51 replies to this topic

[Luminis]

Mole, on 26 January 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

You people act surprised that the Piranha is fragile. It has the same durability of the Locust but lacks the difficult hitboxes of the Locust.

More importantly, it's the same tonnage as the Locust but has the ability to field considerably more firepower than the Locust. Can't expect it to have significantly more firepower, be as fast, as light and as survivable as the LCT.

Edited by Luminis, 26 January 2018 - 08:16 AM.

[Mole]

Luminis, on 26 January 2018 - 08:15 AM, said:

More importantly, it's the same tonnage as the Locust but has the ability to field considerably more firepower than the Locust. Can't expect it to have significantly more firepower, be as fast, as light and as survivable as the LCT.

Well if it were shaped similarly to the Locust then it would have all that. But the Locust is a squat chicken walker with a lot of it's volume being placed horizontally. The way PGI currently calculates how large a 'mech should be is by volume. Since the Piranha is humanoid, it's going to present a larger profile, thus easier to hit while having the same armor and structure values of the Locust. It's really just a matter of the shape of the 'mech that makes it so fragile. Also the Locust might have armor quirks, I can't remember though.

EDIT: Actually, the Locust does have armor quirks. Not much though. You can achieve the same level of armor quirks by putting in the full survival tree with the Piranha though, which I did on my LMG Piranha because when the only heat generating weapons you have are three ERSLs putting points into better heat efficiency is a waste of points. The locust, however, has to worry about heat efficiency and usually cannot afford to go full survival.

Edited by Mole, 26 January 2018 - 08:24 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Mole, on 26 January 2018 - 08:19 AM, said:

Well if it were shaped similarly to the Locust then it would have all that. But the Locust is a squat chicken walker with a lot of it's volume being placed horizontally. The way PGI currently calculates how large a 'mech should be is by volume. Since the Piranha is humanoid, it's going to present a larger profile, thus easier to hit while having the same armor and structure values of the Locust. It's really just a matter of the shape of the 'mech that makes it so fragile. Also the Locust might have armor quirks, I can't remember though.

Yes and no. The humanoid profile is better for rolling damage, and the arms can be used as shields. I've lasted much longer in game by sacrificing an arm or two, not just in the piranha, but in heavier mechs as well.

[Mole]

Snowbluff, on 26 January 2018 - 08:23 AM, said:

Yes and no. The humanoid profile is better for rolling damage, and the arms can be used as shields. I've lasted much longer in game by sacrificing an arm or two, not just in the piranha, but in heavier mechs as well.

Yes but we are talking about a 'mech whose primary weapon is a pile of machine guns. So if they are going to do damage they need like, ALL the facetime. No torso twisting for a Piranha unless it's in the act of running away.

Edited by Mole, 26 January 2018 - 08:26 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Mole, on 26 January 2018 - 08:26 AM, said:

Yes but we are talking about a 'mech whose primary weapon is a pile of machine guns. So if they are going to do damage they need like, ALL the facetime. No torso twisting for a Piranha unless it's in the act of running away.

If you're using machine guns, why are you in front of your enemy?

[Mole]

Snowbluff, on 26 January 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

If you're using machine guns, why are you in front of your enemy?

There's more than one enemy sometimes, man. In which case the Piranha's best course of action is to disengage. I'm not saying I have trouble with survivability in my Piranha because I've been playing light 'mechs since I started this game and with the exception of the slower clan lights such as the Adder, Kit Fox, and Cougar they all mostly play pretty much the same. I have seen many Pirahna pilots charge into the enemy zerg and get practically one-shot and then complain about how fragile it is. The fact of the matter is yes, it IS more fragile than most other lights. It has hitboxes and weapons that do not lend it well to torso twisting and running around like a madman like the Locust does and people keep trying to play it that way and getting wrecked. A locust might be able to get away with taking a pass right through the entire enemy team but it's about the only light that can still do that anymore since the rescale and engine desync. But you really shouldn't be passing through the enemy team as a Locust anyway. You're just going to take a lot of uneccesary damage while not inflicting a lot of damage. If you think of it in terms of a trade, you lose the trade when you do that. Yet people still do it.

Edited by Mole, 26 January 2018 - 08:34 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Torso twisting in a 20 tonner doesn't matter much, neither 'Mech has the hitpoints to spread more than a single good hit.

Play cagey. Wait for something to draw aggro then pounce.

[Snowbluff]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

Torso twisting in a 20 tonner doesn't matter much, neither 'Mech has the hitpoints to spread more than a single good hit.

Play cagey. Wait for something to draw aggro then pounce.

And even if you do, you still might burst like a balloon. XD

And yes, being sneak is most important. I've had much better success sticking to my team and letting them soak the damage from the enemies while you use your mobility to line up good shots,

[stealthraccoon]

10 MG’s on the brittle fish and I’m good - the survival tree helped, A LOT!
Not fond of the electric fishes.

[Y E O N N E]

stealthraccoon, on 26 January 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

10 MG’s on the brittle fish and I’m good - the survival tree helped, A LOT!
Not fond of the electric fishes.

5x cERML with 13 DHS...

Better sustained output than a Locust running 5x or 6x isERML.

[Luminis]

Mole, on 26 January 2018 - 08:19 AM, said:

Well if it were shaped similarly to the Locust then it would have all that. But the Locust is a squat chicken walker with a lot of it's volume being placed horizontally. The way PGI currently calculates how large a 'mech should be is by volume. Since the Piranha is humanoid, it's going to present a larger profile, thus easier to hit while having the same armor and structure values of the Locust. It's really just a matter of the shape of the 'mech that makes it so fragile. Also the Locust might have armor quirks, I can't remember though.

I understand fairly well why the PIR is a fair bit squishier than the LCT, my point is that it is okay for the PIR to be squishier. Seen the point about it being too squishy a couple times, which is why I brought this up.

[Mole]

Luminis, on 26 January 2018 - 09:43 AM, said:

I understand fairly well why the PIR is a fair bit squishier than the LCT, my point is that it is okay for the PIR to be squishier. Seen the point about it being too squishy a couple times, which is why I brought this up.

Really though if you're playing it like a light really ought to be played is being squishy doesn't matter all that much. Pretty much any light 'mech used to be able to just go charging into the enemy team, do some damage, and then escape with impunity. Since the rescale and engine desync, this is no longer the case except for maybe the Locust. Yet I still see people trying to play their lights this way and they get instantly crushed. I can only imagine anyone who complains on the forums about how lights suck is making such a mistake in piloting their lights. Here's how a match in my light 'mechs usually goes these days:

1. Move ahead of your team, scout, feed information on the enemy movements to your team. If target of opportunity is available, take it. If not, harass at range using hit and fade tactics if your weapons are suited to such a role. Always remember that your speed gives you the option to start and end fights as you see fit most of the time. If the conditions of a fight become unfavorable, disengage.

2. Once the two teams have established a front line, return to your team. Even though lights are not as hard to kill as they used to be, they are still a more difficult target than a medium, heavy, or assault. During the fight chances are good that you will be able to inflict heavy damage on the enemy team while being largely ignored because the enemy will be focusing their guns on your assaults and heavies since you are the more difficult target.

3. You may be the last one left. If so, disengage and disappear from the enemy's sensors. If the game was close and not a stomp, you may be able to salvage this. Get sensor readings on all the enemy 'mechs before comitting to an engagement if possible. Identify any weakpoints and exploit them, take a target, and disengage again. Repeat this process until either you are down or the rest of the enemy team is down.


TL;DR: I think people just don't understand how to play a light.

Edited by Mole, 26 January 2018 - 10:04 AM.

[JadePanther]

Mole, on 26 January 2018 - 08:19 AM, said:

Well if it were shaped similarly to the Locust then it would have all that. But the Locust is a squat chicken walker with a lot of it's volume being placed horizontally. The way PGI currently calculates how large a 'mech should be is by volume. Since the Piranha is humanoid, it's going to present a larger profile, thus easier to hit while having the same armor and structure values of the Locust. It's really just a matter of the shape of the 'mech that makes it so fragile. Also the Locust might have armor quirks, I can't remember though.

EDIT: Actually, the Locust does have armor quirks. Not much though. You can achieve the same level of armor quirks by putting in the full survival tree with the Piranha though, which I did on my LMG Piranha because when the only heat generating weapons you have are three ERSLs putting points into better heat efficiency is a waste of points. The locust, however, has to worry about heat efficiency and usually cannot afford to go full survival.

Dont bring the V word in here.. Because thats a whole nother can-o-worm.. Mostly because they didnt apply creative fudge factor to account for the big variable of the equation.. The D word, hint its DENSITY..

the piranha has a larger easier mugged silhouette, and an utter lack of quirks (mostly in part due to large number of hardpoints).. Now the catch 22 is that the overall squishyness is a negative detractor from the large weapon cache that can need smaller engines to properly support. Thusly making it more squishy, and those weapons become less effective when they get removed quicker or you are destroyed outright much faster..

the thing about having to rely on the survival tree is that other mechs with beefier quirks and better hitboxes can do the exact same thing only better due to quirks adding to the factor.. skill tree will not close the gap that another superior quirked mech has, in fact its quite the opposite.. Skill tree just increases a superior quirked mechs advantage as quirk bonuses are usually applied before skill tree bonuses take effect..

all that being said its still a tad early and once things settle down, builds get established, people learn to cope with the cockpit, skill trees are filled, and the fishing madness of having to KILL NEW MECHS subsides, then we can really start to get a gauge on its real potential and place in the way of things.

but there is one thing of apparent right now, and that is the cockpit view is pretty sucky and doesnt seem to have the fit and feel on the inside as it looks on the outside..

[Y E O N N E]

Luminis, on 26 January 2018 - 09:43 AM, said:

I understand fairly well why the PIR is a fair bit squishier than the LCT, my point is that it is okay for the PIR to be squishier. Seen the point about it being too squishy a couple times, which is why I brought this up.

Pragmatically speaking, it's not really any squishier than the Locust. And even with the supposed squishy penalty, the firepower it presents is still an order of magnitude better than what similar Locusts can bring and doesn't really justify the lack of sufficient offensive quirks on the latter.

[CFC Conky]

Hello all,

Just finished the event, (except for the Replacements, don’t own those), the mech is a lot of fun. I’m not a very good light mech driver and now I have a much better understanding on how to operate them. I tend to do better with the energy boats, the sweet spot being twelve er-micros fired in groups of four. Alphas are a big no-no.

I only started playing the fish yesterday and have not seen too many P’s, nor many opposition streak mechs, so I guess the initial feeding frenzy is over. Don’t know how it will perform in fp.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 28 January 2018 - 11:29 AM.

[BenAran]

Well, anything is good if you manage to not die in it to be honest.
At any rate, the Piranha shows a lot of potential for absolutely wrecking people.
Buuuut in my experience, you need to have the skill to pull that off.

[JediPanther]

Mole, on 26 January 2018 - 08:19 AM, said:

Well if it were shaped similarly to the Locust then it would have all that. But the Locust is a squat chicken walker with a lot of it's volume being placed horizontally. ...

EDIT: Actually, the Locust does have armor quirks. Not much though. The locust, however, has to worry about heat efficiency and usually cannot afford to go full survival.

I have seven locusts and like you point out survival marginally helps the locust. With the mandatory external heat sinks of three using an xl 190 you have roughly just seven tons in total for every thing else such as weapons,ammo,bap,ams or lams.The piranha being a clan mech as all the inherit advantages of clan tech. Locusts pilots probably can wreck in the pir just as well as any ach pilot using the pir.

As for a locust vs pir that comes down to a few factors:

1. Over all damage sustained before the encounter.
2. Piloting skill of the mech. A novice light pilot might not know the circle of death or how to counter it.
3. Heat management because even the mg pir has at least one laser most the time.
4. Damage taken from enemy/team mates trying to assist in the fight.

I had to make a chart of where I put points on my locusts trying to make each one a different specialist build for one specific use ex the 1v(p) a lpl sniper or the 1E spl late match finisher. I left off the jj tree as none have jump jets. Since all lct are very lightly armored the golden rule of lights since the Jenner applies above all else: speed and mobility is life. I don't think any of my lct are missing speed tweak.

Mech fire tree survival tree mobile mech ops sensors aux

lct 1E 33 10 27 21 0 0
(got me the
ace of spades)

lct 1m 20 33 26 0 9 3

lct 1v (p) 41 0 28 22 9 0

lct 3m 28 6 30 0 16 11

lct 3s 19 31 29 0 11 1

lct 3v 0 16 28 0 24 16

lct pb hero 23 0 40 5 23 0

Also for the event challenge I've been using the is jenner d sarah variant with 4spls and 4 ssrm 4s so I have yet to fight lct vs pir so far.

Edit: formatting on the forum sucks, next time i'm just going to paste a link of the chart as a jpg or other image. Funny how the preview option and typing formatting looks great. Thanks pgi.

Edited by JediPanther, 28 January 2018 - 06:57 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Right. Piranha is fine.
It just doesn't ghost hits like a locust. That's fine considering it's fire potential.

[Y E O N N E]

JackalBeast, on 28 January 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

Right. Piranha is fine.
It just doesn't ghost hits like a locust. That's fine considering it's fire potential.

Uh, they both take their licks exactly the same.

But only one of them can actually gank a target.

[Jackal Noble]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 January 2018 - 11:02 PM, said:

Uh, they both take their licks exactly the same.

But only one of them can actually gank a target.

Well, that's more or less what I was going for. That's where the commando comes in to play ;-)