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Clan Fp Tonnage Increased


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#41 Spare Parts Bin

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 11:03 AM

View PostSmokeGuar, on 22 April 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

First off, "we" means KCOM, not your average casual Clan puggel. Your experience on balance is totally different than most of player base.
Secondly, balance during and after Tuk2 was way off, so this is not 1st time this has happened. Actually Clan side has not enjoyed advantage in long time, reason why IS took beating was that lot of active teams were on Clan side.


I agree, I have only seen two easy FP games since I returned. Wins are hard won and in no way guaranteed.

#42 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 11:31 AM

View PostSmokeGuar, on 22 April 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

First off, "we" means KCOM, not your average casual Clan puggel. Your experience on balance is totally different than most of player base.
Secondly, balance during and after Tuk2 was way off, so this is not 1st time this has happened. Actually Clan side has not enjoyed advantage in long time, reason why IS took beating was that lot of active teams were on Clan side.


That was the PRIMARY, not the only but the primary reason for the 265vs240 tonnage select since Dec 2016...And the IS map spoke for itself where Clans had gobbled up tons of IS real-estate.

PGI still has failed on most of the followups they said they were looking into, from providing the same benefits to isXL that the cXL/LFE has (surviving loss of one side torso, regardless of non-lethal penalties), among other things. As a reminder, IS components take up more space, heavier, thus reducing the weight saving benefits IS can utilize that Clan battlemechs (and many omni) enjoy.

#43 K O Z A K

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 11:34 AM

View PostMischiefSC, on 22 April 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

Except we were smashing IS non-stop before too. For the first time as Clans you couldn't just count on overwhelming firepower advantage and mobility to just let you walk over any/all opposition without having to strategize. There were circumstances where IS had a clear advantage wave 1 you had to deal with on some maps/modes, instead of going in to every drop as Clans knowing you had the advantage regardless.
Good thing they fixed that. Historically most Clan players flounce and quit the moment things are not stacked in their favor and we can't have that. Who will bring all the LRM TBRs?


an BCMC/Kcom/Evil group smashes just about anyone in FP regardless whether they play clan or IS (apart from top end comp teams who don't really play FP). I agree beating IS pugs with a strong clan group was easily achievable at 240. But with current balance I've seen average skilled IS groups stomp all over average skilled clan groups by simply smashing into them. It's literally the easiest team tactic in the game. I guess the same people that bring LRM Atlases for IS bring LRM TBRs for clan, not sure what point you were trying to make there. Honestly I haven't found the tonnage change to make any difference at all. If anything I'm glad that when I go IS I'll have more damage to farm, the tonnage discrepancy resulted in me doing on average 300-400 dmg less while playing IS.

#44 B L O O D W I T C H

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 12:19 PM

View PostSpare Parts Bin, on 22 April 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

I take it that you do not care for my loadout or something. Please elaborate.


Sorry bud, i thought that gif is pretty self-explanatory by now. I don't think that the loadout is any good. it's missing flamers, some maschineguns and a ppc.

#45 UnKnownPlayer

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 12:29 PM

OK so what i heard so far amounts to:

Clan were at a disadvantage previously.
But they weren't because before the 240 ton limit they could just rofl stomp and then at 240 they had to think some.
IS are OP because if they get a full organised group they can brawl clanners down.
But previously clan were OP because the mercs were on clan side and ran 12 mans.

So this is nothing to do with weight or balance but where the 12 mans are.

What I HAVE seen since the increase in weight for clanners is more clan pugs bringing assault LRM boats and stupid wastes of tonnage in heavy builds because they feel they can waste the tonnage safely. For mixed groups the increase in tonnage allowance has actually harmed clan effectiveness at the moment. Hopefully the meta will filter down to the people that CBA joining TS and it will balance back out, until then judgement is reserved.

Edited by UnKnownPlayer, 22 April 2018 - 12:30 PM.


#46 SmokeGuar

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 01:25 PM

Many things have changed during past 18 months. Clans lost big on engine desync, same goes on weapons nerfs. IS has lots of new mechs with many, many fine hard points. Active FW units are far more evenly distributed. Only thing that has not changed is tonnage.

On macro level, tonnage was one, easy, way to balance FW. Problem is, on individual level effects are far more complex. On player versus equal player, advantage has long been on IS side. This has led to bad blood on Clan side, both against PGI and IS activists. IS loyalists may have quit because they got run over by big units. Clan loyalists, and I know this on as first hand knowledge, quit because they felt they got run over by PGI.

Edited by SmokeGuar, 22 April 2018 - 01:25 PM.


#47 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 01:38 PM

Quote

This has led to bad blood on Clan side, both against PGI and IS activists. IS PUGS-NON Competitive groups loyalists may have quit because they got run over by big units. Clan PUGS-NON Competitive groups loyalists, and I know this on as first hand knowledge, quit because they felt they got run over by PGI.


Slight correction added PUG-NON Competitive groups and even with the normal semi-competitive units/pugs, such entities became discouraged/disinterested due to PGI lack of commitment and follow through on filling out CW/FW/FP... Even PGI naming convention continued to show their lack of interest.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 22 April 2018 - 01:39 PM.


#48 MischiefSC

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 02:20 PM

View PostSmokeGuar, on 22 April 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

First off, "we" means KCOM, not your average casual Clan puggel. Your experience on balance is totally different than most of player base.
Secondly, balance during and after Tuk2 was way off, so this is not 1st time this has happened. Actually Clan side has not enjoyed advantage in long time, reason why IS took beating was that lot of active teams were on Clan side.


Huh. Except The units were on Clan side because Clans were better. There was 1 strong IS team that played intermittently, a few mixed casual teams and that's it. Even after tonnage switched to strongly favor IS for tonnage - clans were still just overall better.

This idea that Units, the good units, just randomly play the disadvantaged side has always been silly.

A bunch of us were driven to IS side by sheer boredom with ghost drops a bit ago, but have largely come back. The Anni is the strongest assault in an overall sense on maps where mobility is irrelevant. That's 2 maps/modes. Every other weight class and role, with few exceptions, favors Clans at least a bit. Honestly you can run 12 LBKs anywhere and do really well. As a pug you've always had some super strong dropdeck options. It's even more telling for units - just more strategic options and better overall performance profile.

Clans didn't the tonnage but I won't complain. However for FW Clans are stronger even with the old tonnage limits. The difference is that IS has always had to play to strategy to win - the bar for success was always higher. So for Clans every time the bar gets closed to even they act like it's suddenly totally broken.

IS has always had to carefully build decks on a map by map basis for specific strats to have any chance. Not just have a hot and cold deck - maybe, but otherwise just run somethingmmid ramge, energy or ballistic or whatever, on Amy map and win by sheer firepower advantage.

View PostSmokeGuar, on 22 April 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

Many things have changed during past 18 months. Clans lost big on engine desync, same goes on weapons nerfs. IS has lots of new mechs with many, many fine hard points. Active FW units are far more evenly distributed. Only thing that has not changed is tonnage.

On macro level, tonnage was one, easy, way to balance FW. Problem is, on individual level effects are far more complex. On player versus equal player, advantage has long been on IS side. This has led to bad blood on Clan side, both against PGI and IS activists. IS loyalists may have quit because they got run over by big units. Clan loyalists, and I know this on as first hand knowledge, quit because they felt they got run over by PGI.


That's absolutely and co.pletely wrong. On an equal basis for FW Clans have been stronger almost universally for a long time. That's why units gravitated to Clans.

#49 SmokeGuar

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 02:33 PM

Units went to Clan because they wanted to attack.

A/ There were no planets to capture on Clan side, IS had them all.
B/ On old FW system units could select weather to attack or defend, most chose attack, for number of reasons.


Please, if you want to "fix" quote, do NOT fix original quote. People react badly when words are put to their mouth.

#50 MischiefSC

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 02:36 PM

.... Do you not get how the queue works? There's always planets to take on either side.

The IS could have captured existing Clan planets back to Pentagon worlds. I realized that's never even been close to happening but it was an option.

I don't touch quotes. I hit quote, then type my response under it. You edited your original post if anything is different.



#51 Spare Parts Bin

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 03:04 PM

View PostToha Heavy Industries, on 22 April 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:


Sorry bud, i thought that gif is pretty self-explanatory by now. I don't think that the loadout is any good. it's missing flamers, some maschineguns and a ppc.


That is your prerogative. Flamers do not work for me. The sum total of what you described sounds like a loadout for a Kit Fox. My Mad Cat MK2-B has twin UAC-5s,LMGs,MPLs,TC1,and CAP. You need to be faster than 51.5 kph to really get the benefit of MGs.

#52 SmokeGuar

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 03:47 PM

TO MischiefSC:

I was talking about past, not present. And yes, mercs actually captured Clan planets as IS, then switched to Clan and recaptured them and got lots of MC in process.

TO: Tarl Cabot:

Stop messing with my words.

#53 B L O O D W I T C H

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 04:19 PM

View PostSpare Parts Bin, on 22 April 2018 - 03:04 PM, said:

That is your prerogative. Flamers do not work for me. The sum total of what you described sounds like a loadout for a Kit Fox. My Mad Cat MK2-B has twin UAC-5s,LMGs,MPLs,TC1,and CAP. You need to be faster than 51.5 kph to really get the benefit of MGs.


Bud, i was just poking fun at you. Your daishi is what most would call a bracket build, it has a little bit of everything but it doesn't particulary does anything good. It might work for you and your tier (tier 5 is a magical place after all).
On that note, boy that is one hell of an armed uller.

#54 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 04:27 PM

View PostSpare Parts Bin, on 22 April 2018 - 03:04 PM, said:

That is your prerogative. Flamers do not work for me. The sum total of what you described sounds like a loadout for a Kit Fox. My Mad Cat MK2-B has twin UAC-5s,LMGs,MPLs,TC1,and CAP. You need to be faster than 51.5 kph to really get the benefit of MGs.


He's still yanking your chain. He is suggesting even more random weapons added on because your build is already a conglomeration of seemingly random weapons compared to the normal builds that consist of 2-3 weapons that easily fit into 2 firing groups that are specialized for one purpose. We call what you have a "Frankenbuild".


View PostMischiefSC, on 22 April 2018 - 02:20 PM, said:

Huh. Except The units were on Clan side because Clans were better. There was 1 strong IS team that played intermittently, a few mixed casual teams and that's it. Even after tonnage switched to strongly favor IS for tonnage - clans were still just overall better.

This idea that Units, the good units, just randomly play the disadvantaged side has always been silly.

A bunch of us were driven to IS side by sheer boredom with ghost drops a bit ago, but have largely come back. The Anni is the strongest assault in an overall sense on maps where mobility is irrelevant. That's 2 maps/modes. Every other weight class and role, with few exceptions, favors Clans at least a bit. Honestly you can run 12 LBKs anywhere and do really well. As a pug you've always had some super strong dropdeck options. It's even more telling for units - just more strategic options and better overall performance profile.

Clans didn't the tonnage but I won't complain. However for FW Clans are stronger even with the old tonnage limits. The difference is that IS has always had to play to strategy to win - the bar for success was always higher. So for Clans every time the bar gets closed to even they act like it's suddenly totally broken.

IS has always had to carefully build decks on a map by map basis for specific strats to have any chance. Not just have a hot and cold deck - maybe, but otherwise just run somethingmmid ramge, energy or ballistic or whatever, on Amy map and win by sheer firepower advantage.

That's absolutely and co.pletely wrong. On an equal basis for FW Clans have been stronger almost universally for a long time. That's why units gravitated to Clans.


Didn't units go Clan to avoid ghost drops? That's what I hear most of the time. There's more IS players from a mix of new players getting IS mechs for cheap (and then not knowing they need to upgrade them) and loads of old loyalists on IS, then a bunch of meta seekers playing IS for some rather EZ mode decks that can be made. So units looking to actually get some drops in can go over to Clan and insta drop vs IS. You basically need a unit to play well against IS since you need some good focus fire to take out their super high HP waves, and a pug team is just incapable of it. Units are in it for PROFIT, basically what gets them more matches, since they have a high win rate regardless of faction since there's many more pugs out there than units, so they'll willingly pick a side that is disadvantaged if it pays more doing it. Not to mention the higher health pools on IS side mean fatter paychecks for Clanners who can focus fire. Why would good units play the advantaged side if doing so means they earn half the money per hour because of longer queues and lower paychecks, not to mention the old contract bonuses all being 50% for the new clans added in while the best you can get on IS is about 40%?

Its not really *that* complex for IS tactics. You don't have to go super deep into the builds. You want a EZ steamroll deck just get two Annihilators, an Assassin, and a Commando/Javelin. If you're a unit you're going to win about 99% of your matches against PUGs if you have an ounce of cohesion. Against units just make sure you stick together well and whatever you do don't bring dual Hgauss, you'd be better off with UAC boats or AC5 boats, why bring a build known for 50 PPFLD at practically pointblank when you can compete with Clan alphas with a double tap from 2UAC10s+2UAC5s at range, a bit less alpha for a whole lot less heat and lower cooldowns and a boatload of health so your team can push in on them to take cover out of the equation.

Also don't forget about the Battlemaster + 3 Dragons combo. Dragons have exceptional hitboxes that show no CT at all from side view and you can deadside in them without too much hassle. They're a great asset.

Honestly I have 2 decks for each faction, one for extreme range and the other for closer ranges. I don't bother with brawlers when IS can just run heavy ballistic builds at mid range instead of closing to short range to put out about the same DPS with more spread.

#55 Davegt27

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 04:33 PM

you guys are not crying again

geezz give it a rest

#56 calmdawn

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 06:36 AM

There is a possibility that Solaris will show us total advantage of IS against Clans.

Right now Annihilators dominate Dire Wolfs of the same skills.

The question is: maybe should reverse tonnage - 240 to IS and 260 to Clans? Maybe Division restrictions are better than weight restrictions?

#57 Bishop Six

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 06:47 AM

View PostDavegt27, on 22 April 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

you guys are not crying again

geezz give it a rest

View Postcalmdawn, on 23 April 2018 - 06:36 AM, said:

There is a possibility that Solaris will show us total advantage of IS against Clans.

Right now Annihilators dominate Dire Wolfs of the same skills.

The question is: maybe should reverse tonnage - 240 to IS and 260 to Clans? Maybe Division restrictions are better than weight restrictions?


Ha, ha, ha....!

Anni is better than Direwolf? Lets nerf ALL IS... :D

trollololo

#58 naterist

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 07:17 AM

View PostBishop Six, on 23 April 2018 - 06:47 AM, said:



Ha, ha, ha....!

Anni is better than Direwolf? Lets nerf ALL IS... :D

trollololo


Just ignore all the kdk-3's fookin DOMINATING division 2, roflmao.

#59 Yondu Udonta

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:50 AM

View Postcalmdawn, on 23 April 2018 - 06:36 AM, said:

There is a possibility that Solaris will show us total advantage of IS against Clans.

Right now Annihilators dominate Dire Wolfs of the same skills.

The question is: maybe should reverse tonnage - 240 to IS and 260 to Clans? Maybe Division restrictions are better than weight restrictions?

Is this the FP part of the forums or the S7 part? You don't even know what's the respective tonnage for each side. Go play some FP before you join in this discussion.

#60 Spheroid

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:53 AM

The observed effect lies outside the stated goal, which was parity.

Posted Image





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