24 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

https://mwomercs.com...x-localization/

Check the various hitboxes for the cockpit on various heavies and assaults.


Some of them are really small and strange while others are huge

Look at these two cockpit hitboxes for examples.


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Another good example is the Hellbringer, it has a ridiculously large cockpit hitbox.






Only thought of this after getting headshot a couple times in my new ANH and thought, how big is that cockpit and was a bit concerned that they are on the large size and I checked, it is pretty large and easy to aim for.



I understand that headshot deaths are rare even in the Hellbringer but I think that is more because that only 5% of the player base visits the forums and only a fraction of that check the hitboxes and even less memorize where all the cockpits are.

[El Bandito]

Even knowing where the hitboxes are, unless the opponent is standing still, it is still more effective to shoot the CT. Unless you pack Gauss or other big PPFLD weapons.

As for normalizing the cockpit hitboxes... how are you gonna fit Highlander sized hitbox on the tiny window of the Gargles? Wouldn't make sense. Or do you want every mech to have Gargles sized cockpit hitbox?

I do think cockpit hitboxes can be used as a balancing tool in some scenarios. MCII overpowerforming? Increase the cockpit hitbox!

Edited by El Bandito, 11 January 2018 - 06:58 PM.

[Xetelian]

I don't want the GAR to have a HGNIIC cockpit hitbox I want the cockpits to be similar to the Roughneck or Huntsman hitboxes, maybe even smaller though.


I don't think making it easier for things to die in less than 40 or so points of damage is a good way to balance an over performing chassis.

[Revis Volek]

All mechs are different

[Xetelian]

Revis Volek, on 11 January 2018 - 08:13 PM, said:

All mechs are different

But a small square seems to work for many of the chassis and unless the head is extremely limited in size and shape, it will work on most of them.

[Revis Volek]

Xetelian, on 11 January 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

But a small square seems to work for many of the chassis and unless the head is extremely limited in size and shape, it will work on most of them.

But why stop there? Why dont we make all legs the same, and then all STs and then CTs....

[Xetelian]

Revis Volek, on 11 January 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

But why stop there? Why dont we make all legs the same, and then all STs and then CTs....

Sounds like a slippery slope fallacy to me.

[Revis Volek]

Xetelian, on 11 January 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Sounds like a slippery slope fallacy to me.

Sounds like Vanilla Warrior Online to me

[Xetelian]

Revis Volek, on 11 January 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

Sounds like Vanilla Warrior Online to me

A cockpit hitbox that is all relatively the same size would make this game boring to you? You really think that?

Sounds like someone just likes exploiting the relatively larger ones instead of there being a fairness and general balance between them.

[Shifty McSwift]

I agree OP, but I also think the headshot system is just a strange one overall, if you get a headshot by accident on someone with red ct you can "waste" time or energy (heat/ammo/cooldown) in the process, or you can get lucky while aiming for ct and just outright 1 shot mechs that have ridiculous amounts of armor (headshotting an anni, is bypassing like 99% of its armor, making some 15 tons of armor literally valueless.

I would honestly prefer a system that replaced crits with vital locations, for the CT it would still be head, but instead of functioning like an independent hardpoint, hitting the head would simply double (or whatever value) the damage deal to the CT, much like a "critical hit" system, but rather than it being based on RNG percentage based critical hits, it is based on locational damage, and accuracy in shooting (imagine each hardpoint had a vital location like this, say for arms, elbow weak points, for legs their knees etc, having internal hitboxes within all of those hardpoints.

[Nik Reaper]

Shifty McSwift, on 12 January 2018 - 01:13 AM, said:

I agree OP, but I also think the headshot system is just a strange one overall, if you get a headshot by accident on someone with red ct you can "waste" time or energy (heat/ammo/cooldown) in the process, or you can get lucky while aiming for ct and just outright 1 shot mechs that have ridiculous amounts of armor (headshotting an anni, is bypassing like 99% of its armor, making some 15 tons of armor literally valueless.

I would honestly prefer a system that replaced crits with vital locations, for the CT it would still be head, but instead of functioning like an independent hardpoint, hitting the head would simply double (or whatever value) the damage deal to the CT, much like a "critical hit" system, but rather than it being based on RNG percentage based critical hits, it is based on locational damage, and accuracy in shooting (imagine each hardpoint had a vital location like this, say for arms, elbow weak points, for legs their knees etc, having internal hitboxes within all of those hardpoints.

I'd kinda second that , it's not been in BT in that form so far, they had armor ignoring crist as an optional rule, but sounds as a reasonable mechanic for a FPS-like game, even more so then the % based crits as it promotes skill over chance,

Though it still could cause major unbalances due to mech geometry witch is again something many designs in TT didn't account for and Pirana adopted without much change or improvement.

[Shifty McSwift]

Nik Reaper, on 12 January 2018 - 01:27 AM, said:

I'd kinda second that , it's not been in BT in that form so far, they had armor ignoring crist as an optional rule, but sounds as a reasonable mechanic for a FPS-like game, even more so then the % based crits as it promotes skill over chance,

Though it still could cause major unbalances due to mech geometry witch is again something many designs in TT didn't account for and Pirana adopted without much change or improvement.

For sure, and I don't expect the system as it has stood for so long to change, it's just my thoughts toward it overall, I am not a big fan of heavily relying on RNG, as there is enough of it naturally and it is a necessity in many areas, there's no need to double down on it, I always go with the path of minimising it wherever possible.

[Zeoraimer]

Shifty McSwift, on 12 January 2018 - 01:13 AM, said:

I would honestly prefer a system that replaced crits with vital locations, for the CT it would still be head, but instead of functioning like an independent hardpoint, hitting the head would simply double (or whatever value) the damage deal to the CT, much like a "critical hit" system, but rather than it being based on RNG percentage based critical hits, it is based on locational damage, and accuracy in shooting (imagine each hardpoint had a vital location like this, say for arms, elbow weak points, for legs their knees etc, having internal hitboxes within all of those hardpoints.

That would be cool - but I fear that would break game performance. We already have 11 armour sections per player, and 8 internal sections. That 24 x 19 = 456 locations.

The server would probably melt we added 2x knees, 2x elbows and even 1 CT location to all 24 players (120 additional locations).

To add to your idea, it should also be, the longer you can keep your laser beam, or the more AC pellets you continually land, the higher the multiplier. And other effects for different weapon systems.

EG,
- lasers = each 25% of duration adds a cumulative damage multiplier (not exceeding +100% damage).
- Gauss on legs = short temporary seize of the knee actuator, like walking into a pebble on the floor?
- Missile on elbow moves your arm reticle off centre? A critical point on the CT knocks your CT reticle off centre? And/or reticle shake for either sets of critical points?

Edited by Zeoraimer, 12 January 2018 - 05:40 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

What does it even matter? Cockpit hitboxes are already so small that most people don't even attempt to go after them and the people who do usually just try to shut you down first. Cockpits already pick rather arbitrary portions of each head hitbox rather than being all of the glass just to make it even less likely to be hit.

[Mystere]

I think the first order of business is to remove all existing magic force fields protecting the cockpit. Only then should we talk about cockpit sizing.

This is not Harry Potter and the Magic Whatever Whenever However.

Edited by Mystere, 12 January 2018 - 09:31 AM.

[Asym]

Dakota1000, on 12 January 2018 - 05:03 AM, said:

What does it even matter? Cockpit hitboxes are already so small that most people don't even attempt to go after them and the people who do usually just try to shut you down first. Cockpits already pick rather arbitrary portions of each head hitbox rather than being all of the glass just to make it even less likely to be hit.

What you said is true and a real problem if we claim this to be a good FPS.... If the cockpit is the weakest point of a 75 ton mech, the first place you'd shoot at range is that weak point..... PGI has and continues to degrade "precision" and "ranged" engagement because they are despartly trying to make Solaris work.... It can't work if a good twitch shooter can 2xGauss a cockpit 70% of the time on an opening engagement..... TTK needs to be longer and longer to keep players interest......and, that means you can't have extremely lethal weapons or weak areas in the mechs.... A trade off. I haven't seen a classic long range and planned head shot since March of last year. I have, what , three headshots in a year and I was trying for months to get the achievement (and, I am in real life a long range precision shooter so it's not from a lack of skill)..... After May's debacle, no one and I've never seen one since.... We've even see powered down mechs immune to head shots.... Go to the training grounds and intentionally try long range headshots.......

If we really want MWO to work and be exciting, we need to have cockpit hit boxes that are "real-sized and placed with the correct geometry..."

[Troa Barton]

If he can figure it out so can anyone else.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Asym, on 12 January 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

What you said is true and a real problem if we claim this to be a good FPS.... If the cockpit is the weakest point of a 75 ton mech, the first place you'd shoot at range is that weak point..... PGI has and continues to degrade "precision" and "ranged" engagement because they are despartly trying to make Solaris work.... It can't work if a good twitch shooter can 2xGauss a cockpit 70% of the time on an opening engagement..... TTK needs to be longer and longer to keep players interest......and, that means you can't have extremely lethal weapons or weak areas in the mechs.... A trade off. I haven't seen a classic long range and planned head shot since March of last year. I have, what , three headshots in a year and I was trying for months to get the achievement (and, I am in real life a long range precision shooter so it's not from a lack of skill)..... After May's debacle, no one and I've never seen one since.... We've even see powered down mechs immune to head shots.... Go to the training grounds and intentionally try long range headshots.......

If we really want MWO to work and be exciting, we need to have cockpit hit boxes that are "real-sized and placed with the correct geometry..."

I'd like for the cockpits of mechs to actually be cockpit rather than mostly CT, all the glass bits should count as that hitbox rather than just a tiny portion of it. The heads already have so much armor on them that the only pin point frontloaded damage weapons that can oneshot one without ghost heat kicking in is dual heavy gauss rifles. 33 health plus additional health from the skill tree makes them rather durable.

Though most people here are constantly asking for higher and higher TTK I'd much rather have it be lower, like maybe half. Even an Atlas holds less than 20 tons of armor, yet a Dire Wolf holds over 50 tons of weaponry, why that armor doesn't get blasted to pieces in a single shot eludes me.

Never going to change though, so oh well.

[James Argent]

Xetelian, on 11 January 2018 - 06:47 PM, said:

Only thought of this after getting headshot a couple times in my new ANH and thought, how big is that cockpit and was a bit concerned that they are on the large size and I checked, it is pretty large and easy to aim for.

From the front, the cockpit is just about the only thing that exists at that part of the mech. We all knew headshots were going to be easier in the Annihilator from the very start because the head is so isolated from the rest of the mech...if you hit anything there it's a near 50-50 chance to hit the cockpit. It is the responsibility of the person who uses the mech to take this drawback into consideration before jumping into one. There is no 'perfect' mech, nor should there ever be one.

[NRP]

After a lot of experimentation, I am convinced one gets more headshots after 3-4 beers/2-3 glasses of wine/2-4 Mike's hard lemonades.

It doesn't matter if it's a teammate's head either.