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Solaris Roll Out


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#1 Mechwarrior1441491

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 05:07 PM

So, if this new way to play the game is rolled out incomplete with years of potential work needing done on it before it's anything, will the game survive?

Can the player base survive another Faction Play disaster?

Will Solaris cater to the ultimate casual players like Faction war did, repeating a known mistake?

Should there be a hardcore league which makes damage and components loss permanent after the match, elevating the pirates who play it to the "Ace" status of player?


I miss the risk in Btech. That risk helped dictate the flow of fights more than any other feature as people weren't as willing to run their mech in for obliteration. Repair and Rearm was taken out of the main Quick play game. That's fine. Most of us can understand that. Solaris could bring it back for a special "Red Line League".

-Quick Play is the intro to MWO.

-Solaris is moderate difficulty as it steers the players more into personal tweaking of mechs in mechlab. More thought put into builds. No perma damage to components here.

-Different Solaris leagues to up the difficulty further with permanent damage. Permanent damage might bring back the Standard Engine workhorse.


I wish we would have seen something similar to What Blood Bowl did where players had complete control over making their own personal leagues, because we all know that the best campaigns and tournaments ever done for MWO were organized and rolled out by the players.

I feel that with the epidemic level of survival games and full loot penalties, the status quo gamer is more used to advanced levels of inventory management and personal risk. Get those risk gamers back to MWO.

Bring the honour back into Btech where your opponent begs you not to torso out his engine and since he fought well, you leg him instead.


Lets see where this goes.

#2 vettie

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 05:31 PM

I liked rearm and refit, altho I think the implementation was, let's say, not the greatest.

It introduced a bit more thought into battles because you COULD lose CBills in a match that you won.

Now it would be hard to introduce R & R because so many players have large inventories and hundreds of millions CBills..

I would like to see something like this for QP and Solaris 7 (FW would have a slightly different set of rules, but basically the same such as loyalists repair cost could partially be covered by the House. Same for Clans)

1- If you lose a weapon and you have one in inventory, your inventory is reduced to replace it plus an amount of CBills for the labour involved to replace.

2, If you lose a weapon and do not own a replacement, you must purchase replacement (if you still want that weapon equipped, or substitute a different weapon if not) plus pay labour costs for the repair/replacement.

3. In case 1 or 2 above, the mech must stay in the lab for some amount of time (tbd) and another mech must be used while the initial mech is in repair state. Repair times would be cumulative.

4. If the owner elects not to replace lost components, he/she may take the mech back into combat but at a reduced efficiency. Engines, obviously, must be replaced, but may operate at a slower rate depenfing on how many 'hits' it has taken.

5. If a mech is destroyed in combat ALL repairs must be made before that mech can be re-used.

etc, etc....

Edited by vettie, 15 March 2018 - 05:34 PM.


#3 SeventhSL

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 05:44 PM

Good question.

When Solaris is rolled out there is bound to be a lot of blood and tears. A lot of T1 players will get their self perception smashed by the players who are actually T1 quality. They can't blame their team mates anymore so it will hit hard. There will also be crazy amounts of cheese. The only thing I'll say for sure is that there will be a lot of salt regardless of how good PGI's first implementation is.

As for long term end game content... yer sure I'll play Solaris regularly but it is not going to hold my attention like a good implementation of FW would. For me the Battletech universe is about big stompy robots and the clash of the great houses and Clans. Things like Solaris and Mercs seam like such side shows by comparison but if you played nothing but the computer games you'd think that was all the universe had to offer.

Ultimately I think Solaris will attract the same small competitive group of people. I can not see it swelling the population of MWO over the long term. I certainly don't see players who don't like competitive play, with a team to hide behind, suddenly develop a tast for it solo.

Edited by SeventhSL, 15 March 2018 - 05:53 PM.


#4 oldradagast

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 05:45 PM

View Postvettie, on 15 March 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

I liked rearm and refit, altho I think the implementation was, let's say, not the greatest.

It introduced a bit more thought into battles because you COULD lose CBills in a match that you won.



Why, exactly, would I want to play a GAME where even if I win, I could still lose in what matters?

I am so tired of people wanting games to "suck like real life" or whatever the justification is for desiring this type of game play. You are 1 person out of 12, and your ability to carry the team is limited. More often than not, the actions of other people are going to determine if you win or lose - why also heap punishment on top of that with a net loss in cbills?

As for Solaris, if it is rolled out badly, it'll deal a blow to the game, yes. Sadly, a proper rollout I doubt will do much to help. The well is empty - there's no hidden reserve of people who have been dying to play Battletech in a PvP game, but who were specifically waiting for Solaris vs. all the other deathmatch modes we already have.

Edited by oldradagast, 15 March 2018 - 05:46 PM.


#5 vettie

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 05:54 PM

View Postoldradagast, on 15 March 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:


Why, exactly, would I want to play a GAME where even if I win, I could still lose in what matters?




I did not say I wanted it. i mentioned how the implementation was not the greatest. What I said was I liked rearm refit (not the implementation). I agree, losing cash is no fun. What i said was that is the way it WAS done by using past tense verbage.

Take away what you want but dont put words in my mouth.

#6 Mechwarrior1441491

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 08:22 PM

View Postoldradagast, on 15 March 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:


Why, exactly, would I want to play a GAME where even if I win, I could still lose in what matters?

I am so tired of people wanting games to "suck like real life" or whatever the justification is for desiring this type of game play. You are 1 person out of 12, and your ability to carry the team is limited. More often than not, the actions of other people are going to determine if you win or lose - why also heap punishment on top of that with a net loss in cbills?

As for Solaris, if it is rolled out badly, it'll deal a blow to the game, yes. Sadly, a proper rollout I doubt will do much to help. The well is empty - there's no hidden reserve of people who have been dying to play Battletech in a PvP game, but who were specifically waiting for Solaris vs. all the other deathmatch modes we already have.


So play the newb/regular leagues. Let people who actually want some thought in their games play the harder leagues. It isn't an insult.

This is what I see happening....a lot. People running head first into each other. Dying. Repeating. New matches. The same. Also, why should you get the same reward for winning a match you were ripped apart and barely won, compared to a match you played with skill and came out mostly intact? Remember, people sponsor your arena butts and you don't get profit if your mech is a disaster after every match.

That risk helps dictate the flow of battle and opens the mechlab to new builds. Standard engine for example. No reason to have mechs with the best ultralights. Add in permanent loss to equipment locations and you are suddenly looking at standards as your best choice going into risky situations, like, most brawlers are in every match.

There are lots of reasons why risk play is beneficial. Also, again, refer to faction warfare. Bent and designed for casuals. Died because of casuals.

Repair and refit would only work in a grand strategic community warfare type game OR as a hardcore league for Solaris. Original concept for the game was that players MAY have to play matches in damaged mechs because of repair and rearm. Again, that kind of thing only works when supply on a strategic map comes in play. Units out of supply stuck behind lines etc.

It isn't sucking the fun out of the game if that is the way its supposed to be played. You go into a strategic warfare game KNOWING it is going to cost you credits. Hopefully you break even and everyone is torching millions of C-bills against each other.

What's the alternative? Growing a bank account with nothing to spend it on? Ya. Lots of fun. More mechs. The end game of MWO has turned into people not playing at all. That is MWO end game.


Also, Solaris could make a Solaris Currency as a work around for all the millions kicking around. That is how you repair your mechs damaged in Solaris or buy/use any other solaris feature. If you drop in quickplay, the mech isn't damaged.

They could make an conversion rate of regular c-bill to "solaris bucks." in favour of Solaris bucks.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 15 March 2018 - 08:46 PM.


#7 Davegt27

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 08:22 PM

OP I disagree about most of your points

my long typed response has been sent to file 13

PGI did ban flamers and consumables

do you think PGI listens to casuals or pugs well think again

the try hards got those items banned

#8 arcana75

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 08:46 PM

Gonna take flak for this, but I feel PGI should discard FP Siege mode entirely, and use Solaris 7's mechanics to put planets on wager, as the top tier reward. I think in lore, the Clans have this thing where everything is bet on a 1v1 match between 2 top pilots forget the name of it, batchall or something like that.

It doesn't have to be 1v1 either, could be 2v2, 3v3, 4v4. As top tier players work their way up the reward ladders, the penultimate prize every season is a bunch of planets, 1 for each division's winner.

Scout mode could be changed to become like the Hunger Games where sponsors would give small boosters to their champions while in-game, so based on your sponsor's Scouting outcomes your champions could use a radar sweep or jammer while in the match, on demand. Therefore the rest of the non-Solaris population who still want to get into the fun, don't really have to be Solaris 7 competitors or mere spectators, but rather contribute to their corporate overlords via this new Scout mode.

#9 Mechwarrior1441491

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 08:55 PM

Not having an honor system and having Clans using C-bills was perhaps the worst betrayal this game has ever done to the IP. Why? because it was probably too hard and they had no concept of how to implement it, despite probably years of people dumping advice on their forums.

If solaris is a little more colourful quick play but 1v1 2v2, it is half way in the dust bin.


Interesting thing about certain realities, you don't have to agree with them to be true.

I'm glad those items aren't in Solaris. People relying on Alpha madness and coolshots to feel good about themselves.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 15 March 2018 - 09:00 PM.


#10 PocketYoda

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 09:11 PM

View PostMechwarrior1441491, on 15 March 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

So, if this new way to play the game is rolled out incomplete with years of potential work needing done on it before it's anything, will the game survive?

Can the player base survive another Faction Play disaster?

No..

View PostMechwarrior1441491, on 15 March 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

Will Solaris cater to the ultimate casual players like Faction war did, repeating a known mistake?

If they don't no one will play it..
Casuals do not want to be farmed by elites so they will not go there, The casual population is the majority, if they do not use it it will be a failure and very likely end the game over a short time.

Edited by Samial, 15 March 2018 - 09:12 PM.


#11 Davegt27

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 10:07 PM

View PostMechwarrior1441491, on 15 March 2018 - 08:55 PM, said:

Not having an honor system and having Clans using C-bills was perhaps the worst betrayal this game has ever done to the IP. Why? because it was probably too hard and they had no concept of how to implement it, despite probably years of people dumping advice on their forums.

If solaris is a little more colourful quick play but 1v1 2v2, it is half way in the dust bin.


Interesting thing about certain realities, you don't have to agree with them to be true.

I'm glad those items aren't in Solaris. People relying on Alpha madness and coolshots to feel good about themselves.



it seems to be a thing to villainize one side or the other

it is also a mistake to think this is a battle tech game
it is more of a computer experience sort of like Las Vegas is not gambling its entertainment



#12 Mechwarrior1441491

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 10:21 PM

View PostSamial, on 15 March 2018 - 09:11 PM, said:

No..

If they don't no one will play it..
Casuals do not want to be farmed by elites so they will not go there, The casual population is the majority, if they do not use it it will be a failure and very likely end the game over a short time.


Are you guys actually paying attention to what is being said? There can be different leagues and divisions. If there aren't I'd be very surprised. If everyone is the same league, say the starter league, they will most certainly get farmed. Absolutely get farmed. There is nothing wrong in having hardcore leagues for those people who want a little more out of it without a ton of extra coding and dev work.

With the logic of, "if they don't cater to casuals, no one will play.", I claim BS. They did that for Faction and they still didn't play. Any game which tips the scale to casuals over advanced play tanks on itself. Balancing an entire game against someone who plays 2 hours a week over someone who glues themselves to it whenever they can is silly if you are trying to actually make a good game and not out for a quick cash grab and then wash your hands of it.

casuals have quick play. That's about all they can handle. They don't like to coordinate with others (for the most part) and don't like using voice comms, on the average.

SO, have regular Solaris and then have hardcore league. This doesn't effect casuals at all. In fact, it will keep the better players away from them which is obviously what they want. Mind you, they won't get all that better because they aren't being constantly challenged, learning from more advanced players so they plateau regarding their skill level.

If people didn't like a challenge in gaming, there wouldn't be 30k active people on EVE right now. Different game, but principles of gaming which challenge the player base are more rewarding an experience, thereby keep people playing and coming back to play due to game commitment.

PGI had an opportunity to create a full mechwarrior and strategic Btech experience, went the easy road, tanking faction warfare, which is a shame.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 15 March 2018 - 10:24 PM.


#13 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 10:25 PM

It will be minimal and barebone, but I think Solaris will be pretty popular. It will not attract the FW crowd though.

#14 Mechwarrior1441491

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 10:38 PM

FW crowd. Sort of contradicting. They are certainly not a crowd anymore. Posted Image Afterbirth seems about right.

Edited by Mechwarrior1441491, 15 March 2018 - 10:38 PM.


#15 Bud Crue

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 01:59 AM

View PostMechwarrior1441491, on 15 March 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

So, if this new way to play the game is rolled out incomplete with years of potential work needing done on it before it's anything, will the game survive?
...
Lets see where this goes.


No. We are about to have a significant drop in population as many in the casual nostalgic and lorehole crowds are about to flee MWO for the pretense of immersion offered by HBS's BT game. Despite the FPS fans' assertions that these folks will return when they get bored; most won't. The comfort of playing BT over and over and "winning" will be far more enticing to this part of the community than coming back to this PVP FPS where they have suffered beat down after beat down for years.

This will be occurring at the same time Solaris drops and where this part of the community's lack of FPS skill will be made crystal clear, and which may encourage that migration to even a greater degree.

Consider also: that the aforementioned migration plus Solaris dropping (regardless of its quality) is going to hit the wait times for the rest of the non-Solaris MWO game modes. Now as shocking as this may be to PGI: but for the last several years many folks who play this game and who have been drawn to it, do so because it is, at its root, a team based game. They won't care to play Solaris as more than an occasional novelty. But Solaris and the loss of the BT folks are going to impact wait times in the non-Solaris modes and some of these team players are going to get real tired, real quick of the inevitable longer wait times and decide that it is "time for a break"; many of these folks will not return.

If Solaris isn't an out of the park hit, then more than just the casuals, nostalgic, lorehole, team players, will leave too.
Consider: If PGI's new 'while balance between chassis is nearly perfect but for some reason we need mech divisions' divisions is bad then 1-2 mechs from each division will utterly dominate leading to stagnant game play and boredom real quick, that no amount of "would you like to buy a mech pack" will alleviate. If the new elo based MM fails to match players of fairly equal skill then the game will push away a good chunk of the remaining "I hate getting stomped" population as well. These folks may return to the other modes, but with the loss of population via BT and those playing Solaris, the wait times may very well be intolerable for at least some of these Solaris refugees and rejects, and then the non-Solaris population enter into a feedback loop of growing loss.

The only way any of this can be avoided is if Solaris is such a big hit that it actually draws appreciable numbers back into MWO and the immediate losses to BT are offset by some renewed interest in the overall IP that draws some folks into giving MWO a try. Without that level of success, I fear that the current trend of gradual population loss will accelerate. If Solaris is outright bad, then MWO may very well be screwed.

(Hey, will ya look at that 8000 posts. I really wish I didn't care so much about this game.)

#16 Black Ivan

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 02:46 AM

With about the release of the Battletech startegy game MWO will face a drop of players.

#17 Mystere

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 03:07 AM

View PostSeventhSL, on 15 March 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

When Solaris is rolled out there is bound to be a lot of blood and tears. A lot of T1 players will get their self perception smashed by the players who are actually T1 quality have been deliberately staying under the radar while sharpening their knives.


FTFY.

Terrible bloodletting is coming. Posted Image


View PostThorn Hallis, on 15 March 2018 - 10:25 PM, said:

It will be minimal and barebone, but I think Solaris will be pretty popular. It will not attract the FW crowd though.


For a few weeks or so, maybe. But after people come to the brutal realization that they're just being farmed, they're going to run with their tail between their legs.

However, 12/24+ free-for-all fights are a different matter altogether.

Edited by Mystere, 16 March 2018 - 03:21 AM.


#18 Tom Sawyer

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 03:07 AM

View PostSeventhSL, on 15 March 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

Good question.

When Solaris is rolled out there is bound to be a lot of blood and tears. A lot of T1 players will get their self perception smashed by the players who are actually T1 quality. They can't blame their team mates anymore so it will hit hard. There will also be crazy amounts of cheese. The only thing I'll say for sure is that there will be a lot of salt regardless of how good PGI's first implementation is.

As for long term end game content... yer sure I'll play Solaris regularly but it is not going to hold my attention like a good implementation of FW would. For me the Battletech universe is about big stompy robots and the clash of the great houses and Clans. Things like Solaris and Mercs seam like such side shows by comparison but if you played nothing but the computer games you'd think that was all the universe had to offer.

Ultimately I think Solaris will attract the same small competitive group of people. I can not see it swelling the population of MWO over the long term. I certainly don't see players who don't like competitive play, with a team to hide behind, suddenly develop a tast for it solo.


And you will also see the META BEAST rear its ugly head even harder. As the comp games have pointed out and this game unfortunately as a whole players will drive those mechs that can do quick massive alphas to cripple or kill tier opponent. Their will be no death pits, no traps, ect ect. I fear it will quickly stagnant as the only way to win will be bring X mech to do Y damage.

But as Bud pointed out a true lore based tactical game is 2 weeks away. And many of us are looking forward to a little death from above

#19 oldradagast

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 03:31 AM

View PostMechwarrior1441491, on 15 March 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:


So play the newb/regular leagues. Let people who actually want some thought in their games play the harder leagues. It isn't an insult.

This is what I see happening....a lot. People running head first into each other. Dying. Repeating. New matches. The same. Also, why should you get the same reward for winning a match you were ripped apart and barely won, compared to a match you played with skill and came out mostly intact? Remember, people sponsor your arena butts and you don't get profit if your mech is a disaster after every match.

That risk helps dictate the flow of battle and opens the mechlab to new builds. Standard engine for example. No reason to have mechs with the best ultralights. Add in permanent loss to equipment locations and you are suddenly looking at standards as your best choice going into risky situations, like, most brawlers are in every match.



"Opens the game to new builds" = you can't afford to play the builds you want, because you lose money, so you have play crummy builds that don't interest you. Sorry, that's not an improvement. This game is stale enough - forcing inferior builds on people because it's all they can afford is silly. It also further opens the gap between the high and low skilled players. These days, anyone can eventually grind up to any mech build - only their skill differentiates between them once the game begins. But if you create some game mode where only winners can earn enough for powerful builds, you create a snowball where the winners can just buy victory as they trash standard engine, cheap IS junk target mechs in some Clan or heavily customized IS meta mech.

People run into each other blindly and die not because "it still makes money" but because TTK is so miserably short and there's rarely any real flow or strategy in the game that "mash murder balls together" is all you get. One mistake is usually lethal or mission-kill worthy in this game, so it is not surprising if players just go out, guns blazing.

Edited by oldradagast, 16 March 2018 - 03:32 AM.


#20 Black Ivan

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 03:41 AM

Excatly. Solaris will even more force high Alpha buildts to kill the enemy as fast as possibel and push Mechs out of the game mode





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