120 replies to this topic

[Spare Parts Bin]

I want to say thanks to all of you who respond to my posts but especially Just Call Me Ash and Horseman.

When you guys started talking about reducing the numbers of different weapons I use to 2-3, I must say that sounded counterintuitive. However I played 3 games in Direwolf UV today and did 452,346,and 260+ damage. My build was twin CLBX-2s in the arms with 2-3 tons ammo. Right&Left torsos contain one CERLL, either CAP or TC2 or 3. Head mounts another CERLL. CT has either LRM-10 or 15. I did not score any Kills but got 3 Kill Most Damage Done.

It is starting to make more sense now.

[justcallme A S H]

Take off the LBX2 (worst weapon in the game) and replace with cUAC2s, at least 4.

Removing the LRMs, you'll crank 500dmg a game with ease.


Less weapons is not only easier to manage but using the same ones means less tonnage across different weapon types.
Never mix ballistic and missile, it's not not tonnage efficient

[CFC Conky]

If you watch Youtube streamers like Baradul, Kanajashi or Snuggles Time, you'll soon notice that they usually carry two weapon types. I try to limit my build to three types, usually two.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Kin3ticX]

Many stock ‘Mechs will usually be set up with something similar to a bracket build. The mixing of several different weapon types with wildly different effective ranges (LRMs, Ballistics, SRMs, etc.) constitutes a bracket build.

Bracket builds or generalist builds have a something to contribute in multiple situations. However, the main downside with these high mix builds is they lack focus and wind up not doing anything well. This is not meant to suggest simple mixes are bad. An example of high mix build would be (LRMs + Autocannons + Lasers). A more focused low mix build could have just ER Medium Lasers and SRMs, or just Gauss Rifles and Lasers, or just Large Pulse Lasers and Medium Lasers. The key difference here is that on high-mix builds, not all the weapons synergize well with all the other weapons. In simple mixes there is greater potential for weapons to better compliment each other.

From the table top game, stock ‘Mechs such as the Stalker or Dire Wolf are designed to be dangerous on paper even when half the is ‘Mech destroyed. This is why their stock configurations are intentionally way overgunned and blazing hot. However, in MWO, these stock builds are considered seriously suboptimal.
Using the stock Stalker-3F as an example of the old concept, as targets get within 1000 meters the LRMs can be utilized. Once the target gets somewhat closer, LRMs and Large Lasers can be fired together. With the target softened up and still closing in, now the medium lasers and SRMs can be used to finish the job. LRMs will not be generating heat below 180m so that leaves more room to fire alternate close-in weapons. Similarly, the Medium Lasers and SRM-6s will not be generating heat at long-range(unless you push the wrong button ). Sounds great in the traditional theory, but tough to produce numbers with consistently in MWO, especially against serious competition.

Bottom line, a generalist ‘Mech will have serious trouble consistently utilizing all their different weapons. Specialists will outgun you at the range they specialize at assuming they stay in their element. Large amounts of payload on generalist ‘Mechs may often go to complete waste in these situations. For example, if you have a couple token LRM launchers and you are hugged at brawl range, the LRMs become a significant handicap. If you get stuck in a mid-long range standoff, only your mid-long range weapons can contribute and your close-in weapons are waste tonnage (all the while your opponents likely didn't bother with close-in weapons).

Min-Maxing is simply stripping down the stock ‘Mech and attempting to minimize the flaws while maximizing the desired traits. The resulting custom ‘Mech ends up being superior to the stock configuration.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 23 February 2018 - 02:23 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

CFC Conky, on 22 February 2018 - 10:04 PM, said:

If you watch Youtube streamers like Baradul, Kanajashi or Snuggles Time, you'll soon notice that they usually carry two weapon types. I try to limit my build to three types, usually two.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Without being rude, there are far better streamers to watch if you want to learn/improve at the game.

Bearclaw / Juju / TheB33f / Writhen / Solitude / Machiina

Etc. All are top level players you wanna learn from and if you ask they will run you through stuff generally. Hell even watch mine (just getting started recently). Although mine is more Oceanic time right now

Edited by justcallme A S H, 23 February 2018 - 01:43 AM.

[Horseman]

Spare Parts Bin, on 22 February 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

When you guys started talking about reducing the numbers of different weapons I use to 2-3, I must say that sounded counterintuitive. However I played 3 games in Direwolf UV today and did 452,346,and 260+ damage. My build was twin CLBX-2s in the arms with 2-3 tons ammo. Right&Left torsos contain one CERLL, either CAP or TC2 or 3. Head mounts another CERLL. CT has either LRM-10 or 15. I did not score any Kills but got 3 Kill Most Damage Done.

I would advise against mixing LRMs with long range direct fire weapons - in my own experience, the combination is just distracting you from full effectiveness.
On LRM-centric builds there's some point to pairing them with MLs, MPLs or ERMLs as secondary weapons, but that's the extent of it.

justcallme A S H, on 22 February 2018 - 10:03 PM, said:

Less weapons is not only easier to manage but using the same ones means less tonnage across different weapon types.

And also means you don't have to carry too many different types of ammunition - if you have a single weapon that uses a given ammo type and it gets disabled, you're sitting on a pile of unexploded ordnance that's just asking to be detonated by enemy fire. When you instead have several matching weapons, losing one of them just reduces the size of your salvo - but the ammo will continue to be put to good use.

An exception to this are missiles, where launchers differ by tube count but use a single shared ammo type.

Quote

Never mix ballistic and missile, it's not not tonnage efficient

Unless the mech doesn't have energy hardpoints eg Centurion AH.

Edited by Horseman, 23 February 2018 - 04:42 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Spare Parts Bin, on 22 February 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

I want to say thanks to all of you who respond to my posts but especially Just Call Me Ash and Horseman.

When you guys started talking about reducing the numbers of different weapons I use to 2-3, I must say that sounded counterintuitive. However I played 3 games in Direwolf UV today and did 452,346,and 260+ damage. My build was twin CLBX-2s in the arms with 2-3 tons ammo. Right&Left torsos contain one CERLL, either CAP or TC2 or 3. Head mounts another CERLL. CT has either LRM-10 or 15. I did not score any Kills but got 3 Kill Most Damage Done.

It is starting to make more sense now.

Counterintuitive ?
Not realy.
Try to think of it that way:
When you rack up a bunch of ACs of the same type you essentially fuse them to one big weaponsystem.
6 UAC2 become a six barreled UAC mount that acts as one weaponsystem.

Keeping track of range, heatoutput, lead and ammo of one weaponsystem is easyer than controlling 3 or 4 completely different weaponsystems at a time.

Counter example a Mauler could carry lasers, missiles and AC/MGs at the same time.
That would be 3 weaponsystems with different heat, aiming, damage/range and ammo profiles even if each system contains multiple weapons.

It's PGIs dumb and lazy way of implementing things that makes weapons acting so strange that you simply can fuse a number of smal weapons to one big without need to adjust, align or what ever them on target.

Edited by The Basilisk, 23 February 2018 - 05:25 AM.

[Spare Parts Bin]

How about 1)quad UAC-2s,trio of MPLs,and a trio of SRM-6s, or 2)dual UAC-5s,dual UAC-2s, and dual ERPPCs or CLPLs.

Edited by Spare Parts Bin, 23 February 2018 - 11:34 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

Spare Parts Bin, on 23 February 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

How about 1)quad UAC-2s,trio of MPLs,and a trio of SRM-6s, or 2)dual UAC-5s,dual UAC-2s, and dual ERPPCs or CLPLs.

Quad UAC2's are extremely long ranged, pairing them with MPL's / SRM's seems like a bad idea. You'll only use half your weapons at long range, and be minimally effective at short range.

Dual UAC5's + Dual UAC2's is again a decently long ranged weapon system, but why pair them with ERPPC's or cLPLs? Sounds like it would be too hot, and you wouldn't have the tonnage / space for enough heatsinks to cool them with the space taken up by the autocannons and ammo. Just go for a pure UAC build if you want dakka, maybe throw like 4 medium lasers on it as a backup weapon system.

[Horseman]

If you're going for a lot of UACs, they will produce a lot of heat by themselves. If you really want to build for range, Gauss Rifles and ER Large Lasers are a decent pairing.

Edited by Horseman, 23 February 2018 - 12:13 PM.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Horseman, on 23 February 2018 - 12:13 PM, said:

If you're going for a lot of UACs, they will produce a lot of heat by themselves. If you really want to build for range, Gauss Rifles and ER Large Lasers are a decent pairing.

I can't hit the broad side of an Atlas with a Gauss Rifle.

[SilentScreamer]

Spare Parts Bin, on 22 February 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

When you guys started talking about reducing the numbers of different weapons I use to 2-3, I must say that sounded counterintuitive.
...
It is starting to make more sense now.

Kin3ticX, on 23 February 2018 - 01:12 AM, said:

Many stock ‘Mechs will usually be set up with something similar to a bracket build. The mixing of several different weapon types with wildly different effective ranges (LRMs, Ballistics, SRMs, etc.) constitutes a bracket build.

Bracket builds or generalist builds have a something to contribute in multiple situations. However, the main downside with these high mix builds is they lack focus and wind up not doing anything well.
...
The key difference here is that on high-mix builds, not all the weapons synergize well with all the other weapons. In simple mixes there is greater potential for weapons to better compliment each other.

From the table top game, stock ‘Mechs such as the Stalker or Dire Wolf are designed to be dangerous on paper even when half the is ‘Mech destroyed. This is why their stock configurations are intentionally way overgunned and blazing hot. However, in MWO, these stock builds are considered seriously suboptimal.
...
Sounds great in the traditional theory, but tough to produce numbers with consistently in MWO, especially against serious competition.

Bottom line, a generalist ‘Mech will have serious trouble consistently utilizing. Specialists will outgun you at all ranges and they will try to stay in their element. Large amounts of payload on generalist ‘Mechs may often go to complete waste in these situations.

Min-Maxing is simply stripping down the stock ‘Mech and attempting to minimize the flaws while maximizing the desired traits. The resulting custom ‘Mech ends up being superior to the stock configuration.

Spare Parts Bin, on 23 February 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

How about 1)quad UAC-2s,trio of MPLs,and a trio of SRM-6s, or 2)dual UAC-5s,dual UAC-2s, and dual ERPPCs or CLPLs.

Do not be afraid to experiment, but you have recieved very sound advice above.

Good pairings in my opinion:
- mechs using multiple PPCs, Large Lasers, or 5+ Medium or Small Lasers general should add more heatsinks instead of another weapon system. Machine guns can be a great addition if you have multiple ballistic hardpoints.
- Clan UACs with Clan PPCs or Clan Large class lasers
- Clan SRMs or Clan Streaks with Medium or Small class lasers
- Clan LRMs with Small or Medium Class Lasers
- standard LRMs are easy prey at ranges under 180m, so a few medium or small lasers can let you fight back a little while you wait for team support.
- Light PPCs or standard PPCs with SRMs
- PPCs and ER PPCs with gauss

As mentioned you want to avoid mixing weapons that use different ammunition. Mixing AC types, or SRMs with LRMs, generally should be saved for mechs that do not have enough energy hardpoints available. The Centurion AH was mention as an exception, additionally I run the Wolverine 6R and tge Shadowhawk 2D2 with an AC plus SRMs.

[Tesunie]

I will comment that, as many have already noted, there are strengths and weaknesses to every choice you make when building a mech.

Between a generalist/bracketed build and a specialist build each have their place and their strengths. A specialist build offers best performance within it's designated role, and poor performance most times outside that role. Catch a specialist build outside it's strength and you can often times defeat it (especially if you have a specialist build that can maximize that weakness).

Generalist/bracketed builds also have their own strengths, but often times are overall harder to use. Their strength comes from a lack of obvious weakness and ability to maintain effectiveness at a larger number of roles. This can be great if you don't know what role you are going to be filling at a given time or like more flexibility within your builds. (I personally like to generalize my builds a little, so I cover my weaknesses a bit.)


The trick with generalist/bracketed builds is to gauge your opponents and play to their weakness. This is counter to what most people want to do and what is generally seen as easier to do. Most people like specialist builds because they only have to focus on playing to their strength. However, if you can see their weakness and exploit it, a generalist build can have an edge in any situation. If you can't, then the opposite can be true, where that generalist build can be very weak in every situation against a specialist build (because they are playing to their strength).


I personally like more generalized builds for several reasons. For one, I can pack a little more firepower than most would expect. As someone mentioned above, it's because you are not shooting with all your weapons at once, affording you the ability to carry what may be considered as too low of a cooling capacity. For a second point, I like to always maintain some efficiency in nearly any given situation.

Of course, I will comment that there are ways to "generalize" by having a focus role and then a secondary role. There can be a tipping point where a focus isn't strong enough and it's too generalized, or it's trying to generalize into too many roles at once. I find it best to work with two roles, maybe three at the most.


I'll make mention that you should also look for weapon combinations that compliment each other well. LLs and ERMLs work well together. HLLs and ERMLs also work well. ATMs and SSRMs can be a reasonable combination. MRMs and MLs seem to work well together as well. AC10s and PPCs can be good due to similar range brackets. Even Artemis LRMs and SSRMs can be good, because SSRMs benefit from Artemis. Knowing good weapon combinations can improve mixed builds.

A lot of build construction depends upon what you want your mech to do, what you expect to get out of your mech.

[Horseman]

Spare Parts Bin, on 23 February 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

I can't hit the broad side of an Atlas with a Gauss Rifle.

Velocity nodes in the skill tree + targeting computer for velocity buffs.

[Metus regem]

Spare Parts Bin, on 23 February 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

I can't hit the broad side of an Atlas with a Gauss Rifle.

Practice, seriously.

When I first started I couldn't make the Gauss family work for me... The thing to keep in mind, even as fast as the Gauss goes (2,000m/second) means you still have to shoot where they are going to be not where they are... depending on how far you are from your target. With the cGR (Clan Gauss Rifle), at optimal range of 660m, you need to aim a little over a quarter of a second ahead of where they are going to be to hit them, if they are running across your screen. If they are poking out from behind cover, you just need to learn to anticipate their movements.


The Guass family is so fast they are nearly hit-scan weapons (meaning they hit the target as soon as you pull the trigger) like lasers, when you are shooting at something with in your optimal range. The other thing to keep in mind with them, is learn to read the charge mechanic on them, when you charge them, one of the indicators on the side of your HUD will change to green when the charge is ready (or being held), then go red after the charge is gone, during the recycle time.

As your personal skill with leading targets improve, you can branch out to different weapons to try and get a feel for how they work. Myself I really like (U)AC/10's and PPC's, I've gotten to the point where maintain nearly 70% hit rate with the PPC family, and pushing 65% with (U)AC/10's.


How ever, back to topic at hand, bracket builds have a place, and really shine when you get the right pilot for them behind the sticks, but for just starting or the average pilot I really wouldn't recommend using more than two or three weapon types at any given time.

[Koniving]

Horseman, on 23 February 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

Velocity nodes in the skill tree + targeting computer for velocity buffs.

Not sure if velocity would be the issue of hitting anything with a Gauss Rifle. The LBX-2 also goes the same speed and yet he's said in the past he enjoys them.

Figure it'd be an issue with mechanics.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Koniving, on 23 February 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

Not sure if velocity would be the issue of hitting anything with a Gauss Rifle. The LBX-2 also goes the same speed and yet he's said in the past he enjoys them.

Figure it'd be an issue with mechanics.

If some one rushes me and I am armed with LBX-2s, I will fire all of the ACs at them plus support weapons like an ERPPC. If you rush me and I am armed with Gauss Rifles I will most likely not even have time to charge them but will defer to accessory weapons.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Horseman, on 23 February 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

Velocity nodes in the skill tree + targeting computer for velocity buffs.

With all due respect, Gauss rifle already have a baseline of 2000 meter/s, even heavy gauss has 1500 meter/s. If anyone needs velocity nodes or even the velocity boost of a targeting computer, he/she should skip gauss (and ballistics in general) altogether.

Fairly certain it is not the velocity but the chargeup mechanic in combination with the leading of the target (and laserburn combination).

[Koniving]

So, pretty much a firing mechanics issue. (The try to shoot while panicking and the guns won't shoot because they aren't charged all the way or charged too much issue.)

Used to have it a lot, too.

To deal with it I began resorting to a secondary class of close range weaponry, typically MGs or small lasers. (In fact I have the same on my LBX2 builds). The idea is if they are too close, their armor is already quite weakened; thus you just need that little bit of extra damage to finish them. Either way the backups are hitscan, easy to manage, and can do that last little bit of damage in a pinch. Since their introduction, ER smalls and Light MGs have somewhat replaced my backups for Gauss Rifles.

Your own choice of backup weapon should depend on what you prefer. If you can spare the tonnage (I usually can't), little is more effective than MPL. As such SPLs are usually my choice. If I wasn't so **** about symmetry I'd probably just do 1 MPL instead of 2 SPL.

(The reason I suggest pulse lasers as opposed to standard lasers is the low duration, allowing you to fire, get the damage in quickly, and do whatever it is you must do [relocate, steer, twist, hit someone else, etc.] while the lasers start recharging.

This video isn't meant to showcase skills or anything, just a difference between third person crosshairs taking your mech's movement into account while first person's crosshair ignores your mech completely... but as it happens my Gauss Rifles are backed with MGs and they do get used. Action begins abruptly at 1:20+. (Side note: Actually gameplay's pretty abysmal in this video, just don't have anything else demonstrating the backup while using Gauss. But we basically know what backup weapons and their use means. So here's a video when Gauss didn't have the charge mechanic...and I actually knew how to aim (you'll see what I mean) as consolation for that bad gameplay [again the focus of that video wasn't gameplay])
(Note: Second video's also meant to be a joke... back then hit registration was just awful so you had to aim way ahead of targets to actually do damage; many times I'll aim at a righ torso and hit a left arm.....)

Edited by Koniving, 23 February 2018 - 02:59 PM.

[Hobbles v]

Try playing a mech built around one type of weapon system. Say your direwolf with lasers missles and lbxs. Instead just run a bunch of autocannons and nothing else. You will find it so much easier to aim.

Edited by Hobbles v, 23 February 2018 - 03:02 PM.