17 replies to this topic

[TransitTrucker]

Hi,

I notice on many maps that vertical elements, such as a wall, extend slightly further horizontally than displayed on screen.

So, when trying to peep and shoot you can clearly see your target but your round/laser just hits the invisible extension to the vertical wall around which you are peeking.

The net effect is you have to step further away from the vertical wall and expose yourself to fire. Now, given the mech's head is central, my theory is if you can see your target one of your arms has a clear line of fire to it.

Any comments please? Especially from support dudes and gurus.

[Damnedtroll]

You will see that ppc are prone to be stopped by invisible walls around branch, twigs, grass, rocks, etc. Some portions of mountains are somewhat invisible at range and load up nearer. Maybe some textures effect are also causing this like bump mapping ?

[TransitTrucker]

I am glad it wasn't my imagination. I wonder if it needs reporting as a bug?

I bet it is also exacerbated by screen ratio, resolution and selected width of view. I find it quite annoying if I am playing 'cunning sniper' . . .

[Koniving]

TransitTrucker, on 17 January 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

Hi,

I notice on many maps that vertical elements, such as a wall, extend slightly further horizontally than displayed on screen.

So, when trying to peep and shoot you can clearly see your target but your round/laser just hits the invisible extension to the vertical wall around which you are peeking.

The net effect is you have to step further away from the vertical wall and expose yourself to fire. Now, given the mech's head is central, my theory is if you can see your target one of your arms has a clear line of fire to it.

Any comments please? Especially from support dudes and gurus.

That would make sense, however all weapons converge on whatever the crosshair is on.
If you get your crosshair around that invisible horizontal extension (which is an artifact of the game's Server side hitboxes, as they have simpler geometry like rectangular prisms), then yes at least one side's weapons can get around that.

A good way to experiment with this is to put a TAG into both arms or both side torsos. Tie them together and begin "peeking" around corners.

Bottom view gives a close up or zoom of what is going on.
If you see a red dot from your tag that appears 'close' to you, it is hitting an invisible wall.

Now experiment. That happens with just one side if you're aiming past the invisible wall, but the line from the weapon to where your cockpit says you want to hit is obstructed.

Both will stop dead on the invisible wall if your reticle is pointed at the invisible wall, in which case all weapons will deliberately hit the invisible wall.

Good luck.

It is an issue that PGI tries to minimize, but it is not one that they can fix. It is this, or accept a client authority system where we could potentially cheat to obscene lengths. I'd rather take the minor issues.


Sporting some tags isn't a big deal.

[Gallius]

It's not too bad usually, but yeah, I've definitely noticed it more with my 2xSNPPC Centurion than on my beloved, plain-as-bread AC/20 Hunchback. That has to do with weapon convergence, which Koniving explained a bit of, but here's a more detailed video if you'd like:



It helped me out when I found it. Hope it helps you, too.

[TransitTrucker]

That is really interesting. I think what I am being taught is that convergence will be pointing my weapons towards the vertical wall that I am peeking around.

The tag idea, and tag screen shot above, clearly shows a tag beam striking the invisible extension of the wall and confirms to me what is happening (and the distance that the invisible wall sticks out). That is very useful in itself.

Just to be clear, in the tag screenshot it was my right hand weapon that keeps hitting the invisible wall but I would be hiding far more to the left taking advantage of the visible wall. I can see how misaligned dynamic convergence together with the invisible wall extension would cause the issue.

Not sure that the invisible wall extension isn't a bug though. I haven't seen this before in Farcry (great game). You would notice.

Notice below the distance to the target object under the reticule and compare to the next screenie.
The first one really looks like you are aimed at the baddy but you will hit the invisible edge of the foreground object.


An perceivable movement will result in the real target being found. The trick is to confirm the target with the distance however you can't always afford to do this in the heat of battle.



In my screenies you can see that the invisible portion of "wall" is very large indeed. Moving beyond it would expose you to a lot of fire. I would say sniping in this way is a no-no given the magnitude of the boundary error.

It really is a minor problem and all players suffer the same effect so it evens out.

Many thanks for help.

Edited by TransitTrucker, 18 January 2018 - 04:34 AM.

[TransitTrucker]

That is really interesting. I think what I am being taught is that convergence will be pointing my weapons towards the vertical wall that I am peeking around.

The tag idea, and screen shot above, clearly shows that tag beam striking the invisible extension of the wall and confirms to me what is happening and the distance that the invisible wall sticks out. That is useful in itself.

It really is a minor problem and all players suffer the same effect so it evens out.

Many thanks for help.

[TransitTrucker]

Sorry to be a real pain but I can't post screenshots. Can someone help? NB I have read internet posts and tried for hours now. Dropbox images don't show. Google+ images are in the wrong format. MWO search doesn't work for me so I can't search the FAQ. I am going mad now. . . .

[Koniving]

TransitTrucker, on 18 January 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

The tag idea, and tag screen shot above, clearly shows a tag beam striking the invisible extension of the wall and confirms to me what is happening (and the distance that the invisible wall sticks out). That is very useful in itself.

To note: The "distance" varies with every single object. Some are almost non-existent. Some are exceptionally large (especially if the map is brand new) and it gradually shrinks as PGI tweaks the map later on. The server version of the map has no rendered geometry, its all basically code and dimensions and grid coordinates so they don't really get to see how the auto-generated server map compares to the real one. That's sort of a trial and error and manual tweaking thing. (They explained it in great detail in 2012 if you combine several posts on the subject). The server side divides all polygons used for the map by 8, so any complicated shapes tend to get oversimplified and in the process, somewhat enlarged. Rocky formations are the worst contenders. Buildings just kind grow a tidbit unless obscenely complicated. HPG and Grim are only spared because most of the 3D shapes are not "real". Normal mapping doesn't count toward it.

For screenshots. Host on a webpage. Right click the image. "Copy URL Location."
Click the "picture of a tree" icon when writing a post. Paste the URL. Press OK.
Finish post. Pictures will be there.

[Koniving]

I use Enjin, personally.
For example, this example of convergence.

When crosshair is on the sky.


When aiming at foot.

[Koniving]

Another thing worth noting, this is a problem that affects people trying to shoot around obstacles from up close to them. It will barely if at all affect those shooting at you as you come up from behind the invisible wall.

A good way to get around this is to back up from a wall and give it about 45 to 50 meters distance. This reduces LRM cover but it makes shooting around the invisible walls much easier.

Never engage in a battle against someone that's up on a cliff face from within 200 meters of the cliff face, if it is a sharp ledge. You'll almost never hit them due to a similar issue. They won't have it since they are standing over the invisible wall.

[Koniving]

Side note with lock on weapons you can literally shoot around corners from behind them.

The trick requires your arms to be unlocked, and locking missiles to be mounted on torso slots. Works with ATMs and LRMs.
From behind wall, stand behind corner, out of sight and aim torso toward opening. Using left CTRL + Mouse, aim at an acquired target until lock is achieved. Do not let your torso twist during this or it will not work. Wait 1 second to ensure lock has gone through (if you have high ping). Fire torso mounted LRMs or ATMs. Missiles will go forward first and then turn, circling around the corner.

Edited by Koniving, 18 January 2018 - 08:05 AM.

[Exilyth]

Why do invisible walls exist?

Many objects in games are modelled in high detail (more triangles) for rendering to make them look nice.
Physics simulation on the other hand requires geometry which can be processed in less time (requiring less triangles).

To statisfy the conflicting goals of high physics performance and nicely rendered images, most games use different geometries for objects, e.g. one for rendering and one for collision.

The collision geometry is a version of the object with a heavily reduced triangle count. Such a geometry can be created by hand or by using algorithms (like e.g. "qhull", the details of which I won't bore you with).

The reduction in detail can lead to a disparity between the visible geometry and the collision geometry, e.g. if an L shaped building was approximated using a box, the collision geometry would cause problems with the inside corner - resulting in 'invisible walls'.

Some games try to get around this by modelling the collision geometry with a bit more detail where it matters (e.g. street level) and less detail where players won't reach as often (e.g. the top of a tower which is to high to jump on could be a box).

Reminds me of the games of old: Handrails were often quite detailed, but you couldn't shoot through them because the collision geometry was just a box covering the whole object.

Edited by Exilyth, 31 January 2018 - 02:43 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

TransitTrucker, on 17 January 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

I am glad it wasn't my imagination. I wonder if it needs reporting as a bug?

I bet it is also exacerbated by screen ratio, resolution and selected width of view. I find it quite annoying if I am playing 'cunning sniper' . . .

It happens on many places on many maps...

Honestly there is no point.

Gallius, on 18 January 2018 - 01:33 AM, said:

It's not too bad usually, but yeah, I've definitely noticed it more with my 2xSNPPC Centurion than on my beloved, plain-as-bread AC/20 Hunchback. That has to do with weapon convergence, which Koniving explained a bit of, but here's a more detailed video if you'd like:



It helped me out when I found it. Hope it helps you, too.

Yep watch that video and disregard half of what Koniving said (as usual, giving out bad/incorrect information to new players that need the right info).

Just because the cross-hair is around a corner does not always mean one side will hit far from it. Quite often both sides will hit invisible terrain even if you crosshair has a HUGE gap between a obstacle.

You just have to learn the maps and what areas/features/terrain do it etc. Sometimes you can even shoot through terrain that "appears" but again isn't actually there which again is the case on soooo many maps and soooo many areas, it's never been fixed and never will.

[LennStar]

Look at the range indicator near yoru crosshair.

If you are aiming at a mech far away and it shows 30m, then you are shooting an invisible wall.

I especially hate the invisible snow dunes though. You see an enemy assault, fire your 4 ERPPCs - and they all seem to hit, but it is just a white that hasn't popped up.

[Tier5ForLife]

IMO, it is a lack of Video card power. I have a lot of invisible everything.

[Jonathan8883]

I have my settings turned up to high, and a bunch of far away details still visibly fill in some of the time.
Also - why aren't mech camo patterns visible at a distance. Doesn't make sense.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Going to the training grounds helps you find some of the invisible walls, but who has time to find them all?