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Assault Mechs

assaults vs others

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#1 Amorous Weka

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 02:31 PM

Ok, reality check here and I just know there's going to be all the top tier leaders and who ever else who doesn't want to admit this responding with "git gud" "LTP" etc.

But.

Guess what tonnage classes I come up against with my medium to heavy mechs in the divisions that allow it........yup, 90-100 tons (generally atlas, king crab, annihilators, nightstars) it's pretty much a bingo game to guess which one of the previous mentioned I see pop from the lift. You can argue all you want about agility etc but the fact is that it comes down to tonnage differential and what that allows to be packed armour/armament/heatsink-wise and that directly effects how much immediate damage you suffer to a targeted zone that you terminally can't come back from regardless of agility.

In the end I saw the writing on the wall and just ran those mechs and hey!!!! guess what? yup, my wins went up straight away, I have now stopped S7 altogether when I saw players (new to S7 I guess) who repeated my mistakes of what mech to bring begin to exit the match in arena before even offered the chance at match end or straight out power down in arena as a statement of futility, I felt like such a POS for doing to others what I'd experienced and hated but kept at it to see how fast I could get from rank 1 to 2 (div2 or 3 from memory, with a KGC).

I believe from memory that my first match in S7 had something of a 40 ton difference? And frankly that's a huge advantage difference in firepower/armour, agility be damned when you get alpha'ed for most of your armour.

Poorly implemented PGI, and....... commence comments from git-gud'ers and LTP'ers but I'll stick to the rest of the game and avoid this poorly balanced idea, have fun with what I predict to be a match area soon to be populated by a diminishing circle of the same ppl who will know each other well and no others.

#2 Nesutizale

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 02:41 PM

I agree that the Divisions are poorly made up.

#3 Kravshera

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 02:47 PM

You're not too far off, on the other hand it should be easy to fix.. but it'll either require some new game features or total revamp of mach class system.

I put most of my effort in D3.. and good lord is it bad.
In the very vast majority of matches, i face a KGC wielding some combination of AC2/AC5 boats and that's about it.
They back up as far as they can and chain fire for the lulz.

No skill, no imagination, just stat-padding.. and PGI endorse this.

I've won most of my matches, think i'm up to 29 wins 23 losses or whatever.. so in most cases i even beat these pathetic KGC builds.. But PGI needs to address this really fast or S7 will die out.

It's Go Meta or Go Home. No creativity in builds, no flare, no imagination.. it's just a cookie cutter with more load time than play time as most fights last up to 1 minute and everything else is waiting/loading

Edited by Kravshera, 21 April 2018 - 02:47 PM.


#4 SLICKNIFTY

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 03:16 PM

I like running my enforcer in S7 but man is it deflating when matched up with a HGN IIC on the other side. They don't even need to torso twist! LOL!

#5 Amorous Weka

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 05:04 PM

As a thought,

Div 1 80-100
Div 2 50-70
Div 3 20-40
Div 4 Competitors choice

Not a perfect or in depth created set of divisions but a hell of a lot more suited than the current joke

#6 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 10:49 PM

Yes, some 'Mechs shouldn't be put in a match together. Dunno if PGI was just lazy or really believes the divisions are balanced.

#7 Helsbane

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 10:54 PM

As with all things balance related from the visionaries of PGI, they are determined by three key elements.

Swivel Chair
Dartboard
Blindfold

#8 Luminis

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 11:59 PM

View PostAmorous Weka, on 21 April 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

As a thought,

Div 1 80-100
Div 2 50-70
Div 3 20-40
Div 4 Competitors choice

Not a perfect or in depth created set of divisions but a hell of a lot more suited than the current joke

I'm not quite so sure that'll actually result in more variety than what we have now.

Your Div1, for example, is going to be dominated by the Annihilator. Not only does that basically push all Assaults other than the Anni out of S7, it's also a huge mess for the 75-tonners. KDKs and AS7s are bad enough if you're in a Marauder or something, but Annis?

Div2, I'd say IV-4s, maybe the LB40 MDD-C and that's largely it. Maybe some Dragons. All the heavier Mediums though? Rekt. Completely rekt. And I like seeing CN9s, PHXs and HBKs doing well for once.

Div3? Dunno, probably Assassins and Arctic Wolves, I'm not that experienced with light Mediums.

I mean, yeah, you'd be able to play the weight class you want to more reliably, but I don't think it solves the "bring X Mech or be at a disadvantage" issue.

#9 Nesutizale

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 12:50 AM

Someone suggested an ELO like rating for each mech chassis. That could help as the meta mechs should get into the same league while the none meta mechs slowly sort themself out by effectiveness.
I think that would be a good idea for the repositioning after the 3 month season.

#10 Blood Rose

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 04:52 AM

In my medium trial mech I managed to destroy a Dire Wolf.....
But thats a highlight over 3 losses caused by facing stuff I couldnt even scratch.

#11 FirestormClone218

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 07:54 AM

Personally I like how Div 3 is just king crabs and nothing else

#12 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 08:05 AM

Div 5 is CTF-4X and the rest.

#13 Rick T Dangerous

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 12:07 PM

View PostAmorous Weka, on 21 April 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

As a thought,

Div 1 80-100
Div 2 50-70
Div 3 20-40
Div 4 Competitors choice

Not a perfect or in depth created set of divisions but a hell of a lot more suited than the current joke


Divs need some work. The walking cheese burgers that rule Div 3 have been mentioned, and of course there's cheese in every division. Divisions by weight classes (Assault, Heavy, Medium, Light) or the way Amorous Weka suggested, would be problematic for reasons mentioned by the others in this thread, but it would be a start. Could be combined with something like the option for lighter classes to compete in the heavier classes if they want to. So you could pick a Mist Lynx and jump into the assault division.

Maybe the more practical option (and the one where PGI can safe face) would be to make the first season a "test season" that lasts only two to four weeks.

#14 Phoenix2730

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 04:35 PM

The divisions do need some work, but I'm having fun in D2 and D6. I'm running my Mad Dog in D2, srm/med pulse build and I've had success against the Atlas's and Timber Wolves I've come across. The matches are usually pretty damn close, but I've pulled out a win more often then not. In D6 I run my Phawk and mainly see Centurions. Either take the arm off quick or go for the legs. I'd love to see more diverse builds out there, but I personally have had fun so far. 1 vs 1 is a whole new ballgame, and it's fun to see what people come up with. True, some people go straight meta, and it gets boring, but every now and then you see some unique builds.

#15 PrimalHunter

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 05:24 PM

I am right there with you. The divisions are completely screwed as they are right now. I end up fighting almost nothing but assaults (and usually the same ones); I play mediums and heavies most of the time (the occasional assault or light). The only non-assault mechs that even stand a reliable chance in Div3 is the Stormcrow and Linebacker (I have had good success in my linebacker, even against the assaults - but matches against assaults feel heavily disadvantaged). The extra armor and firepower usually overturns even the extra speed and agility if the assault's build is even halfway decent and the pilot can hit reasonably well.

I do enjoy 1v1, even with the the major tonnage difference, but the matches where one mech vastly outweighs the other there is definitily a huge advantage to the heavier mech; unless the agility difference is so massive that the assault can't face the other mech much, if at all - as happens with light v assault sometimes. But, in my opinion, this is almost exclusively with the light mechs and maybe a couple mediums like the Black Lanner. Most heavies and assaults just simply cannot out-turn and out-maneuver the assaults enough to make enough of a difference in a 1 on 1 match.

I would be in favor of having the divisions simply be Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault (and perhaps "Ultimate" where you can use any mech from any weight class - I think that's how it was in MW4 Mercs). Of course there will be mechs that can't compete very well with the better ones, and there will be a couple of mechs that are a bit better than most of the others in a given class, but I think it would end up being far more balanced than it is at present. A better pilot can still consistently beat someone in a mech that is a bit better than his, but even for a better pilot it is exceptionally hard to overcome double the weapons and half again the armor/structure.

I don't think any system will be perfect, given the nature of the game, but what they have now is completely broken. I think a straight up weight class system would fix most of the issues. If they wanted to further divide that up into divisions of bad/good/better/best mechs then that would probably fix the rest; in other words, have the divisions similar to how they have them now, but have each of those divisions divided into weight classes (kind of a hybrid of what they have now and a straight weight class system). Though, with such a system it might be hard finding a match, which might be part of the reason that they chose to do it this way. Still, even if that is the case, I think it was a mistake to do it like this.

Just my thoughts on the issue after playing on it a for a few days now.

See you guys in the field. Posted Image

#16 Throe

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 07:51 PM

I'm not going to tell you to git gud or to learn to play, but the ability to dictate the terms of engagement of a fight is an immense advantage. I'm not saying all the choices they made are great, but some of the division groupings which seem on the surface to be questionable decisions entirely are actually based on very real performance data.

Edited by Throe, 22 April 2018 - 08:15 PM.


#17 calmdawn

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 09:09 PM

Maybe we need just 1 division for Solaris:
you take any mech and face an enemy according to his skills and mech quality.

If you are low skilled player but you have an assault - you are allowed to face super pro in a light mech.

In this case, skills should compensate tonnage and overall mech quality, leaving only one division.

Edited by calmdawn, 22 April 2018 - 09:10 PM.


#18 Lightfoot

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 05:48 AM

Due to the miniature Solaris 7 maps, I don't think mixed mech class divisions are going to work. On the PUG maps, yes maybe a top Heavy mech can bring down a top Assault mech 50/50 chance. On maps where the map ends about 600 meters from the map center, no this is not possible most of the time, not 50/50.

Assault mechs can bring 30% more armor and structure, or more, and do double the damage at mid to short range, their only weakness being speed and agility. Solaris 7 maps remove the need for speed because all an assault needs to do is establish map center and they are in range or seconds from it.

Solutions:

1. Make at least 3 large new maps or open up Boreal, Jungle, Steiner Coliseum, at least two of those.

-or-

2. Use Mech Class divisions unless a mech is too weak to fight in it's own class.

#19 calmdawn

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 06:00 AM

When we play QP we can loose a match but increase our Elo.
I do not mind fighting someone without a chance to win, but If I damaged him enough I should increase my rank, while is rank shouldn't be increased or even reduced even if my opponent won the fight.

Otherwise, to make it completely equal, we should make a separate queue and division for each mech, for each mech and map, for each map and map and build (after all, a good sniper might be bad at some sorts of maps).

#20 Luminis

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 08:23 AM

View Postcalmdawn, on 23 April 2018 - 06:00 AM, said:

When we play QP we can loose a match but increase our Elo.

QP doesn't use ELO. PSR isn't even zero-sum or anything.





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