 at once.

Besides that, the old grind of getting 15k XP just for seismic sensor back in the day with GXP being only 5% of XP, means you needed to 300000 XP for JUST ONE MODULE. In comparison 91 skill tree nodes is 72800 XP. You could buy every single node in the entire tree for a mech and you'd still have spent less XP than it took to get just one single module under the old system.

#48 Bud Crue

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:14 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 09 January 2018 - 05:05 AM, said:


Swap pods, swap loadouts - now go back and reskill mechs - spend XP to renable, cbills to unlock nodes etc etc. Awesome, more time in the mechlab.

Given I have a large number of mechs that I had 3-6 chassis of... I'm glad I did it all under the old system and not the new one. So glad.

Now I don't dare buy a mech that might be a bit of fun variant vs the variant that is META because it's a waste of time to sink into it. And that's the difference right there for me.


My play time is extremely limited, and frankly I play this game (any game) to have fun and while I don't mind the grind for the most part, playing skilled mechs increases my chances of winning and having more fun. So screw it. I'm not going to do it or at least not going to do it if I don't have to, and I don't. Which means I am not buying mechs. I'm not alone in this. And as more run out of GSP and truly experience the joys of the "new and improved oh its way better than the old way at 1 node per match" grind I think more and more will be in the same boat. Its the boat the NPE is already in. Fun.

#49 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:20 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 09 January 2018 - 05:14 AM, said:


My play time is extremely limited, and frankly I play this game (any game) to have fun and while I don't mind the grind for the most part, playing skilled mechs increases my chances of winning and having more fun. So screw it. I'm not going to do it or at least not going to do it if I don't have to, and I don't. Which means I am not buying mechs. I'm not alone in this. And as more run out of GSP and truly experience the joys of the "new and improved oh its way better than the old way at 1 node per match" grind I think more and more will be in the same boat. Its the boat the NPE is already in. Fun.


I'll be mirror you in this situation. I used to not buy new mechs because I'd have to buy that mech and 2 variants I didn't want, filling up my mechbays with junk, then I'd have to waste time playing in two mechs I didn't want to use so I could max out the one I liked. Now that the skill tree has come out I've purchased so many new mechs that I ran through the GSP in the first month and I'm still looking to pick up another hellbringer or ebon jaguar for my extended range dropdecks, an ice ferret P for ecm, an archer in preparation for solaris, and a few other mechs as they come out. Might even spring for an Annihilator if I get a team online and we manage to get a 12 man team running in with 12 Annihilators all armed with like 6 UAC2s or 5 UAC5s or something like that.

#50 El Bandito

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:22 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 09 January 2018 - 05:05 AM, said:

Swap pods, swap loadouts - now go back and reskill mechs - spend XP to renable, cbills to unlock nodes etc etc. Awesome, more time in the mechlab.


Still better experience for any newcomers. And no bloody modules. Hated those things, and swapping those things were even more tedious than doing current skill tree.

#51 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:27 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 09 January 2018 - 05:22 AM, said:


Still better experience for any newcomers. And no bloody modules. Hated those things, and swapping those things were even more tedious than doing current skill tree.


Having to check through 100 different mechs to see which one had that darn MPL cooldown module and going through the 5-20 second loading time EACH sure was fun.

I honestly just dropped without modules half the time under the old system because I hated swapping those things around or just didn't have the cbills to get the modules for whatever weapon type I was using on a certain mech. Especially in faction play where I needed a whole dropdeck full of modules. I didn't have 80 million cbills sitting around.

#52 Daurock

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 06:09 AM

Around the Civil war patch I found myself in a somewhat similar position to the OP - I'd played a little on and off in the past, and was coming back to see what's new.

However, unlike the OP, I found the new skill tree to be a HUGE improvement over the old system. The reason was simple - C-Bills. They always were, and still are today the primary thing I don't have. Under the old system, I had to buy 3 mechs in order to kit out 1. Yes, It's still expensive to kit out 1 mech, but no longer do i have to buy 3 mechs to use the only one I actually want to play. (And no, i never felt the need to keep multiple copies of a single mech in my garage - not enough garage slots to do it anyway, and too many chassis to play to limit myself that way.)

As it is right now, i probably have 5 or so mechs left to skill out, and have plenty of XP to get it done. What I don't have is the C-Bills to do so. In other words, EXP isn't the limiting factor here, so people lamenting the lack of exp aren't seeing the same problem I am. (And before people ask, no I don't spam strikes, I'm too broke to do so.)

#53 Mechteric

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 06:15 AM

We all gripe about the skill tree at one time or another, but you get over it, used to it, and carry on meching.



If only they'd reduce from 91 to about half that, say 50 (and adjust each the trees accordingly, doubling the value of each increase), it wouldn't be near as bad. Who knows if they'll ever go to such lengths, but apathy is the only thing carrying me now.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 09 January 2018 - 06:16 AM.


#54 sub2000

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 06:31 AM

View PostMrMadguy, on 09 January 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:

You know... I guess, longer grind for new accounts - is PGI's way to prevent Tier 1 guys from constantly creating alt accounts to stomp lower tier guys. Plus it brings better immersion and customization. I personally don't care, cuz I have ~2K HSP and probably will never need to grind them again. This is better, than mandatory exp grind on every new 'Mech, that makes it completely gimped. Only bad thing - "Skill template" feature is really needed. Cuz clicking all this skills on 70+ 'Mechs... It was really hard and had taken several weeks, if not months. But I've done it and will never need to do it again. So, again, I no longer care about it.


I recovered mine first account (first buy was Raven 3L...) and made it f2p. it has now 20+mechbays and plenty of mechs (2 with 30% bonus). PGI makes a lot of discounts, there were very generous Cbill events. PGI giveaways MC like not other games does with the ingame currency.
What we need is indeed Skill templates and of course normal tutorials, which are available but not directly supported within the game and even on this site. Skill tree could be less cumbersome but well "Programming is hard"

MWO has some very serious problems but P2W is definitely not one of them.

#55 Sigmar Sich

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 06:34 AM

I would honestly prefer skill tree to be not like branches, but like tiers. Invest enough points into tier1 of Firepower, you can now invest into tier2 points of this tree. Or you could fill remaining skills in tier1. And so on. At least it would be easier to read.
Sort of like Old Republic was pre expansions.
Spoiler


#56 KodiakGW

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 06:37 AM

Clearly, another satisfied customer.

Edit: And so many defending it by saying no more rule of three and swapping modules. Clearly, it seems the #cheapskates are happy.

Edited by KodiakGW, 09 January 2018 - 09:36 AM.


#57 Novakaine

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 06:59 AM

I wanna play, but I'm too lazy to kick the ball.
Must make public statement to cover the fact.
Sheesh.

#58 Bud Crue

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 07:39 AM

View PostDakota1000, on 09 January 2018 - 05:20 AM, said:


I'll be mirror you in this situation. I used to not buy new mechs because I'd have to buy that mech and 2 variants I didn't want, filling up my mechbays with junk, then I'd have to waste time playing in two mechs I didn't want to use so I could max out the one I liked. Now that the skill tree has come out I've purchased so many new mechs that I ran through the GSP in the first month and I'm still looking to pick up another hellbringer or ebon jaguar for my extended range dropdecks, an ice ferret P for ecm, an archer in preparation for solaris, and a few other mechs as they come out. Might even spring for an Annihilator if I get a team online and we manage to get a 12 man team running in with 12 Annihilators all armed with like 6 UAC2s or 5 UAC5s or something like that.


This isn’t a mirror, its my same situation, to a point. You are buying single mechs with cbills and so was I (I stopped when I ran out of GXP is our only difference), but I used to be motivated to actually buy new mech packs with real money, because they were sold in three’s and I needed three to master so what the hell, it was 20 bucks. Now though? Why bother spending real $ when I only need 1 get em with cbills or skip em all together and play what I have since after all PGI will break the new mechs along with the old this month or next month or perhaps the month after since a monthly “balance pass” is the new normal.

There is so much more to the grind of the old vs grind of the new system. There is also the reality that in the new system you are never done because every month PGI changes something to force you into tweeting your nodes if you want to maximize your potential. That impacts the cbill sink and vice versa. That in turn is affected by and affects the perception of the grind as only 1-2 nodes are being applied at a time. That in turn affects the manner and types of mechs we buy as PGI keeps nerfing things or just changing things at random. That in turn affects one’s desire to funding of the game or in the case of the NPE playing it. Etc.

As to the debate you and I are having, you seem to feel that the one mech model is great and exciting and it is driving you to buy more mechs and grind them out, but even in your idealized scenario above you are buying those mechs with cbills on an individual basis. That is bad for the game, however good it is for you, as it fails to provide ANY enticement for you to spend real $.
For me, the new grind and the new status quo of breaking at least some of my mechs every month has driven me from the status of a dedicated whale to a why bother buying ANYTHING for cbills or real money. We may have different opinions as to the grind but the result for both of us is less money spent on the game and that is bad for PGI.

#59 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 08:05 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 09 January 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

This isn’t a mirror, its my same situation, to a point. You are buying single mechs with cbills and so was I (I stopped when I ran out of GXP is our only difference), but I used to be motivated to actually buy new mech packs with real money, because they were sold in three’s and I needed three to master so what the hell, it was 20 bucks. Now though? Why bother spending real $ when I only need 1 get em with cbills or skip em all together and play what I have since after all PGI will break the new mechs along with the old this month or next month or perhaps the month after since a monthly “balance pass” is the new normal.

There is so much more to the grind of the old vs grind of the new system. There is also the reality that in the new system you are never done because every month PGI changes something to force you into tweeting your nodes if you want to maximize your potential. That impacts the cbill sink and vice versa. That in turn is affected by and affects the perception of the grind as only 1-2 nodes are being applied at a time. That in turn affects the manner and types of mechs we buy as PGI keeps nerfing things or just changing things at random. That in turn affects one’s desire to funding of the game or in the case of the NPE playing it. Etc.

As to the debate you and I are having, you seem to feel that the one mech model is great and exciting and it is driving you to buy more mechs and grind them out, but even in your idealized scenario above you are buying those mechs with cbills on an individual basis. That is bad for the game, however good it is for you, as it fails to provide ANY enticement for you to spend real $.
For me, the new grind and the new status quo of breaking at least some of my mechs every month has driven me from the status of a dedicated whale to a why bother buying ANYTHING for cbills or real money. We may have different opinions as to the grind but the result for both of us is less money spent on the game and that is bad for PGI.


Even under modules you'd still change weapon modules around whenever PGI nerfed or buffed a weapon, which would cost millions of cbills per module, which added up extremely fast with drop decks in faction play. With the way it is now I likely don't even have to change it at all since the skill tree weapon quirks are more generalized while the module system was for each individual weapon.

As for spending money on mech packs. I would usually only buy mech packs for one or two mechs out of the bunch such as the Kodiak's KDK-3 and Spirit bear, then I'd have to use one of the extras a bit even though I didn't want to, then likely sell the extras afterwards and keep the one or two I wanted. The requirement of 3 mechs actually lead me to buy IS packs and battlemechs in general much less due to the costs of having to fit 3 different mechs and play them compared to an omnimech pack where if I wanted to play one just one way I can at least play the same exact way on each mech and the costs to do so are minimal as I can swap the pods to each.

Now with skill tree out I'm currently planning on buying the Piranha that's coming out, I wanted to get the Hellspawn but decided against it due to life eating up disposable income.

#60 Asym

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 08:25 AM

View PostPhoolan Devi, on 09 January 2018 - 04:27 AM, said:


I don't know what you did wrong, but it must've been massive if you think you had to grind less as a new player under the old system!


I had to redact what I wanted to say..........to answer you... Apologies.

I was a new player, played all of the previous MW games, bought 1 mech series of 6 vehicles (NTG's) and it was taking a while to master them but, the long grind was pretty fun actually. It took at least a 100 matches to start. I had a great performing mech series to break your teeth on. It was fun! (Feb to May 20017).

Fast forward to May. Oh my God.... PGI massively nerf'd the NTG's: they became ANH ponderous and forced right out of the premium heavy mech class into being a pop-tarting/sniping platform only. The new skill tree was then attempted on the mechs I picked up to replace the retired NTG's.... No historic points. No premium time; and, I just finished grinding freaking yesterday as a matter of fact on the last un-mastered mech (I have 20 mechs I purchased or was rewarded with.) That's 7 months of insane grinds; sometimes, as said earlier in the thread, well over 100 games per vehicle. We are not all Elite players with large teams to "farm" with you !!! Some of us, did it on our own and, to be honest, a complete un-recommendable misery. The CW patched in and the team I am on gave up MWO as the "first game" and it got a lot worse. You do understand that: gave up MWO as their "go to" game.....

We lose new players every month and, as I have said before many times, I work at a large University with a "Gaming Union" where gamers of all types meet to play, demo new or old games, recruit and hang out (VG corporation reps often visit since we have a Sim programming degree program to recruit). Hundreds of players and I've demo'd MWO to large groups to include, since it is required if you are demo'ing a new game, the learning curves.hacks and the grind facts.... 0 new recruits for MWO, zero....... I was hoping to start a school team; and, we actually have, in a outer-space game.....any questions as to why???

I'm glad it is easy for you and a lot of better players ! I really am.... It's just a shame that we can't expand the player base because the game is anti-new player; and, if you doubt that, read the warning to FP.......it doesn't get any dumber than that and, to make it worse, take a new player out as a team and have the entire team get devastatingly farmed, massacred three or four drops in a row... Good luck with that recruiting tool....

Edited by Asym, 09 January 2018 - 08:32 AM.






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