347 replies to this topic

[Kubernetes]

I sometimes wonder if there are two games called MWO and I'm playing the wrong one.


The HPPC Hopper is a fine build, but it's situational and it's mobility is anemic compared to the Summoner. The range of cERPPCs over HPPC means the Summoner is a superior all-conditions can-opener.

BTW, try the Huntsman as a replacement for the Hunchie IIC poptart. It has much better agility and JJ at the price of more widely set mounts (convergence).

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 09:08 PM, said:

Where in heck are you doing your math? They both literally have more or less the same cooling power (before factoring in the skill tree, which isn't even much of a difference).

Grasshopper has less JJ lift, agility, and speed compared to the Summoner.

I'm not seeing what you're seeing, and yet noone seriously uses the Grasshopper for PPC pewpew.

The GHR generates 24.3 heat per shot to the Summoner's 29. That's where he's getting his math,

Add on the heat gen nodes and Cool Run to taste.

[justcallme A S H]

I can assure you the GHP-5H (heat gen) is not as good as the SMN in any way.

I have tried my best to make IS ERPPC work and it just, doesn't. HPPC isn't too bad, but even then it is not great.

Hell try 4 ERPPC on a Banshee/Battlemaster over a WHK with 4xcERPPC and then you'll really see how bad IS PPC is then.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 11 February 2018 - 09:12 PM.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 09:10 PM, said:

The GHR generates 24.3 heat per shot to the Summoner's 29. That's where he's getting his math,

Add on the heat gen nodes and Cool Run to taste.

I already have a lot of those nodes on the Summoner. The GHR does not have any natural heat gen quirks (using the 5P for reference, unless we're talking about a totally different variant). You're still not doing significant damage with IS ERPPCs either way.

[Y E O N N E]

justcallme A S H, on 11 February 2018 - 09:10 PM, said:

I can assure you the GHP-5H is not as good as the SMN in any way.

I have tried my best to make IS ERPPC work and it just, doesn't. HPPC isn't too bad, but even then it is not great.

Hell try 4 ERPPC on a Banshee over a WHK with 4xcERPPC and then you'll really see how bad IS PPC is then.

Bruh, AWS-8Q.

Still not as good, though.

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 09:11 PM, said:

I already have a lot of those nodes on the Summoner. The GHR does not have any natural heat gen quirks (using the 5P for reference, unless we're talking about a totally different variant). You're still not doing significant damage with IS ERPPCs either way.

The GHR-5H is the variant we are discussing and it has a -10% Energy Heat Gen quirk.

Don't disagree about the damage, though.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 09:11 PM, said:

I already have a lot of those nodes on the Summoner. The GHR does not have any natural heat gen quirks (using the 5P for reference, unless we're talking about a totally different variant). You're still not doing significant damage with IS ERPPCs either way.

I was using one of the variants with 10% heat gen quirks for the Grasshopper comparison.

I was also manually doing the math, since PPCs are a frontloaded damage weapon their heat is also frontloaded, so you can calculate it in spikes.

For example, if you generate 5 heat per shot and have heat cap of 10 but a cooling of 1 with a cooldown of 2 then you cool 2 heat per firing cycle and generate 5 heat per firing cycle.

This means you fire and you have:
5 heat
cool to 3 heat
fire again and you're at 8 heat
cool to 6
fire again and you're at 11 and overheated.

I do this except for with the actual numbers so that I can see exactly how many times the mech can fire before overheat, how much heat it generates before it overheats, and then all the numbers I got there. This means that even though the Grasshopper and Summoner have the same cooling, the grasshopper's lower cooldowns and lower heat per shot end up having the Grasshopper as fully superior (from a firepower point of view, at least if you don't care for splash), able to get off its volley faster then return faster to do it again compared to the Summoner even though the Summoner's stats show a higher cooling efficiency.

[Johnny Z]

When I seen this topic a tear came to my eye. Its the most beautiful thing I have ever seen on these forums.

Edited by Johnny Z, 11 February 2018 - 09:26 PM.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

The GHR-5H is the variant we are discussing and it has a -10% Energy Heat Gen quirk.

Don't disagree about the damage, though.

It's akin to the old days where the BJ-3 had super PPC quirks. It was better to have like 3 PPCs than 2 ERPPCs, just based on pure burst damage alone.

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 09:23 PM, said:

I was using one of the variants with 10% heat gen quirks for the Grasshopper comparison.

I was also manually doing the math, since PPCs are a frontloaded damage weapon their heat is also frontloaded, so you can calculate it in spikes.

For example, if you generate 5 heat per shot and have heat cap of 10 but a cooling of 1 with a cooldown of 2 then you cool 2 heat per firing cycle and generate 5 heat per firing cycle.

This means you fire and you have:
5 heat
cool to 3 heat
fire again and you're at 8 heat
cool to 6
fire again and you're at 11 and overheated.

I do this except for with the actual numbers so that I can see exactly how many times the mech can fire before overheat, how much heat it generates before it overheats, and then all the numbers I got there. This means that even though the Grasshopper and Summoner have the same cooling, the grasshopper's lower cooldowns and lower heat per shot end up having the Grasshopper as fully superior (from a firepower point of view, at least if you don't care for splash), able to get off its volley faster then return faster to do it again compared to the Summoner even though the Summoner's stats show a higher cooling efficiency.

While the Grasshopper has sustainability, it does not make up in damage, agility (cause you do need accel and decel if you like peeking), and overall speed. Grasshoppers simply don't relocate more effectively, which is more important than holding your ground (in comp play, poptarting is not synonymous with holding your ground - it gets you killed quicker - you poptart from multiple angles and directions).

You're not supposed to have ERPPC sustainability when it comes to poptarting. That's just stupid. It's just like having DPS superiority with Gauss... that's not a serious thing.

Just for fun, I played one match and murdered things with a 2 CERPPC Summoner. Gee, so hard. I'm not going to build a 2 ERPPC Grasshopper... I already know how crappy that build is to begin with.

Edit:
What's up with the mechlab bugs - like there is no proper count of external DHS (outside the engine - it says 0 when I know there's obviously more than 0), and the velocity? The 2 CERPPC Summoner has ERPPC arm velocity quirk ontop of the TC4's 20% velocity quirk, and the PGI's mechlab math says "1500 +255"??? How do I PGI math?

2nd Edit:
So, I see I have 12% velocity from the skill tree, 5% CERPPC quirked arm, and 20% from the TC4.

The +255 seems to only come from the skill tree and quirks, but not the TC4.

Math wat, PGI doesn't.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 February 2018 - 09:56 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

XtremeAlex, on 11 February 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

try to play FP as a Clan and than as IS.
we switch every week.
every time we go IS it happens that

1) we roll everything in few instants with ease, no brain mode; while with clans we have to play properly even if we spam only Supernovas mad cat MKII, mad IIC, summoner hellbringer, linebacker, hunchback IIC and piranha.
2) we wait 15 mins to lock even with a 12 man (we usually grab 6 random pugs tier 9 just to get 12 man and lock the match) cause everyone and his dog knows clan is useless trash now and everyone goes IS

on 265 tons, IS meta laser and gauss deck kills clan meta deck by far
3 grasshopper\warhammer and 1 srm brawl bushwaker??!?!?!??!? really??? 3 black knight and 1 assassin? 1 annihilator 1 black knight 1 grassopper 1 locust 5 meds????
at range you go 2 battlemasters 1 rifleman 2ll+6erml 21 dhs and 1 wolfound.....really???!!


stop this clan op nonsense

IS have
1) better structure quirks
2)tankier chassis
3) better duration
4) better quirks
5) heavygauss
6)more drop deck tonnage
7) better agility
8) dps rac 5, clans have no ballistics, they all suck


Clans DO NOT HAVE
1) more range: now IS range is almost equal and battlemasters kill everything at range
2)more heat efficiency: clan laser vomit have 25-24 dhs while IS ones got 20, but IS ones got better damage per heat ratio and better heatgen quirks (black knight and grasshopper).
3) more damage per instant: clans pack 4erml and 2 HLL, IS pack 3ll+6erml (warhammer, grasshopper, black knight: take a calculator and you your math)
4) better assault mechs: annihilator 6 erml and 2 heavy gauss is the omni king, kills everything
5) better equipment, really, go read the stats


it is about time to

1) reverse the skill node heat gen and cooldown nerf on clans
2) buff both clan and IS gauss range
3) allow clans to shoot 3 LPL, HLL and erll at same time like IS
4) buff every ballistic in game, clan or IS
5) bring back cerml heat to 6
6) buff cerll range by 40 meters, but heat 11

Trying to use FP to judge anything balance wise is a mistake. FP is a mode dominated by baby seal clubbing, less often are there evenly skilled teams meeting. When one team is stacked with better players, the techbase frankly doesnt matter.

Other evidence suggests that clans still have an edge. For example, the MWOWC 2017 was played with massive majority clan mechs.

PGI still gives IS a tonnage handicap in FP last I checked.

Finally, from my own experience playing the game, most of my best mechs have been clan.

So when people complain "Stop Nerfing Clams PGI pl0x", i really dont have sympathy.

Except, I think at this point buffing stuff up is better than nerfing down (but PGI throws in wrenches and finds a way to power creep something even further).

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

While the Grasshopper has sustainability, it does not make up in damage, agility (cause you do need accel and decel if you like peeking), and overall speed. Grasshoppers simply don't relocate more effectively, which is more important than holding your ground (in comp play, poptarting is not synonymous with holding your ground - it gets you killed quicker - you poptart from multiple angles and directions).

You're not supposed to have ERPPC sustainability when it comes to poptarting. That's just stupid. It's just like having DPS superiority with Gauss... that's not a serious thing.

Just for fun, I played one match and murdered things with a 2 CERPPC Summoner. Gee, so hard. I'm not going to build a 2 ERPPC Grasshopper... I already know how crappy that build is to begin with.

So it has sustainability but also more damage in a shorter duration of time over the Summoner, and within reason, why does the accel and decel matter for peeking if you're using your jump jets for peeking since the whole point of the build is that you're a poptart?

Also, not supposed to have sustainability with ERPPCs? Then why does cooling matter so much if you suddenly don't need sustain? What's the problem about having sustain anyway, that's more just a side affect of the build since it has lower heat gen? You say it as if not overheating in a situation where opportunity arises and there is a target rich environment, such as a push of some sort, is a bad thing.

Lastly:
>Murdered things with dual ERPPC Summoner out in quickplay
>That means anything at all when pretty much any mech does that with proper piloting

How about we just keep looking at the empirical data rather than the equivalent to "hey dood, look at this screenshot of me doing 1000 damage in X, that totally proves my point". Going with the cop out of "I'm not going to build a 2 ERPPC Grasshopper... I already know how crappy that build is to begin with." is no better than the IS loyalists who never use clan tech saying Clans OP.

[El Bandito]

XtremeAlex, on 11 February 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

8) dps rac 5, clans have no ballistics, they all suck

When the Clanner is crying about RACs, then you know he is flat out wrong.

[Luminis]

Meh, I'm quite certain the Clans still have the best individual Mechs.

Best Assault: MCII-DS
Best Heavy: Hellbringer
Best Medium: Bushwacker
Best Light: I'm inclined to say Piranha from what I've seen.

The 25 ton advantage per player might be too much at this point, skewing FP in favor of IS, might be possible. Wouldn't hurt to try, I guess. But as far as tech base and individual Mechs go? I'd say that the best of the IS still can't hang with the best of the Clans. I also think that the way you really can't buy IS Mechs without knowing their quirks speaks volumes, as opposed to Clans which have to worry about one less variable, for the most part.

[El Bandito]

The day when best IS mechs can compete without quirks against best Clan mechs across all classes is the day I say cross faction balance is achieved.

[PocketYoda]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 07:11 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1a862b5715505ee
54% cooling eff after the 10% heat gen quirk is unusable?

12.15 heat per shot vs 14.5, about 84% heat per shot. 3 HPS vs 2.9 HPS, and you have a second shorter cooldown on the Grasshopper. I'm feeling it has some real good chances over the Summoner, especially with the arguably better hitboxes, especially for long range combat with it being so thin.



True, though I'm betting on the higher velocity of the Grasshopper's shells and the higher refire rate being a bit better at making up for missing CT than the 5 damage to it on miss.



Mist Lynx is slower than the Commando, Locust, or Wolfhound though, so it can't really dominate with flamers, since you could just run out of range, infact you could just run out of MG range, especially Wolfhound with 6 MPLs, Commando could also get by doing it with its SRMs.

I definitely agree with that last bit though. I find that in general IS and Clans are pretty on par with eachother ton for ton, quirks actually add up to more than people give them credit for, and with nerfs to Clan equipment there's various spots favoring each side, but when IS has a tonnage advantage thrown into this ontop of their already tanky nature things become out of wack, because then we're no longer comparing Mist Lynxes to Commandos, its Mist Lynxes to Wolfhounds, Hellbringers to Black Knights, could even argue Summoner to Victor for poptart in FP.



Can't take it seriously when you're saying Timber Wolf is overpowered these days.

Considering the only mech i've ever got a thousand damage in was one.. and remember i'm a potato everyone keeps saying so... but in my first timber wolf i get over a 1000 damage.. not op at all..

Seranov, on 11 February 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

>he thinks the Timberwolf is OP
Haha, oh wow.

Again only mech i've ever got over 1000 damage on just this last week, me 1000+ and not op, i've never even seen 700 damage on any single IS mech ever.. in three years... and my second game ever in it i got 1000 plus.. you people..

Edited by Samial, 12 February 2018 - 12:44 AM.

[Dajegas]

nehebkau, on 11 February 2018 - 03:19 PM, said:

Wow.... I love how you completely ignore the customization, lower crit spaces and weight of clan equipment and generalize about the structure quirks -- which only apply to a few chassis and focus on a weapon that all but a few IS mechs have to strip down everything to use.

Lemme guess, you like to play the 'nonperforming' clan chassis' and are comparing to the best that IS has.... Have some more tide pods.

nehebkau, on 11 February 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

Just because I made a valid point doesn't mean you have to go all equestrian on me. If you are going to complain about the best of IS then you must do so from the point of using the best that the clans have to offer.... or are you just gonna fake news it?

I know the OP and dropped with him. He plays better than you or me ever will, so assuming (like you did) he's writing what he writes because he cannot build a mech properly is wrong. Period. Sorry if it hurt your feelings, but just assuming someone cannot play to prove him wrong is not the way to go.

Edited by Dajegas, 12 February 2018 - 12:39 AM.

[Yondu Udonta]

I love how people shittalk the OP when they couldn't even hold a candle to his skill.

[radiv]

This thread is so full of personal bs its hillarius. Its like watching a bunch of 5 year olds aguing whos dad is stronger except in this case its mech thats weaker.

[sycocys]

I wonder if its not so much a tech issue, but a bias issue based on WHO they are dropping against after they switch.

Try not jumping about at the same time as the other units so you tend to match up against people with equal skill and organization.

[The Basilisk]

XtremeAlex, on 11 February 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

[lots of irrelevant stuff]

-- Laser vomit Hellbringer with 2HLLasers and 4 ERMLasers
-- MC Mk II going over 70kph and carrying 2 Gauss, 2 HLLaser and 2ERMlasers
-- Clan SRMs still weighting half as much as IS SRM while delivering the same dmg at point blank --> SRM MadDog or Huntsman with 9 SRM6

The only thing that goes against clans is that playing clans can be a bit monoton since Clan laser vomit, Gauss or SRM Splat is the answer to all your problems and so overwhelming you do not need anything else.

And honestly....as long as the tonnage damage ratio of clan weapons does not change there is no way this will ever change.
Clan Mechs are faster, carry more damage per tonnage and have higher initial range.
Due to the limited scope of the game, smal map and battlesizes higher heat and lower armor on clan side simply does not matter since any coordinated alpha from two or three clan mechs has the potential of bringing down any IS Mech on ranges beyond 450m -----> that means bringing down any IS Mech before he is in effective weapons range for any of the shiny weapons you mentioned

It boiles down to rigorously playing each faction to their strengthes....and in FP the favored side was is and will be Clans do to the nature and structure of most maps.....and frankly this did not change since clans and CW came out.

[El Bandito]

Yondu the Ravager, on 12 February 2018 - 12:57 AM, said:

I love how people shittalk the OP when they couldn't even hold a candle to his skill.

He skill doesn't matter at all if he think IS RACs are worth mentioning. And Clan ballistics suck? Did he forget Clan Gauss by convenience?

OP is so biased that he should run as a spokesperson for Donald Trump. Take this part of his post as example:

XtremeAlex, on 11 February 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

3) more damage per instant: clans pack 4erml and 2 HLL, IS pack 3ll+6erml (warhammer, grasshopper, black knight: take a calculator and you your math)

Clan heavies and assaults pack six ERML + 2xHLL, and Deathstrike can pack 2xGauss on top. And the 6xERML+2xHLL setup can still does more damage than the 3xLL+6xERML IS setup in 1.1 second, when the IS LL finishes its duration. Besides battle is not 1v1 affair, and in a team poking match Clan las-vomit's superior range also contributes a lot. Everyone knows by now not to trade with Clanners at midrange, cause their las-vomit is simply superior.


It is like OP is intentionally trying to show off IS's strong side while completely ignoring IS's shortcomings.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 February 2018 - 02:16 AM.