415 replies to this topic

[kuma8877]

Interesting that you get so flustered, even though I haven't said whether I am for or against your proposal. I'm just pointing out potential pitfalls. I didn't assume people will leave, I said specifically there would be backlash. And there WILL be. Some will leave, some will stay. You are assuming people will come back in droves and stick around just because of a switch to 8v8 without any other supporting moves to accompany the change. Without supporting upgrades to offset the downgrade in player count, the greater gaming community WILL see MWO as failing. What's your solution to that? What's your solution if you lose 12v12 qp players, and a good chunk of your 8v8 come back players don't stay, because nothing other than player count has changed? and you end up with a large net loss of players and paying customers? Then what?

[kuma8877]

Imperius, on 11 March 2018 - 12:24 PM, said:

Apparently your rose tinted glasses ignored many people from the performance crowd. Don’t worry I’ll be quoting many posts back from 2013 when this feature became live. I’m far from banned it only lasted a day or so. I don’t see what point you’re trying to make other than attacking me.

Edit: I took a look at your stats and it’s clear as day why you want to keep 12v12. You’re afraid you lose what little wins you have because someone that carries got stuck with you and won it for you.

And do I get to stat shame you because mine are better than yours? Don't be petty.

[Imperius]

kuma8877, on 11 March 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

And do I get to stat shame you because mine are better than yours? Don't be petty.

Stat shame away. What’s petty is his personal attacks. I gave him a few passes. Now I’ll just be a ****.

Edited by Imperius, 11 March 2018 - 12:44 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

What's your solution if you lose 12v12 qp players, and a good chunk of your 8v8 come back players don't stay, because nothing other than player count has changed? and you end up with a large net loss of players and paying customers? Then what?

whats your solution if people who want 8v8 quit because the game stays 12v12?

75% of players who voted in the poll said they wanted 8v8...

why is it okay to ignore what a 75% majority wants? but ignoring a 25% minority suddenly isnt okay? youre not really making sense.

honestly anyone who hasnt quit the game by now, isnt going to quit over something trivial like 12v12 going back to 8v8. PGI needs to side with the majority on this one. Its what will make the most people happy.

certainly theres no reason we cant try 8v8 and if it doesnt work out bring back 12v12...

Edited by Khobai, 11 March 2018 - 12:56 PM.

[kuma8877]

Imperius, on 11 March 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

Stat shame away. What’s petty is his personal attacks. I gave him a few passes. Now I’ll just be a ****.

I'd rather not. I'd prefer if you'd answer the issues I proposed to going to 8v8 all willy nilly. It's easy to badger people into getting what you want when you don't have to be responsible for the consequences if what you push for doesn't work.

[Imperius]

kuma8877, on 11 March 2018 - 12:49 PM, said:

I'd rather not. I'd prefer if you'd answer the issues I proposed to going to 8v8 all willy nilly. It's easy to badger people into getting what you want when you don't have to be responsible for the consequences if what you push for doesn't work.

Season 12-15 is the last time I played it seems. It does matter. I have been very objective. Until people personally attack me. As in the past you get treated how you want to be treated.

Look me up... I’m not ashamed in the least.

[kuma8877]

Khobai, on 11 March 2018 - 12:46 PM, said:

whats your solution if people who want 8v8 quit because the game stays 12v12?

75% of players who voted in the poll said they wanted 8v8...

why is it okay to ignore what a 75% majority wants? but ignoring a 25% minority suddenly isnt okay? youre not really making sense.

And what's the actual sample size of your poll? How does that equate to the population at large? What happens if your poll is wrong....which has been known to happen from time to time (Presidential elections come to mind)? What are the plans to offset public perception that MWO is shrinking and thus dying?

Again, I never said I was against a move to 8v8, it may be the right direction in the long run, but it needs to be supported and thought thru otherwise MWO might get blindsided by unforeseen consequences.

And not to mention that we are dealing with PGI, so caution is advised when asking for things...

[Imperius]

kuma8877, on 11 March 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

And what's the actual sample size of your poll? How does that equate to the population at large? What happens if your poll is wrong....which has been known to happen from time to time (Presidential elections come to mind)? What are the plans to offset public perception that MWO is shrinking and thus dying?

Again, I never said I was against a move to 8v8, it may be the right direction in the long run, but it needs to be supported and thought thru otherwise MWO might get blindsided by unforeseen consequences.

And not to mention that we are dealing with PGI, so caution is advised when asking for things...

Those same things were said when 12v12 came and PGI didn’t even put up an official poll like the’re going to do for 8v8. People did leave lots of people that’s a fact. Many at the time couldn’t even handle the game due to the performance increase.

Yup there is a risk, or PGI could just not listen to the vocal majority left willing to still give feedback.

[Spare Parts Bin]

Why can't we have 1x1 or 4x4 for Solaris and 8x8 for old maps and 12x12 for new maps? Why is this hard?

[Khobai]

Quote

And what's the actual sample size of your poll?

the sample size isnt relevant.

because people who didnt vote forfeited their right to vote.

thats how democracy works. if you dont vote you cant complain about the outcome.

but 75% of people who actually cared enough to vote, said they prefer 8v8.

but the reality is most people who didnt vote, wont even care if 12v12 goes to 8v8. especially if theres a good reason behind it (which there is). its hardly a polarizing issue.

there are far better reasons to quit MWO than if quickplay is 8v8 instead of 12v12. No one is gonna quit over that lmao.

Edited by Khobai, 11 March 2018 - 01:09 PM.

[kuma8877]

Imperius, on 11 March 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

Season 12-15 is the last time I played it seems. It does matter. I have been very objective. Until people personally attack me. As in the past you get treated how you want to be treated.

Look me up... I’m not ashamed in the least.

I don't think you should be. I'd rather not go down that road anyway, it's generally unfruitful. Personally, I'm just raising questions that could end badly for MWO if the change isn't taken seriously by the community or PGI.

[kuma8877]

Khobai, on 11 March 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

the sample size isnt relevant.

because people who didnt vote forfeited their right to vote.

thats how democracy works. if you dont vote you cant complain about the outcome.

but 75% of people who actually cared enough to vote, said they prefer 8v8.

but the reality is most people who didnt vote, wont even care if 12v12 goes to 8v8. especially if theres a good reason behind it (which there is). its hardly a polarizing issue.

there are far better reasons to quit MWO than if quickplay is 8v8 instead of 12v12. No one is gonna quit over that lmao.

But generally most people involved in forfeiting their vote are aware of that forfeiture and that there is a vote going on. Running a vote, but not having some way to inform the majority of the constituency the the vote is taking place sounds more like shady politics to me.

Again, the assumption that everything will be hunky dory, things will ONLY get better and no one could possibly think 8v8 is less fun than 12v12 and stop playing (without other supporting changes) is kinda a really big assumption to make. MWO could potentially hang in the balance if you're wrong or PGI can't\doesn't support the change properly. There are a lot of possible outcomes to this change and not all of them are good for MWO, despite what any of us thinks.

[Imperius]

kuma8877, on 11 March 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

I don't think you should be. I'd rather not go down that road anyway, it's generally unfruitful. Personally, I'm just raising questions that could end badly for MWO if the change isn't taken seriously by the community or PGI.

And we're not? All I’ve ever done is try to better MWO.

[kuma8877]

Imperius, on 11 March 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

And we're not? All I’ve ever done is try to better MWO.

Did I say that? Pretty sure that I didn't. I don't doubt the integrity of your intent, just that there are outlier conditions that should be vigorously discussed rather than assumed if an 8v8 change is to be really successful.

[Imperius]

kuma8877, on 11 March 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

Did I say that? Pretty sure that I didn't. I don't doubt the integrity of your intent, just that there are outlier conditions that should be vigorously discussed rather than assumed if an 8v8 change is to be really successful.

Ok let me rephrase.

What was so good about 12v12? So much has/was cut out of MWO just to make it semi-acceptable.

I mean I can go the other route I tried to take and that was moving MWO to Unreal 4. I stopped that push because, well I did get what I wanted and that was MW5 w/Co-OP on Unreal 4 with no pvp. Sadly not all the mechs transfer though.

[kuma8877]

Imperius, on 11 March 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

Ok let me rephrase.

What was so good about 12v12? So much has/was cut out of MWO just to make it semi-acceptable.

I mean I can go the other route I tried to take and that was moving MWO to Unreal 4. I stopped that push because, well I did get what I wanted and that was MW5 w/Co-OP on Unreal 4 with no pvp. Sadly not all the mechs transfer though.

Some of the enjoyment of 12v12 comes from the simple fact that there are just more people playing, more things to shoot at, more things going on....just MOAR. Is it right or wrong? Who knows, fun is subjective, but some people prefer more rather than less. Look at how the community responds to nerfs... now think about public perception.

In the case of game performance, we are moving to 64bit only clients soon and that could help with stabilizing 12v12 (if it were to stay as is) by bringing up the average expected capabilities of most users. There's a lot of room there for improvement already (if PGI is willing to hire better engineers in Cryengine to take advantage).

Actually, I think most of MWO's current issues could be solved by hiring sufficiently skilled CE engineers to un-spaghetti our current code base to make it more efficient to work in and thus fully realize ideas without compromise. I think commitments like that by PGI, would go way further than player match # changes. I'd personally prefer they work towards fleshing out completely their old pillars while cleaning up the code to make it run good and look good while doing it with as many players as is comfortable (with corresponding modes/assets to make it work obviously).

MWO 2.0 on UE could still be a thing.... just think baby steps. MW5 is half the journey already. I'd keep pushing for that.

[Imperius]

Not a fan of nerfs myself. I bring up performance because how many did we already lose? I haven’t used 32bit. It won’t change the performance for me. It’s annoying to watch the FPS dip hard when the other teams death ball gets in your draw distance. Don’t even need scouts!

I’m all for shooting more and doing less damage. Essentially I’m ok with a nerf to increase TTK, but not at the sacrifice of not shooting because that’s actually boring.

Heat increases and heat maps are just junk.
Ammo never got scaled properly. Hence Laser vomit.
More targets meant you had to carry more ammo if you wanted to use ballistics. No the extra people don’t pull their weight. They are the filler added to complete the 12v12 requirement.

I mean you can argue more is better. I’ll counter with quality over quantity.

Edited by Imperius, 11 March 2018 - 02:17 PM.

[Khobai]

well you could easily increase ammo per ton by 33% to compensate for 12v12. so thats not too big of a deal.

where 12v12 fails is that it promotes deathballing and gunline play above everything else. It weakens every tactic that isnt deathballing. it makes harassment and flanking weaker. it makes brawling weaker. lights and mediums are also weaker. etc...

the gameplay was far more dynamic when it was 8v8. 12v12 has made things incredibly stagnant.

Edited by Khobai, 11 March 2018 - 02:30 PM.

[Imperius]

Khobai, on 11 March 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

well you could easily increase ammo per ton by 33% to compensate for 12v12. so thats not too big of a deal.

where 12v12 fails is that it promotes deathballing and gunline play above everything else. It weakens every tactic that isnt deathballing. it makes harassment and flanking weaker. it makes brawling weaker. lights and mediums are also weaker. etc...

the game was far more dynamic when it was 8v8.

I agree totally I just bring up ammo because it’s been 5 years and that still hasn’t been fixed. Even if we followed Paul’s philosophy of “micro changes” we should be at 200% ammo.

[kuma8877]

Khobai, on 11 March 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

well you could easily increase ammo per ton by 33% to compensate for 12v12. so thats not too big of a deal.

where 12v12 fails is that it promotes deathballing and gunline play above everything else. It weakens every tactic that isnt deathballing. it makes harassment and flanking weaker. it makes brawling weaker. lights and mediums are also weaker. etc...

the game was far more dynamic when it was 8v8.

But how much of that is due directly to map/gamemode design rather than player count per match? When spawns, objectives and thusly the paths take to and from don't change, there's not much reason to go sightseeing and utilize all of a map's features to complete the objective. I think concentrating here could give better and more varied/fun results than simply reduced player count can. I'm not disagreeing with you that 8v8 could help, given our current situation with how modes work, but I think, manipulating the level above player #'s (modes and maps) could yield better results.