142 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Stridercal, on 12 January 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

Fixed XL engine what now?

Clan omnis have fixed XL;s too. Often just the other way around and oversized.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 January 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

Bruh...

Raptor, 12x Small Lasers, no ghost heat, 39 alpha, and since I don't have ferro I have room for DHS. I actually have 1.5 tons left after allocating 12x DHS and 12x SL, but only two slots, so I could upgrade three of those SLs to MedLas for a 45 alpha. Would it be hot? Yes, a little bit. But 45 alpha!

I thought the Raptor was 11 lasers last time I checked, or did I miss a variant in my spreadsheet?

[Tordin]

Stinger554, on 12 January 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

A good portion of them are decent but the owens is an example of a terrible omnimech. Also have to remember locked IS XLs on most.

I want IS omnis. Yeah locked stuff like IS cl engines will be a deathtrsp, especially if the mech have bad gepometry and/ or hitboxes.
I say, instead on agreeing on some of the people want here are around, which is non insta death IS xl engines, I say give IS xl engines double the hitpoints and/ or get 25% less crit chance. Having LOCKED IS xl enignes could get both such compensations, even same for locked standard and light enignes.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Tordin, on 13 January 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

I say, instead on agreeing on some of the people want here are around, which is non insta death IS xl engines, I say give IS xl engines double the hitpoints and/ or get 25% less crit chance.

That's not gonna work. You die when a side torso containing a part of the XL engine gets blown off. It has nothing to do with HP of the engine because there is no HP of the engine and hence no engine crits.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 13 January 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

I thought the Raptor was 11 lasers last time I checked, or did I miss a variant in my spreadsheet?

I'm saying 12 because last time I said 11 you corrected me to 12. You have the chart, hombre.

[FupDup]

Nema Nabojiv, on 13 January 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

That's not gonna work. You die when a side torso containing a part of the XL engine gets blown off. It has nothing to do with HP of the engine because there is no HP of the engine and hence no engine crits.

Actually our engines do have health, but nothing happens when they get critted.

Yeonne Greene, on 13 January 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

I'm saying 12 because last time I said 11 you corrected me to 12. You have the chart, hombre.

I don't recall ever saying 12. I only remember taking credit for the revelation that the Raptor can be a potent laser boat in general.

[Agent1190]

I was just thinking about this the other day: Clans have both Omnis and a healthy stable of Battlemechs, why can't IS have the same?

You would have to tweak some of the long-standing rules in this game and in Battletech to make it work, and that's something this game has never done*:
1. IS Omnis with XL engines need to survive a side torso loss.
2. CASE would be implemented in IS Omnipods, same as clans.
3. Optional rule: All battlemechs running XL engines will die from side torso loss, including clan Battlemechs. Make survivable side torsos an omnimech advantage.

*Italics denotes sarcasm

None of these 5 mechs would break the game as it is today:
Assault: Templar - 30-ish tons of Pod-space, giving it plenty of room for heavier IS weapons (Sarna lists weapons, but not ammo amounts). Mounts DHS and Endosteel, no FF.
Heavy: Blackhawk KU - it's an IS Nova, just 10 tons heavier.
Heavy: Persues - Orion omnimech with 26-ish tons of free pod space and XL300. Slower IS version of the Timberwolf.
Medium: Blackjack - 50 ton medium (slow at 64.8kph) with 21-ish tons free pod space.
Light: Raptor - 25 ton Omni with 10-ish tons free pod space.

Also, lets face it, an IS Omni-pack would bring a small infusion of cash to the devs, which isn't a bad thing.

Edited by Agent1190, 13 January 2018 - 11:02 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

FupDup, on 13 January 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Actually our engines do have health, but nothing happens when they get critted.

Really? Maybe a leftover of something planned but then dropped or an architectural requirement for all components to have hp.

[Spheroid]

The Strider is absolutely able to be added without god quirks. SHS are vastly better than they were originally. You just need to up heat dissipatation to compensate.

1.2 SHS vs 1.95 DHS with a 240 STD.

That is still a large multiplier though. Uber God quirks being generally described as a single stat buffed to 50% or more. I propose that in order to achieve that number the heat dissipation number is combined with a reduction weapon heat generation in the ballpark of 20-25%.

Edited by Spheroid, 13 January 2018 - 11:54 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 13 January 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

I don't recall ever saying 12. I only remember taking credit for the revelation that the Raptor can be a potent laser boat in general.

I have a distinct recollection of this, but it's whatever. 11xE, 12xE, hardly a difference worth caring about. Point is, it's a big volley for an IS Light and not something you can do with a Firestarter since the Firestarter has Ghost. It's basically the IS analogue to a 4x Heavy MedLas or 5x Heavy Small build.

Spheroid, on 13 January 2018 - 11:05 AM, said:

The Strider is absolutely able to be added without god quirks. SHS are vastly better than they were originally. You just need to up heat dissipatation to compensate.

1.2 vs 1.95 with a 240 STD.

That is still a large multiplier though. Uber God quirks being generally described as a single stat buffed to 50% or more. I propose that in order to achieve that number the heat dissipation number is combined with a reduction weapon heat generation in the ballpark of 20-25%.

So...still god-quirks, you just split a single quirk into two half-sized versions being applied to opposite sides of the equation.

Seems pretty disingenuous to me.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Agent1190, on 13 January 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

1. IS Omnis with XL engines need to survive a side torso loss.

Why the hell only omnies would have this privilege? To make people buy more mechpacks making them P2W?

Agent1190, on 13 January 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

3. Optional rule: All battlemechs running XL engines will die from side torso loss, including clan Battlemechs. Make survivable side torsos an omnimech advantage.

Why the hell you want to nerf all the good clan mechs? Because we already bought mechpacks and now we need to buy some more?

Srsly people, try to think how your ideas will be received by the customers before you share them. If pgi makes something like that it will make the game lose half the players and two thirds of mechpacks income.

[Y E O N N E]

I dunno about all the good Clan 'Mechs being BattleMechs. The WHK, SMN, ACH, NVA, HMN, and HBR all have top-rate builds and niches and are all Omnis. The top-rate Clan BattleMechs are the MAD-IIC, MCII, SNV, HBK-IIC, and ON1-IIC. Everything else, Omni or not, falls somewhere below either group.

As for the suggestion that isXL behave like cXL on IS Omnis, not my first choice but...it's not going to be P2W because none of them would be strictly better than what you can do with IS BattleMechs. Sure, you gain the nukeboat capability with the Men Shen, Black Hawk-KU, and Raptor, but like the OG Nova that's not going to put other niches out of a job.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 13 January 2018 - 11:19 AM.

[Spheroid]

@Yeonne: I want the Strider addeded though. It is brutal looking mech. In lore it is described as a tanky beast. The Assassin is vastly overperforming in its weight class.

Either we make it cool running via excessive quirks or strip the durability from the Assassin(which we should anyway). There is absolutely no competiton in the forty ton category.

The entire spectrum of splat from 35-50 needs to be shook up. I am willing to tolerate a hot Strider as long as it is tanky. Because of the excellence of the Assassin there is little or no role for Oxides or the BJ-2 any longer.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 January 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

As for the suggestion that isXL behave like cXL on IS Omnis, not my first choice but...it's not going to be P2W because none of them would be strictly better than what you can do with IS BattleMechs. Sure, you gain the nukeboat capability with the Men Shen, Black Hawk-KU, and Raptor, but like the OG Nova that's not going to put other niches out of a job.

Its an XL mech without the biggest XL downside and you buy it with real money. Of course its P2W.

[Y E O N N E]

Spheroid, on 13 January 2018 - 11:22 AM, said:

@Yeonne: I want the Strider addeded though. It is brutal looking mech. In lore it is described as a tanky beast. The Assassin is vastly overperforming in its weight class.

Either we make it cool running via excessive quirks or strip the durability from the Assassin(which we should anyway). There is absolutely no competiton in the forty ton category.

The entire spectrum of splat from 35-50 needs to be shook up. I am willing to tolerate a hot Strider as long as it is tanky. Because of the excellence of the Assassin there is little or no role for Oxides or the BJ-2 any longer.

Oh I'm not knocking adding the Strider (though Raptor first! > ), I'm just furrowing my brow at the obfuscation over what is, and must be, a god quirk. Like, why bother? Optics schmoptics, just give it what it needs.

BJ-2 might have a point if MRMs were more reliable weapons. Another 10% Missile Velocity and maybe some 5-10% Missile Spread reduction and we're in business.

Assassin should not be stripped. It launched stripped. It was garbage at launch. Stripping the Assassin doesn't do anything except make brawl strats even more difficult to pull off than they are against organized opposition, which reduces variety to a point I don't want to see.

Nema Nabojiv, on 13 January 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

Its an XL mech without the biggest XL downside and you buy it with real money. Of course its P2W.

That gets its face pushed in by other 'Mechs running LFEs and XLs with the biggest downside. And it's not a Hero 'Mech.

So...no it's not.

Though by your same logic, the entire array of Clan 'Mechs is also OP, so again...no.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 January 2018 - 11:29 AM, said:

That gets its face pushed in by other 'Mechs running LFEs and XLs with the biggest downside. And it's not a Hero 'Mech.

So, a long as any new mech can be killed by other mechs, its not p2w or op or anything. Point taken lol.

[Y E O N N E]

Nema Nabojiv, on 13 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

So, a long as any new mech can be killed by other mechs, its not p2w or op or anything. Point taken lol.

Point missed.

Deathstrike is a Hero 'Mech, never available to the free players. It also happens to dominate the mid-range Assault bracket. That's P2W. OP? Debatable, it's no KDK-3 since it's not dominating all range-brackets or changing the gameplay for everything else, but certainly P2W since it is hand-over-fist better than any other similar mid-range trading 'Mech in the game.

IS Omnis eventually become free. Being nuke-boats is the only thing that makes any of them worth considering. Hot nuke boats. Nuke boats aren't OP on the Clan side, why would they be OP on the IS side, with or without the XL death? A nuke boat is easy to push on. A nuke boat has lots of face time. A WHM will still be empirically better for trading, a DRG for dakka, and a CPLT for splat. All without having a fancy buffed XL.

Like I said, buffing the IS Omni XL like this isn't my first choice. I'd actually rather they buffed the durability instead, but I don't care that much. But to say it's OP and P2W? Lul.

[Khobai]

Quote

3. Optional rule: All battlemechs running XL engines will die from side torso loss, including clan Battlemechs. Make survivable side torsos an omnimech advantage.

um no. side torso destruction isnt fun for ISXL. so why would it be fun for CXL?

the best idea is just get rid of side torso destruction for ISXL.

and not just for omnis but for ALL IS mechs.

because it allows for the removal of most of the IS structure quirks which only exist because ISXL sucks

[Agent1190]

Nema Nabojiv, on 13 January 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

Its an XL mech without the biggest XL downside and you buy it with real money. Of course its P2W.

You keep saying Pay to Win, but I don't think you know what it means.

Khobai, on 13 January 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

um no. side torso destruction isnt fun for ISXL. so why would it be fun for CXL?

the best idea is just get rid of side torso destruction for ISXL.

and not just for omnis but for ALL IS mechs.

because it allows for the removal of most of the IS structure quirks which only exist because ISXL sucks

Why can't you balance by introducing a disadvantage to a system?

And yes, I do think some adjustment needs to be made for Clan Battlemechs running XL engines. I have purchased several mechpacks with Clan Battlemechs - and I think they kinda broke the game and accelerated power creep. IS has to decide if they wish to trade firepower for survival. Clan battlemechs don't have that problem, the balancing factors (survival vs firepower) aren't there. If Clan battlemechs had to worry about side torso loss, you'd be a lot more creative with your Kodiak-3 than 4 UAC/LBx 10s or Quad Gauss, and maybe we wouldn't have had it nerfed into the ground (or steroid-quirked IS mechs).

Yes, you want ISXL to survive side torso destruction, and that change in behavior would be welcomed many IS pilots and unwelcome by many clan pilots. I would like to see ClanXL Battlemechs to have the same disadvantage - a change which would be lamented by clan pilots but welcomed by IS pilots. My version maintains the "firepower vs survivability" mechanic in the game. Your way just opens up more power creep.

Edited by Agent1190, 13 January 2018 - 01:42 PM.

[Lykaon]

Stridercal, on 12 January 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

Fixed XL engine what now?

Low cockpit that was oh so popular with the Archer and the Sunder has the same basic cockpit layout.

Fixed engine that to some may be over engined with a 360 XL

Geo is essentially a box on top of a pair of rectangles. So not difficult to isolate torso components to target the vulnerable engine.

It's a death trap.