142 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 12 January 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

The game and engine can 100% handle IS Omnis the same way it handles Clan Omnis (just with IS tech swapped in).

One of the big issues is that many IS Omnis are very, very bad because of the restricted customization rules and they can't use superior tech as a crutch to prop themselves up like mediocre Clan Omnis can.

However, I don't think meta weakness is the reason for PGI's deliberate avoidance of IS Omnis for so long (because that has never stopped them before). I feel like some other factor is at play here, maybe just PGI's hesitation to do anything that they might consider to be "too drastic of a paradigm shift" or something. I dunno.

Issue being, PGI doesn't want to give GodQuirks anymore, which most Spheroid Omnis would need
They also don't want to balance Spheroid VS Clam tech, for reasons beyond our understanding


What a dilemma.

[Nema Nabojiv]

MechaBattler, on 12 January 2018 - 04:27 PM, said:

How hard would it be for them to just give all IS Omni blanket structure and armor on the side torsos? Just as a matter of course. Separate from normal quirk considerations. If they can give the Vindicator a half way chance. They can give IS Ominis a half way chance. Besides if they wanna juice them up, they just need to keep releasing new variants, power creep them up thanks to hard point inflation.

They can also make IS XL to survive torso loss with some reasonable penalty and call it a day.

[Escef]

Metus regem, on 12 January 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Mostly that happens in gen 2, 2.5 and gen 3 IS omnis... gen 1 is mostly just bad though, with a few decent to ok. Interestingly enough is that the IS mostly abandoned Omni tech....

Take a glance at the number of worlds controlled by the clans in their home territory. In canon, Clan Jade Falcon as of 3062 controls 9 planets in the clan homeworlds, and House Liao just after the 4th Succession War, their lowest point, had more than 10 times that number. Omnis made a lot of sense for the clans, as they tend to be resource starved compared to the Inner Sphere. The mech that was sniping from a hilltop yesterday can be reconfigured overnight into an urban brawler. The Inner Sphere, with more resources to throw into combat, would instead hold their long range assets back and send in a specialist unit. (The late Succession War period was a bit weird, as the loss of technological expertise and manufacturing made repairing or replacing mechs more difficult. The most popular mechs tended to be generalists, and most of the specialists that survived tended to be in support roles.)

On top of this, Inner Sphere powers tend to be penny wise and pound foolish. Omnis cost a LOT more per mech than standard Battlemechs, so the individual unit costs tend to make Inner Sphere powers leery. Yet they ignore the costs of having to purchase specialist mech after specialist mech when they could easily replace 2 or 3 specialists with a single Omni. (Interestingly, the Word of Blake's Omnis were usually reserved for their elite Shadow Divisions, which tended to be frequently reassigned and needed to remain flexible even with limited supply lines. An elite unit that needs to be able to fill any role and still travel light is much better off with Omnis than generalists or trying to lug around hoards of extra mechs and associated personnel.)

[Jay Leon Hart]

Nema Nabojiv, on 12 January 2018 - 04:38 PM, said:

They can also make IS XL to survive torso loss with some reasonable penalty and call it a day.

Or go a step further and make make OmniMech XLs work like Clan XLs and BattleMech XLs work like IS XLs. One more advantage for OmniMechs, rolls back some of the Clan BattleMech powercreep.

[FupDup]

Jay Leon Hart, on 12 January 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

Or go a step further and make make OmniMech XLs work like Clan XLs and BattleMech XLs work like IS XLs. One more advantage for OmniMechs, rolls back some of the Clan BattleMech powercreep.

I don't like that idea because:

1. That seems like it will tip the scales too far in favor of well-designed Clan Omnimechs (some of which are already boss like the Hellbringer).

2. That doesn't fix the IS XL issue for IS mechs. Making Clan Battlemechs die faster or pay the STD engine tonnage tax doesn't directly help the IS tech base.

3. For every Clan Battlemech except the Jenner IIC (because it's a light), needing to take a horribly heavy STD engine (because Clams don't have LFE) would be a titanic nerf. While some like the Mad Kitty Mk. 2 may be a little too stronk, this would be far too severe.

Edited by FupDup, 12 January 2018 - 05:03 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Jay Leon Hart, on 12 January 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

One more advantage for OmniMechs, rolls back some of the Clan BattleMech powercreep.

No thanks, we're fine. Being serious, it will just make clan battlemechs suck more than omnis do, and omnis suck hard enough.

Clan omnis need to be able to switch armor/structure, at least unpopular ones. It will help a lot. IS omnis will probably need this even more. And again it comes to rolling back bad decisions made long time ago.

[Metus regem]

Escef, on 12 January 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

Take a glance at the number of worlds controlled by the clans in their home territory. In canon, Clan Jade Falcon as of 3062 controls 9 planets in the clan homeworlds, and House Liao just after the 4th Succession War, their lowest point, had more than 10 times that number. Omnis made a lot of sense for the clans, as they tend to be resource starved compared to the Inner Sphere. The mech that was sniping from a hilltop yesterday can be reconfigured overnight into an urban brawler. The Inner Sphere, with more resources to throw into combat, would instead hold their long range assets back and send in a specialist unit. (The late Succession War period was a bit weird, as the loss of technological expertise and manufacturing made repairing or replacing mechs more difficult. The most popular mechs tended to be generalists, and most of the specialists that survived tended to be in support roles.)

On top of this, Inner Sphere powers tend to be penny wise and pound foolish. Omnis cost a LOT more per mech than standard Battlemechs, so the individual unit costs tend to make Inner Sphere powers leery. Yet they ignore the costs of having to purchase specialist mech after specialist mech when they could easily replace 2 or 3 specialists with a single Omni. (Interestingly, the Word of Blake's Omnis were usually reserved for their elite Shadow Divisions, which tended to be frequently reassigned and needed to remain flexible even with limited supply lines. An elite unit that needs to be able to fill any role and still travel light is much better off with Omnis than generalists or trying to lug around hoards of extra mechs and associated personnel.)

I know all that, just bringing to light the fact that even with the higher up front cost of Ominmechs, the logistical support requirements for almost every aspect of them were lower... it is a shame it was abandoned in the IS, later some real gems show up, like the Gauntlet.

[LT. HARDCASE]

PunisherMark, on 12 January 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

I don't think the Omni's are bad. The Sunder is very good.

Just looking at the weapon configs on paper, yes the Sunder looks pretty damn strong. But then you look at the actual mech model, and you see that the cockpit is halfway down its chest, meaning that people would be taking shots at your fragile XL engine even when you think you're hiding in cover.

TL;DR = The Sunder is a gameplay death trap. Completely DOA.

[FupDup]

Metus regem, on 12 January 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

I know all that, just bringing to light the fact that even with the higher up front cost of Ominmechs, the logistical support requirements for almost every aspect of them were lower... it is a shame it was abandoned in the IS, later some real gems show up, like the Gauntlet.

Even the Gauntlet (Omni Bushwacker) still has deliberate design flaws for some dumb reason...in this case it mounts CASE in the side torso that doesn't have ammo in it. Like, if you're gonna hardwire CASE, can you at least be smart enough to put it in the place where your ammo goes?

[Y E O N N E]

Yes.

PGI, Raptor when?

[Battlemaster56]

I would love to have a few IS Omni's in my stable, doesn't matter which I just like the ones that truly interest me or I can do something fun with.

So roll out these bad boys!

[Metus regem]

FupDup, on 12 January 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

Even the Gauntlet (Omni Bushwacker) still has deliberate design flaws for some dumb reason...in this case it mounts CASE in the side torso that doesn't have ammo in it. Like, if you're gonna hardwire CASE, can you at least be smart enough to put it in the place where your ammo goes?

I honestly think the CASE thing is an error. I mean it's not like that hasn't happened before....

[El Bandito]

Would be fun quirk if IS omnis can mount Clan weapons.

[Willard Phule]

SilentScreamer, on 12 January 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

I would love to see what kind of quirks would have to be offered for players to put an IS XL Engine on a mech if a Clan XL was available instead. Maybe that would make a good poll topic....

As far as the OP, I think the IS omnis may turn up this year, released after MW5, but posibly preorder as soon as spring. There is a reason why candy is next to the checkout at the grocery store.

If it's an an Omni, you can't swap engines anyway. They're hardlocked. Whatever it comes with, you're stuck with.

[Jingseng]

I mean, are you really that hard on for locked slots and set of 8 quirks?

Because that is pretty much all you are getting out of that.

The whole omnipod-swapping-around-some-hardpoints thing is not as big a deal as it sounds in lore/tt.

[Metus regem]

El Bandito, on 13 January 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

Would be fun quirk if IS omnis can mount Clan weapons.

They should be able too with the Romeo configuration. (R-pods)

That's due to the Alt.Config R were developed during operation Bulldog....

Edit:

Fragging autocorrect....

Edited by Metus regem, 13 January 2018 - 10:11 AM.

[panzer1b]

I really dont see this happening simply because of the balance nightmare itd create. PGI would either need to make IS XLs survive on a ST loss, or give said mechs either crazy good ST hitboxes that rarely get hit from the front, or quirk them to the level of megaquirks both defensively and offensively. The latter i just dont see ever happeneing since PGI seems to have gone to the route of so-so quirks at most even on mechs that desprately need alot of quirks to get out of DOA status due to geometry (uzel, thanatos, ect).

Also, i have serious doubts that IS omnis, even with omnipod swapping, would be anywhere near meta. On clan, you can bring a few loadouts that boat stupid amounts of energy since clan weapons are very light and can be spammed en-mass effectively without taking away too many slots from DHS. On IS, even if you had 10-15 energy hardpoints itd be difficult to really take advantage of all of them since the most practical alfa strike (pure energy) a heavy can do is ~50, maybee 60 if you are willing to cook and run a XL). Thats what, at most 8 energy hardpoints (2LPL, 6ML, or 3LL, 5ML). You might be able to do something liek a 6+6 ML boat with an omni, but its worth relative to a clan 12 ERSL boat is fairly low since its still but 60 alfa strike spread out with ghost heat. Problem is, thats 12 slots out the door already for that loadout, and assuming that they go in the arms and torsos (i know lore has it, but no mech in game has leg mounts), means less DHS potential, something thats already limited to ~20-22 maximum depending on build. Since its omni, you cant even swap to SHS trolling builds and bring 50 of them to try and deal with the slot problem IS gets.

Outside of novelity or being cool, i see no good reason to bother with omnis on IS. Clan omnis are already subpar compared to IIc and other battlemechs, provided said mech comes out of the box with workable hardpoint counts, types, and locations. Just look at the mad2c, its the single best clan energy assault since it has good hardpoint count, workable locations (arms are a bit low but they aint terrible). The ONLY reason clan omnis are even good is because clan tech allows them to play around the limitations a bit better then IS, and due to superior weight and slot requirement, a clan omni can be armed with decent firepower despite carrying a engine that might be a bit larger then optimal. Timby prolly the best example, if i could id drop it to a 350, drop ferro for more DHS and bring heavier weapons (and move the slots around so i can stick more stuff in STs and less in arms), but as it is at least you can build something workable out of it since clan tech is so much more efficient. On IS, you are just gonna be super limited even with swappable hardpoint locations, since your slots are locked and unmovable, you cant drop endo or ferro for DHS space, you cant drop the engine for tonnage, or even change the engine to a different type if you want more survivability or speed or whatever. maybee if there is a IS omni that ships with a 100% optimized LFE engine, and good slot placement (all the locked endo slots used in legs, CT , head, where DHS wont fit), but none come to my mind with all those characteristics met.

[Khobai]

PGI needs to make ISXL survive side torso destruction to balance the game anyway

They could also get rid of a lot of the IS structure quirks then that only exist for the sake of ISXL no surviving side torso destruction

[Y E O N N E]

The structure and armor quirks are not there soley for the XL, they are also there because the IS 'Mech has to tank more hits since it has to expose more often to either get closer or deal its damage or both.

[Y E O N N E]

panzer1b, on 13 January 2018 - 07:13 AM, said:

Also, i have serious doubts that IS omnis, even with omnipod swapping, would be anywhere near meta. On clan, you can bring a few loadouts that boat stupid amounts of energy since clan weapons are very light and can be spammed en-mass effectively without taking away too many slots from DHS. On IS, even if you had 10-15 energy hardpoints itd be difficult to really take advantage of all of them since the most practical alfa strike (pure energy) a heavy can do is ~50, maybee 60 if you are willing to cook and run a XL).

Bruh...

Raptor, 12x Small Lasers, no ghost heat, 39 alpha, and since I don't have ferro I have room for DHS. I actually have 1.5 tons left after allocating 12x DHS and 12x SL, but only two slots, so I could upgrade three of those SLs to MedLas for a 45 alpha. Would it be hot? Yes, a little bit. But 45 alpha!

Blackhawk-KU, 12x Medium lasers, 6+6, 60 alpha. I don't need to describe this to you, it's the 12x ERSL Nova with 70 more meters of reach. 18-20 DHS is plenty to cool this nuke boat, though if PGI wants to play fair then it ought to get Medium Laser heat gen reduction quirks just like the NVA-PRIME Set of 8. It has an XL, but the geo is quite good at spreading damage.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 13 January 2018 - 10:28 AM.