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The Great Gauss/ppc Debate


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#1 Mech The Dane

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 10:46 AM

I am creating this topic to specifically discuss the Gauss/PPC debate currently raging in the Community Driven Balance Update thread.

First, don't be wretched.
The fact we're having this discussion points to an earnest willingness on behalf of Tarogato and his group to present PGI with something that most of the community supports. While it might be easy to be dismissive or imprudent in the peanut gallery; to throw your hands up and declare the entire effort a bust if a single issue close to you doesn't go your way try your best to restrain those unworthy inclinations.

The amount of work Tarogato, Metachanic and Navid have put into this is exhaustive. And their efforts to HEAR everyone on these topics, frankly heroic. Certainly better than PGI has ever done, or attempted to do, and better than this community deserves. The goal is not to tear ourselves to pieces so that PGI can claim that we don't know what we want and therefore PGI can continue doing what they want. The goal is to demonstrate that community can, mostly, get behind something.

The community, being rather diverse, means we have people with many perspectives, emotions and ideas about how to do all this, and an effort to get most of them happy requires a great deal of COMPROMISE and requires the changes Tarogato's Folk make to be CONSERVATIVE in nature.

I know, I know, for a game filled with adults the concept of compromise is surprisingly hard to grasp, but it needs to happen. You won't get EVERYTHING you want, maybe most of what you want, but if you, or we, want anything that we want, it's still in all our best interests that some portion of these balance updates pass. The only people who should be against them are those who are in love with the current status quo.

Hopefully that's enough of preface to calm some of the rough waves thrashing about in the main thread, but I wont hold my breath.

Now, Gauss/PPC is being treated here separately from the main debate because its an extremely divisive issue. Unless a clear consensus can be established on this issue there is a good chance it'll be left out of the initial balance recommendations. This does not mean PGI wont be pressed to change it in the future, or that Tarogato's Gulag are giving up on it, just that there are other more widely supported initiatives they want to make sure happen before they tackle something as problematic as this.


Now, leaving out Gauss/PPC doesn't sit well with some people, so this topic will be our attempt to reach a consensus on the issue right now. If via voting in this poll and through careful debate one side or the other can muster significant support the Gauss/PPC matter can be either un-rolled back, or can be definitively tabled for the initial balance pass.

If this attempt at civil discourse, voting, and ultimately compromise is too much for you to handle as a presumably functional adult-human being then I put a pox upon your house and family and hope that all that is bright in your life withers away to dull despair, may ruin be your bedfellow and pain your only friend.

________________________________________________________________________________

AGAINST






I would rate the people against the PPC/Gauss as somewhat in agreement or inspired by Kanajashi's video on his concerns. They do not want the return of a weapon that was historically abused by skilled segments of the population. A large pin-point alpha at range with very little exposure time is a game play mechanic they see as inherently flawed. The sort of thing that exponentially increases the gap between the most skilled players in the game and the more numerous meat & potato player-base.

They believe the risk/reward aspect of it is skewed and do not want its return. They of course can further discuss and articulate their views in this thread, that is just my brief description of them as I understand them.

Furthermore, because of the way the game handles these things, if you allow players to bring 2ppc1gauss, it also means 1ppc2gauss will work. Which also means 3x PPC will work, which also means 2xGauss and 2x PPC will also work to a point. (3x GAUSS/ppc alphas mean we allow 3xERPPC alpha. Keeping the penalty on 3x cERPPC means we must allow 2x cGauss + 2xcERPPC Gauss)


__________________________________________________________________________________

FOR






The players for a return of Gauss/PPC would first point out that many of the historic issues surrounding their previous strength have been mitigated. For instance Mechs running those builds have had their agility heavily nerfed, which means they are difficult to position, and if closed upon, they have very little chance of escape. They think it's an important play style with significant and workable trade offs between risk and reward.

They think with the high damage that laservomit is capable of producing, along with the potential return of SRM & med brawling that this balance pass might encourage, that the Gauss/PPC builds of yore will fill an important niche, but also have exploitable weaknesses to aggression.


________________________________________________________________

Discuss, and vote on what you want to see in this game. Make your cases, and remember, you're not trying to put the other side down for being selfish, elitist, bad/good at this game, dumb, etc. You're trying to CONVINCE them of your side. This isn't cable news, this is a real life DEBATE. If you really want what you think should happen, to happen, then you need to get the community on your side.

And if it doesn't go your way you're going to need to be okay with it. There's still a lot of good in the balance update and there is always tomorrow (unless you refuse to work together and burn this entire endeavor down so PGI never listens again and therefore destroy all future tomorrows because you're a petulant child in an adult's body)

___________________________________________________________________________________

VOTE HERE





Due to forum limitations I cannot include the poll in this thread and so have made a seperate one for voting. Please use it to register your feelings on this matter. Let's actually see how the community feels.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 11 February 2018 - 11:05 AM.


#2 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:02 AM

The biggest issue will be the foundation of the techs. Clan mechs would benefit the most due to utilizing cXL for its weight savings with Endo/Ferro (where applicable) as well as lighter/less crit slots being used. Where as IS mechs, to prevent from dying with the loss of a side torso are regulated to a heavier LFE or heaviest STD, as well as said weapons being heavier and taking up more crit slots while doing lesser damage. Too many discard cERPPC splash damage while at the same time the majority of IS PPC arsenal have 0-damage as part of its formula instead of scaling the damage.

Even with that said, if not PPC+Gauss, for IS they are then regulated to ERLL/LL+GR (heavier/more crits), generally requiring glass isXL while at the low end Clans can effectively use GR+ERML.

Someone else can get into hard point locations and that for IS, many ballistics points are at low points with the humanoid mechs not having the ability to even raise an arm from its crotch scratching location.

I wished PGI had linked GR+PPC GH early on, before they completely castrated primarily heavy/assault mechs, instead of reworking and removing the major benefit the first JJ provided to bring things in line.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 11 February 2018 - 11:06 AM.


#3 Navid A1

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:02 AM

Quote

2xGauss and 2x PPC will also work to a point.


you can put a very large penalty on that one

#4 Leone

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:09 AM

Gauss+ppc is very effective in a sniping, hide n' poke style gameplay. I brawl. It's never really been a huge problem for me.

~Leone.

#5 Tarogato

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:13 AM

As far as I am aware, the way that PGI's system is built dictates us to choose between one of three solutions:



NO GAUSS/PPC

1 ---- 3x gaussPPC is not allowed. 4x gaussPPC is not allowed. This is how it presently is in the game.


YES GAUSS/PPC

2 ---- 4x gaussPPC is allowed. 3x PPC is not allowed. This is how it used to be in the game a few months back.

3 ---- 3x gaussPPC is allowed. 3x PPC is also allowed (no penalty). 4x gaussPPC is NOT allowed.

.

Edited by Tarogato, 11 February 2018 - 11:20 AM.


#6 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:14 AM

I'm all for full on dual gauss + dual ERPPC. It's not much different than the full on laser vomit plus gauss builds currently except it offers the trade off of lower damage for more pinpoint, I'd say its overall just a bit weaker on average, but it allows more mechs to come back to being viable since it brings back anything with a mix of 2 ballistic and 2 energy rather than 2 ballistic and 6-8 energy.

#7 East Indy

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:15 AM

I don't think it's helpful when players frame reactions strictly in terms of support. I've seen a few statements to that effect, and it politicizes the effort.

I'm not going to hold back strong criticism of parts of the rebalance or its foundation, because I'm focusing on the design. Whether or not (I think) the rebalance proposal will have a positive impact is irrelevant to the positive effort, or the constructive intentions, of those involved. I support players trying to help the game no matter what. I just feel I should offer my two cents as candidly as I can.

On the design question, I think enabling high-alpha combos (heavy ballistic or PPC/Gauss for heavies and assaults, Gauss/lasvom for heavies and mediums, dagger pinpoint for lights) fractures the game into hard-counter archetypes that only select chassis can field while it accelerates TTK. It mathematizes a meta, moving from attrition to single-shot death-blows, spoiling what a lot of people expect out of the BattleTech experience — and, to emphasize, haven't had for any length of time since 2012.

#8 MadBadger

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:17 AM

Given the current game mechanics, I am Against, for pretty much the summarized reasons stated.

Changes to some base design issues (like near-perfect convergence) would however open me up to consideration of the various PPC/Gauss combos.

#9 Tarogato

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:27 AM

View PostEscef, on 11 February 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

Gotta love how the question and possible answers are phrased. It really displays the author's bias.


How would you word it?

#10 AngrySpartan

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:30 AM

Voted yes, but:
just removing GH from Gauss/PPC combo in current state of the game IMHO is a bad idea. However, with proper mobility balance pass and other actions to make brawling more viable it might worth a try!

Limiting PPFLD alphas to 40-45 without penalties is something I can live with, if it means that new(or old) playstyles other than laservom/Gaussvom will be more viable. It's a pain in the butt to consider every possible combo with current GH system though.

Keep up with your work guys, hopefully PGI will listen (not that they did before)

Edited by AngrySpartan, 11 February 2018 - 11:37 AM.


#11 VonBruinwald

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:31 AM

View PostMadBadger, on 11 February 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

Given the current game mechanics, I am Against, for pretty much the summarized reasons stated.

Changes to some base design issues (like near-perfect convergence) would however open me up to consideration of the various PPC/Gauss combos.


This. The underlying mechanics need to be fixed before any changes are made otherwise you're just shifting the meta back to flppd snipe-fests.

#12 Battlemaster56

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:37 AM

I'm completely for Gauss/PPC combos to return in the game.

My main reasons for is build diversity, this is the biggest one if we limited options for mech builds and ideas it quickly reduce the variety the game needs, yes their is some good combos out their but it hurts the game overall when you take them or suggest linking others into GH links.

My second reason it gave chassis's a solid build to work with, especially ones with ridiculously low hardpoint counts. For example the HGN IIC have two solid builds that make it workable, that was Gauss and 2 ERPPC and Gauss and 3 ERLL, the chassis itself is so limited that any other option is moot, back to the point having a solid build is always good to have.

And to make this short, is the damage gauss ppc is easily manageable if you on the move and actually play smart and use the environment any play will take less damage from gauss erppc combos, and for Kana said on the video I layed with the guy he got my respect, but 40-50 damage in one location does hurt, but taking 70+ is insanely crippling especially with mechs like the MCMKII(1 and DS), KDK3, and Dire Wolf can pump out 80 plus no amount of torso twisting will help you as any moment and standard IS laser alpha can easily follow up and kill you.

#13 Yeonne Greene

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:37 AM

View PostTarogato, on 11 February 2018 - 11:13 AM, said:

As far as I am aware, the way that PGI's system is built dictates us to choose between one of three solutions:



NO GAUSS/PPC

1 ---- 3x gaussPPC is not allowed. 4x gaussPPC is not allowed. This is how it presently is in the game.


YES GAUSS/PPC

2 ---- 4x gaussPPC is allowed. 3x PPC is not allowed. This is how it used to be in the game a few months back.

3 ---- 3x gaussPPC is allowed. 3x PPC is also allowed (no penalty). 4x gaussPPC is NOT allowed.

.


There is one more solution for YES:

4. 1x Gauss + 2xPPC is allowed. 3x PPC is not allowed. 2x Gauss is not allowed (either ridiculously steep penalty or charge block). 2x Gauss + 2x PPC is not allowed (because 2x Gauss is not allowed).

Incidentally, this solution also nerfs gigantic Gauss-Vomit alphas from the Clan side; the MCII-DS would be limited to only 75 using HLL, 63 using ERLL. It would also, however, nerf the IS versions of the same, e.g. Nightstar can't do 63 but is now stuck doing 52. But the Banshee can still get to 67.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 11 February 2018 - 11:42 AM.


#14 Revis Volek

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:43 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:


There is one more solution for YES:

4. 1x Gauss + 2xPPC is allowed. 3x PPC is not allowed. 2x Gauss is not allowed (either ridiculously steep penalty or charge block). 2x Gauss + 2x PPC is not allowed (because 2x Gauss is not allowed).

Incidentally, this solution also nerfs gigantic Gauss-Vomit alphas from the Clan side; the MCII-DS would be limited to only 75 using HLL, 63 using ERLL. It would also, however, nerf the IS versions of the same, e.g. Nightstar can't do 63 but is now stuck doing 52. But the Banshee can still get to 67.



So energy draw on goose?

Edited by Revis Volek, 11 February 2018 - 11:44 AM.


#15 Yeonne Greene

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:45 AM

View PostRevis Volek, on 11 February 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:



So energy draw


That's...not at all energy draw. It's still using the existing ghost heat mechanics, or it's using the gauss charge limit. One or the other.

And I never said it was desirable solution, just that it's a possible one.

#16 Tlords

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:46 AM

With the current game mechanics I'm against Guass/PPC ghost heat being removed. My reason is Jump sniping...

Jump sniping provides too much reward for little risk with PPC and Gauss. Once solution... Fix the Gravity... so we don't have 4x's the gravity and mechs will hang in the air as they should when they jump. Longer exposure time = more risk...

If you can't fix the gravity up the ghost heat when you jump and fire a ballistic, think of it as using additional reaction mass from the fusion engine venting to overcome the recoil of the Gauss and PPCs.

If that doesn't work, Burn all your jump fuel to overcome the recoil as your mech tries to balance in the air. ONe you burn through your jump fuel - Ghost heat proportional to the fuel you need to minimize recoil.

Bottom line: Gauss / PPC isn' the problem, jump sniping with the weapons are.

Edited by Tlords, 11 February 2018 - 11:48 AM.


#17 Revis Volek

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:47 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:


That's...not at all energy draw. It's still using the existing ghost heat mechanics, or it's using the gauss charge limit. One or the other.

And I never said it was desirable solution, just that it's a possible one.



OK, i was cornfused. I read it wrong i think i thought you were suggesting that anytime 2x gauss was used you couldn't shoot both with lasers at the same time, not a GH thing more a hard limit like they dont fire.

Edited by Revis Volek, 11 February 2018 - 11:47 AM.


#18 AngrySpartan

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:50 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:


There is one more solution for YES:

4. 1x Gauss + 2xPPC is allowed. 3x PPC is not allowed. 2x Gauss is not allowed (either ridiculously steep penalty or charge block). 2x Gauss + 2x PPC is not allowed (because 2x Gauss is not allowed).

Incidentally, this solution also nerfs gigantic Gauss-Vomit alphas from the Clan side; the MCII-DS would be limited to only 75 using HLL, 63 using ERLL. It would also, however, nerf the IS versions of the same, e.g. Nightstar can't do 63 but is now stuck doing 52. But the Banshee can still get to 67.

Add Light, Heavy and Snub PPCs into the mix. And don't forget about Light and Heavy Gauss as well. There is nothing wrong even with triple Light gauss/light/snub PPCs. It's a huge headacke to make all this 3060+ tech combos to be all balanced and not limiting to smaller weapons at the same time.

View PostRevis Volek, on 11 February 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

So energy draw on goose?

Ironically Energy Draw in its initial state (overdrawing affects accuracy, not the heat) would have solved both perfect convergence issue and allowed for diverse mech building. Conversation for another topic though.

#19 Yeonne Greene

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:59 AM

View PostRevis Volek, on 11 February 2018 - 11:47 AM, said:



OK, i was cornfused. I read it wrong i think i thought you were suggesting that anytime 2x gauss was used you couldn't shoot both with lasers at the same time, not a GH thing more a hard limit like they dont fire.


To clarify, the solution is one of two things:

1. You charge and fire two Gauss, you get a massive heat spike

2. You cannot charge more than one Gauss at a time

Either one puts the kibosh on two Gauss and any number of PPCs without taking away from two PPCs and any one Gauss so long as you de-link PPC and Gauss ghost heat groupings, otherwise the system is going to smack you with the penalty for firing two PPCs past the limit. RIP.

View PostAngrySpartan, on 11 February 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

Add Light, Heavy and Snub PPCs into the mix. And don't forget about Light and Heavy Gauss as well. There is nothing wrong even with triple Light gauss/light/snub PPCs. It's a huge headacke to make all this 3060+ tech combos to be all balanced and not limiting to smaller weapons at the same time.


KISS, this is just a proof of concept.

And yeah, this would be a real pain in the arse to balance with the other guns, mostly the HGauss and HPPC. Even if you somehow limit to allow 2PPC + Gauss without messing with other builds, the IS get to fire 45 points (IMHO, this isn't a problem because they don't get 80 point laser/gauss alphas except at 253 meters).

Personally, I don't want to hard-limit charging. Dual HGauss is like, the only thing the IS have right now that offers a comparable performance to Clan vomit or Gauss vomit. Even if we were to hard-limit standard Gauss to just one, this would still be the case. I also don't really like the heat-spiking, because that confines dual Gauss to itself and ruins some of the builds on 'Mechs like the Warhammer 6R, NSR-9FC, or EBJ that aren't even a little bit OP.

#20 L0stA1m

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:59 AM

Im totally for Gauss/PPC.
Bring back a high skill ceiling playstyle is healthy for the non spud playerbase.
I dont get it why PGI linked them in the first place. i mean they were allready overshadowed by other configs.
Better JJ would also be great to improve the pace of gameplay.

Edited by L0stA1m, 11 February 2018 - 12:01 PM.






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