88 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

Were there mechs that would be your last chance mechs for units down on their luck in the c-bills department? Curious to hear what the more desperate units would use.

[Metus regem]

The most desperate units use conventional vehicles, they are cheap, nasty and plentiful.

That being said, taking a Urbanmech out of urban combat smacks of desperation, it isn't really meant for open field warfare, it's meant for congested street fighting with short supply lines.

By the same token, something like a Marauder shouldn't be fighting in a city, so taking one in there smacks of desperation, as it lacks heatsinks, armour and close range firepower.

Clan side, the Hunchback IIC was a last chance at glory mech... next to no armour or ammo, but man does she pack a mean punch...

[MechaBattler]

I feel like the Vindicator would fit. In the sense that it was essentially made to be easily produced and saw such wide use. Plus it seemed a cheap support mech. But since they marked up Vindicator parts, subsequently snubbing foreign sales, it probably wouldn't be something most merc units would use. Did St Ives compact produce Vindicators? Perhaps they could have moved it commercially?

[Metus regem]

Vindies are actually rather decent in TT, at 45t it offers a lot of punch, a solid armour poper with the PPC and the LRM/5 to crit seek. And it could run really cool with 16 SHS in 3025 era play.

I know it sounds somewhat silly, but it really highlights how little MWO game play has to do with Battletech, I mean even a stock Warhammer 6R was enough to make an Atlas stop and weigh the risk / reward of engaging it. The Atlas would likely win, but it would take a ton of damage from the Warhammer, if not being destroyed by the Warhammer.

[MechaBattler]

Well there's a lack of consequence in this game. You don't really have to consider what fighting a mech will cost you. And everything is easily customized and upgraded. I'm curious to see if MW5 will impart that feeling and make cost effective mechs more important than alpha vomit meta mechs.

[jss78]

I think in general you'd start to bring in those 'mechs generally relegated to backwater militias and garrisons.

Urbies as line 'mechs instead of guard duty (the Capellans were notorious for doing this).

You'd overuse 20-tonner bug 'mechs. In lore they're ubiquitous, a good portion of all 'mechs, but not something you'd generally throw against heavier opposition -- unless it's all you have.

Stock Chargers.

And yeah, vehicles. First the good ones, and finally Scorpion light tanks.

[MechaBattler]

Is there a mech that is universally regarded as cheap and readily available?

[5th Fedcom Rat]

MechaBattler, on 21 March 2018 - 02:54 PM, said:

Is there a mech that is universally regarded as cheap and readily available?

If you're Davion in the era this game currently takes place in, that would be the Watchman: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Watchman

[Metus regem]

MechaBattler, on 21 March 2018 - 02:54 PM, said:

Is there a mech that is universally regarded as cheap and readily available?

Locus
Wasp
Stinger


Those three chassis account for something close to 50% of all mechs in the IS in 3025.... and I put them in order of most common to least.

[MechaBattler]

Reading throw some mech profiles now that I'm home. I see a lot of references to 'off the shelf' in regards to equipment and weapons. Another facet that will hopefully make it's way into MW5. One facet I love about BT is that you have ancient machines that can still see a lot of life throw weapon and equipment upgrades. Reminds of the Super Shermans the Israeli Defense Forces use.

[Metus regem]

MechaBattler, on 21 March 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

Reading throw some mech profiles now that I'm home. I see a lot of references to 'off the shelf' in regards to equipment and weapons. Another facet that will hopefully make it's way into MW5. One facet I love about BT is that you have ancient machines that can still see a lot of life throw weapon and equipment upgrades. Reminds of the Super Shermans the Israeli Defense Forces use.

That's the whole thing in BT, to have a customized machine marked you out as VERY wealthy and powerful. Point in example I had a character spend nearly a year in game and close to 20 million C-bills in customizing his WHM-6R when I was able to both find a factory that could refit it with an Endo Steel chassis and finding enough Endo Steel in the first place.

[MechaBattler]

Metus regem, on 21 March 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

That's the whole thing in BT, to have a customized machine marked you out as VERY wealthy and powerful. Point in example I had a character spend nearly a year in game and close to 20 million C-bills in customizing his WHM-6R when I was able to both find a factory that could refit it with an Endo Steel chassis and finding enough Endo Steel in the first place.

What about stuff like swapping out a medium laser to medium pulse laser? Assuming you drop a ton elsewhere. How hard would that have been?

[Metus regem]

MechaBattler, on 21 March 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

What about stuff like swapping out a medium laser to medium pulse laser? Assuming you drop a ton elsewhere. How hard would that have been?

First you have to find the field kit for it, then you need your techs to do a good enough job to not mess up.... still time consuming and expensive.

[Karl Streiger]

MechaBattler, on 21 March 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

What about stuff like swapping out a medium laser to medium pulse laser? Assuming you drop a ton elsewhere. How hard would that have been?

depends on the ton you drop
there are rules for that - called refit kits. For general understanding I think a refit kit is similar to a ikea flatpack - you get your parts and a description and your tech does the best he can.
Of course a decent tech could fit a Medium Pulse laser, that was supposed to be mounted on a JaegerMech, into a Warhammer. But speaking of flatpacks it could be similar to mounting your wardrobe into your kitchen next to the oven - that it might fit doesn't meant its a good idea.

What I think is interesting - the K2 Catapult is strictly spoken almost a simple field refit of the C1. Simple because a PPC weights as much as a LRM15 with the same number of crits.
The usual swap of AC5 to PPC is also a field refit (so rule of thumb when it has the same mass or less and consumes the same number of crits or less - it could be managed in the field.
Mounting Heatsinks or stowing ammunition is nothing you do in the field - you need a maintenance area for this.

---

because it was mentioned that people should get an idea how expensive Mechs are - when there was RnR and you did not cheat the system (a student would have been able to see what was the issue) you had a time where I did run a Commando because in case of a defeat I usually had some gain even when the Mech was destroyed. My exensive Xl driven Dragon and Atlas were only used when we played in group - when the defeat was unlikely.

But instead of making the RnR system into something unique (as said no rocket science included) - PGI simple droped it.... sounds familiar....

[MeiSooHaityu]

I get a feeling that mechs were so rare and valuable in the Inner Sphere, that there really wasn't a "Last Chance" mech per se, more like...This is my Ancestral Mech, I better keep it from being destroyed .

I suppose if there was a last chance mech, one to replace mechs in a decimated Lance or Company, I'd say maybe a Commando? It's relatively cheap and yet maintains good firepower. It has it's downsides (it doesn't jump and isn't terribly fast), but it is potentially the right mix of combat effective and low cost (assuming the ammo isn't going to put you in the poor house).

Now, as for Clanners, I have always seen the Hunchback IIC as a last chance mech. It isn't about running out of money as much as it is about old MechWarriors taking one last chance for a bit of glory on the battlefield before being destroyed...

"Its meager six tons of armor, coupled with paltry ammunition and lack of long-range weapons, led Inner Sphere observers to conclude that this 'Mech was a last-ditch effort for failed warriors to die with glory. In truth, the assignment of a Hunchback IIC was essentially a death sentence. Warriors given this machine were not expected to survive their next battle." - Sarna.net

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 22 March 2018 - 02:19 AM.

[Koniving]

If there's only one opponent, I'd take my chances on foot. If given a choice, vehicles can really put a mech through their paces, two 25 ton tanks can make a formidable match against a tabletop Shadowhawk.

If I have to go with a mech, gotta say either a Centurion, Wolverine, or if the cbills are really tight, time to see if we could scrounge up enough parts to make a Wolfman, which is a Rifleman and Wolverine slapped together.


Not quite as cool as the Warhammer / Rifleman frankenmech, but quite doable.

[Koniving]

(To clarify... I have on a few instances in Megamek performed grand theft mech and killed pilots with the autorifle from a distance. It is risky as hell but well worth the reward if you can do it on your own terms [set a trap]. Makeshift salvage is a big part of the bt universe so makeshift frankenmechs are as common as good techs...which isn't that common but sufficient enough to pull one with some big risks of failure. Though from experience if given the choice between a 100 ton mech and a 100 ton tank I would take the tank every time.)
If on a serious budget... I have come to enjoy the Thorn or most 20 tonnes. If com at isn't the primary goal of a mission, Flea 14 for me, that 15 ton bugger is awesome! If in scenarios against pirates or as pirates... I have a few civilian designs I have worked on. Love commercial armor. Pales compared to military grade against penetration but the amount you get is almost double per ton.

[Brain Cancer]

It's definitely the original "bugs"- the Locust, Wasp, and Stinger.

Massively produced, massively salvaged, and plentiful in boneyards across the Inner Sphere where locals often cobble together somewhat tempermental but functional "new" units on the cheap.

But armored vehicles are much, much, much more common than Battlemechs. You're far more likely to find a Vedette or Hetzer or missile carriers than even the worst-luck Battlemech by multiple orders of magnitude.

[Metus regem]

Brain Cancer, on 22 March 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

It's definitely the original "bugs"- the Locust, Wasp, and Stinger.

Massively produced, massively salvaged, and plentiful in boneyards across the Inner Sphere where locals often cobble together somewhat tempermental but functional "new" units on the cheap.

But armored vehicles are much, much, much more common than Battlemechs. You're far more likely to find a Vedette or Hetzer or missile carriers than even the worst-luck Battlemech by multiple orders of magnitude.

Not to mention that the Wasp and Stinger are both called out as having interchangeable parts...


Seriously though, if you want to give a mech a "code brown!" have a SRM carrier set up hidden in place in a city, just as a mech walks past it, pop out and let that mech eat 10xSRM/6 in the back...

Or my personal favorite, get 4 LRM carriers, put them on a hill behind two-three hex deep woods, place 4 SRM carriers in the woods and use 4 Warrior attack helicopters to spot for the LRM carriers... I promise you will give someone a bad time if they bring mechs against that.

[Karl Streiger]

Well - I really don't think that there are "Last Chance Mechs" - simple because each and every BattleMech is a unique and very expensive peace of technology - maybe some ICE driven industrial mechs with make shift armor and muzzle loaders exist - and could be used as - "last chance"

but usually its simpler to give a guy who fails on regular basis not any mech at all. The Mech you are piloting is also based on political aspects. When you are the prince of the FedSuns they gave you a Mech to bolster your ego - although you are only a mediocre mechpilot at best - but thanks to ClanTech you suddenly became almost invulnerable including GodMode Button.... so much to the Clans as superb pilots.....

---

Excuse the Anti Davion rambling.....

---

Sometimes its also prestige - Griffins for Steiner, Dragon for Kurita and others. Its absolutely possible that a excellent MechJockey with superb sniping skills is forced to pilot a Commando - were as his noble commanding officer (With issues to hit a barn) runs a WolfHound.... (although a switch of both would be optimum - the Setan MechKiller for the Sniper and the lock-on Missile for the bad-shot)