291 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

MischiefSC, on 13 May 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

That.

It didn't become a joke because cerml is still significantly superior to ISERMLs, especially in context of CEndo/ff/CDHS/CXL st al. The release of ISERMLs didn't change the underlying balance issue. 2cerml is better than is erml, isml or isll.

Right, but if a 5 damage IS ERML is "not comparable" to a 7 damage Clan ERML, how is a 7 damage Clan ERML "equal to" a 9 damage IS LL?

The damage difference is identical (in a pure numbers comparison, obviously different if you do a % change comparison) and the range difference is greater for Clan ERML to IS LL than from IS ERML to Clan ERML (again, in a pure numbers comparison, not a % change comparison).

I also never said IS ERMLs changed any balance issue, just laid the tired joke to rest.

So, if 2 Clan ERML are better than IS LL (I'm guessing you mean better than 1, but the inclusion of IS ML & IS ERML with no numbers could suggest you mean 2), I take it you were in favour of the latest Clan laser nerf?

Words in mouth again...

[Edit] CLARIFICATION

Since I seem to have to keep doing this.

I would prefer a damage reduction on Clan ERML to 6, with a reduction of duration and/or heat to compensate. I'm told that heat would be a bad choice due to Clan DHS boating, which I'm inclined to agree with, but I'll take what I can get.

Otherwise, I would like Large & Medium class Clan lasers GH linked, then to compensate that, removed the Medium & Small laser GH link, restore Clan LPL to 13 damage, restore Clan MPL to 8 damage and increase Clan SPL to 5 damage (not 6, not yet.) [/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 13 May 2018 - 01:50 PM.

[Luminis]

Jay Leon Hart, on 13 May 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

I'm told that heat would be a bad choice due to Clan DHS boating, which I'm inclined to agree with, but I'll take what I can get.

Depending on the application, reduced heat might be a huge boon. There's a reason why Clans don't have Lights that boat MLs (even before the MLX-G, ACH-E and PIR-1 brought MG boating to the table): An ACH with six MLs is going to cook itself, unlike, say, a WLF. Not that that's a bad thing at present, considering the damage, but lower damage and heat might make the CERML more attractive for certain applications while still achieving the primary goal, namely reducing the raw alpha potential of Clan Laser Vomit.

As such, I fully support your point.

[MischiefSC]

Luminis, on 13 May 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

Depending on the application, reduced heat might be a huge boon. There's a reason why Clans don't have Lights that boat MLs (even before the MLX-G, ACH-E and PIR-1 brought MG boating to the table): An ACH with six MLs is going to cook itself, unlike, say, a WLF. Not that that's a bad thing at present, considering the damage, but lower damage and heat might make the CERML more attractive for certain applications while still achieving the primary goal, namely reducing the raw alpha potential of Clan Laser Vomit.

As such, I fully support your point.

Except they did boat MLs - until MGs became so strong and numerous. Erml Ice Ferret is a thing that's used, before Crit Lynx a cerml ACH was a thing you saw along with the ersml/spl (depending on nerf cycle) ACH.

If you removed MGs from the game you'd see mpl Wolfhounds and cerml Ferrets for different roles.

Cerlls didn't fade from the limelight for anything other than better options. MGs are so strong now you'll see Urbies in competitive decks.

Which is amazing.

Edited -

I can agree with Jays changes, I'd even be happy with 6.5 damage to bring it in to line for DPS. Cerlls ate only a bit stronger on their own but they need balanced I the context of Clans DHS and inherent ability to boat DHS.

Honest The best fix for Clans laservomit isn't a weapon nerf - it's a DHS nerf.

Edited by MischiefSC, 13 May 2018 - 03:00 PM.

[LordBraxton]

This turn of events proves that clan players are way better and whining than IS players.

Maybe someday ill click on an IS mech again. Only time I do is for an event that requires medium mechs, otherwise it is clan heavies and assaults till the game dies.

[thievingmagpi]

LordBraxton, on 13 May 2018 - 05:23 PM, said:

This turn of events proves that clan players are way better and whining than IS players.

Maybe someday ill click on an IS mech again. Only time I do is for an event that requires medium mechs, otherwise it is clan heavies and assaults till the game dies.

guess you're missing out on some of the best mechs in the game. oh well

[Battlemaster56]

LordBraxton, on 13 May 2018 - 05:23 PM, said:

This turn of events proves that clan players are way better and whining than IS players.

Maybe someday ill click on an IS mech again. Only time I do is for an event that requires medium mechs, otherwise it is clan heavies and assaults till the game dies.

Or maybe getting shafted so hard with a heavy handed nerfs will piss off any reasonable player. No one wants op laser vomit from any side clans everyone know is a problem but those nerfs miss the mark hard and would kill off so many mechs or leaving others with little to alternatives.

Seriously if you think people are crying because they call PGI's stupid descions, then players like you are the silent ones not challenging the opposition and let anything happen despite your problems with others.

[PocketYoda]

The best move PGI ever did imo but they caved .. useless company..

[Mortalcoil]

Battlemaster56, on 13 May 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

Or maybe getting shafted so hard with a heavy handed nerfs will piss off any reasonable player. No one wants op laser vomit from any side clans everyone know is a problem but those nerfs miss the mark hard and would kill off so many mechs or leaving others with little to alternatives.

Seriously if you think people are crying because they call PGI's stupid descions, then players like you are the silent ones not challenging the opposition and let anything happen despite your problems with others.

Like those IS LPL nerfs that killed IS LPL's. Luckily PGI caved on that. Oh, no, wait, they didn't. That went through.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Mortalcoil, on 13 May 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Like those IS LPL nerfs that killed IS LPL's. Luckily PGI caved on that. Oh, no, wait, they didn't. That went through.

Tell me. How were lpls nerfed?

[Mortalcoil]

Johnathan Tanner, on 13 May 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Tell me. How were lpls nerfed?

I was going to say do your own research, but if you must know, in 2016 and early 2017, IS LPL was a very very popular laser. It was the only time I would say IS and Clan were close in balance. Of course PGI nerfed the LPL last year and ever since then, it's basically been a dead weapon.

[Crazy Joe]

Mortalcoil, on 13 May 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

I was going to say do your own research, but if you must know, in 2016 and early 2017, IS LPL was a very very popular laser. It was the only time I would say IS and Clan were close in balance. Of course PGI nerfed the LPL last year and ever since then, it's basically been a dead weapon.

I like the part where you answered his question.

Edit: Also, I find it funny that these nerfs, which would have otherwise killed a bunch of laser builds outright, are okay, but the nerf to IS LPLs (which I'm assuming was just heat and damage nerfs) is not okay at all in your mind. Your bias is showing.

Edited by Crazy Joe, 13 May 2018 - 08:43 PM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Crazy Joe, on 13 May 2018 - 08:38 PM, said:

I like the part where you answered his question.

Edit: Also, I find it funny that these nerfs, which would have otherwise killed a bunch of laser builds outright, are okay, but the nerf to IS LPLs (which I'm assuming was just heat and damage nerfs) is not okay at all in your mind. Your bias is showing.

Just a bit lol. The blr-2c with 5 lpls was a ridiculously powerful build. Its still doable today. I still run IS lpls on some of my mechs. There fine. GH on is lpl is 3 if they tried to take it to 2 It would be trash. Guys trolling badly

[Mortalcoil]

Crazy Joe, on 13 May 2018 - 08:38 PM, said:

I like the part where you answered his question.

Edit: Also, I find it funny that these nerfs, which would have otherwise killed a bunch of laser builds outright, are okay, but the nerf to IS LPLs (which I'm assuming was just heat and damage nerfs) is not okay at all in your mind. Your bias is showing.

Except IS LPL's are basically dead. Nobody uses them anymore. People would still use ER ML's

[Mortalcoil]

Johnathan Tanner, on 13 May 2018 - 08:49 PM, said:

Just a bit lol. The blr-2c with 5 lpls was a ridiculously powerful build. Its still doable today. I still run IS lpls on some of my mechs. There fine. GH on is lpl is 3 if they tried to take it to 2 It would be trash. Guys trolling badly

Yeah, no, LPL's are dead for serious IS teams.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Mortalcoil, on 13 May 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Except IS LPL's are basically dead. Nobody uses them anymore. People would still use ER ML's

lol wut. no lpl warhammers and hoppers still exist. lpl battlemasters are still seen regularly. lpl quickdraws still exist. The damage of the lpl was reduced. Not the GH limit. Thier is no comparing these nerfs

Mortalcoil, on 13 May 2018 - 08:59 PM, said:

Yeah, no, LPL's are dead for serious IS teams.

Tell me that after EVIL rolls you again

[Mortalcoil]

Johnathan Tanner, on 13 May 2018 - 09:01 PM, said:

lol wut. no lpl warhammers and hoppers still exist. lpl battlemasters are still seen regularly. lpl quickdraws still exist. The damage of the lpl was reduced. Not the GH limit. Thier is no comparing these nerfs


Tell me that after EVIL rolls you again

LL/ML or LL/ERML is mathematically superior to LPL/ML. You still see LPL's used, but it's wrong.

Here's a document of the best IS/clan mehcs. You will see LPL's basically nowhere.

https://docs.google....lview?sle=true#

Sorry buddy, the good players know IS LPL is dead.

[Luminis]

Mortalcoil, on 13 May 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Except IS LPL's are basically dead. Nobody uses them anymore. People would still use ER ML's

So, just so I get this right, you're lamenting the death of the LPL due to the ~9% nerf it received a while back (well, that, and the fact that the IS ERML covers roughly the same bracket, but let's not consider that because PGI clearly hates the IS), but you're fully supporting what amount to to a 33% nerf on another weapon system? You sure you're as objective as you think you are?

Mortalcoil, on 13 May 2018 - 09:09 PM, said:

https://docs.google....lview?sle=true#

An awful lot of IS Mechs in the better Tiers on this list you're putting faith in, considering how hard Clans have to be nerfed to bring them down to par.

[Mortalcoil]

Luminis, on 13 May 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

So, just so I get this right, you're lamenting the death of the LPL due to the ~9% nerf it received a while back (well, that, and the fact that the IS ERML covers roughly the same bracket, but let's not consider that because PGI clearly hates the IS), but you're fully supporting what amount to to a 33% nerf on another weapon system? You sure you're as objective as you think you are?


An awful lot of IS Mechs in the better Tiers on this list you're putting faith in, considering how hard Clans have to be nerfed to bring them down to par.

I'm not supporting any nerf. I have never said I supported or was against the nerf. You can look through my post history. What I have said is I find it absolutely hilarious that clan cried their way into having the nerfs removed. If you don't believe me, feel free to look through my post history. Never once did I say I was in favor of the nerf. In fact, what I did say was that I'm happy to continue to lol my way through MWO with clan laser vomit.

Edited by Mortalcoil, 13 May 2018 - 09:28 PM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Mortalcoil, on 13 May 2018 - 09:09 PM, said:

LL/ML or LL/ERML is mathematically superior to LPL/ML. You still see LPL's used, but it's wrong.

Here's a document of the best IS/clan mehcs. You will see LPL's basically nowhere.

https://docs.google....lview?sle=true#

Sorry buddy, the good players know IS LPL is dead.

Seen it. Its good stuff.

You know there was another guy who made lists like that. And another before that. They were all good stuff. But good players win mostly by being good not by mathematics. It wouldn't be a game if it was. By your reasoning good players should still get rekt because they arent running to the letter whats in one players google doc......

But 1 energy weapon losing 1 point of damage did not wreak all energy weapons for IS. There is comparing the effects of the IS lpl nerf to the effect of this crap WOULD have had on an unholy **** of builds is insane.

Please construct a better argument.

[Luminis]

Mortalcoil, on 13 May 2018 - 09:27 PM, said:

I'm not supporting any nerf.

And you're not spamming the forums with threats about the whole thing because you're salty PGI didn't go ahead with them. Sure.

Edited by Luminis, 13 May 2018 - 09:35 PM.