177 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

Battlemaster56, on 19 May 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

I mean 6 damage clan laser won't shake things up to much in the clan lineup and builds as a guy who runs mostly clan mechs to it won't hurt my laser vomit or gauss vomit anyway or any laser related builds as it still take the same amount of time for me to kill an opponent just a tiny extra time to do so.

DOn't take this as me defending the overwhelming power that is cERML and HLL, I do believe toning down HLL first to get out the way should start then hitting cERML, I'm just looking for many alternatives and see the options before hit the first button.

But what about the Ice Ferret? It would lose 5 damage total. We can't nerf cERML because it would make already bad mech worse.

/s

[Luminis]

Low agility is an all-encompassing issue, honestly. It's not just lasers with long burn times that benefit from it; the same goes for slow projectiles like missiles, DPS-focused ballistics and even stuff like the HGR benefits massively from opponents that twist and dodge slower. Run around a corner, see an ANH-1X and you're usually too slow to stop and reverse to safety before eating that alpha. Bringing agility back up to resemble pre-desync stats a little more ought to go a long way for a good number of Mechs.

And since we're on the topic of Clan Lasers again: I'll be first in line for a Clan Medium Laser that does less damage but runs cooler and has a shorter burn time. Hell, depending on the build, I'd love to stick the good old IS Medium Laser on my Mechs, actually.

That said, how many Mechs are there where the cERML is an issue? HBR, yeah, the MAD-IIC, I guess (even though it's way surpassed by builds other than Laser Vomit lately) and the HBK-IIC? Any other strictly laser vomit Mechs that have a proper claim to OP'ness?

[Battlemaster56]

kapusta11, on 20 May 2018 - 09:33 AM, said:

But what about the Ice Ferret? It would lose 5 damage total. We can't nerf cERML because it would make already bad mech worse.

/s

I'll be honest I see more Vindi's and Victors combine than I see than the rare Ice Ferret running around but then agian the former is a rare treat.

[lazorbeamz]

Solaris has shown us how bad those laser vomit builds are in actual 1v1s. Laser vomits are maybe not a problem.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 20 May 2018 - 12:26 PM.

[FupDup]

lazorbeamz, on 20 May 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

Solaris has shown us how bad those laser vomit builds are in actual 1v1s. Laser vomits are maybe not a problem.

Solaris shouldn't really be the balancing point of a game that has been team-based for the past six years.

[Luminis]

FupDup, on 20 May 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

Solaris shouldn't really be the balancing point of a game that has been team-based for the past six years.

That's true, but it does highlight that these builds have significant weaknesses that can be exploited. Which, in turn, raises the question whether stuff needs nerfing because people fail to capitalise on its weaknesses.

/edit:
And while I know MRBC isn't the be all, end all, just look at the Mechs picked on a wide open map like Alpine vs. what was picked on Bog and tell me y'all don't pick up a pattern immediately:




Now, imagine an entire World Championship being played exclusively on wide open maps and riddle me this: Would it make the side that excels at shorter ranges look worse than they are?

Edited by Luminis, 20 May 2018 - 12:56 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

That's true, but it does highlight that these builds have significant weaknesses that can be exploited

those weaknesses dont really exist in team games though

its true that in 1v1 a laser vomit mech is weak against a brawler. but multiple laser vomit mechs can focus down brawlers before they become a threat.

when laser vomit reaches critical mass it becomes inherently broken. thats why its crucial to lower the damage on clan lasers to make it more difficult to reach that critical mass.

just lowering the damage of CERML to 6 and HLL to 16-17 should help bring things back into line. Because thats 6-10 less damage PER laser vomit mech. If you have like 5-6 laser vomit mechs in a game thats a considerable decrease to the critical mass.

and of course engine desync needs a do over and the mobility skill tree still needs buffs. buffing agility back to where it used to be will help reduce the effectiveness of lasers as well.

Edited by Khobai, 20 May 2018 - 01:24 PM.

[Bud Crue]

From skill tree pts, second iteration (where desync was introduced):

Engine selection has long been a balance sore-spot in MWO. Too much was gained by upgrading Engines to higher ratings, with little opportunity for providing a compelling give-and-take between the lighter, slower Engines against the heavier, faster Engines. The system also created a dynamic where baseline ‘Mech viability could be dramatically impacted by the inherent Engine restrictions of a 'Mech. These issues only compounded Inner Sphere and Clan imbalances, with Clan 'Mechs fielding much heavier Engines than their Inner Sphere counterparts - with no sacrifice to Loadout - due to fundamentally lighter equipment.

So that was the stated reason for desync.

Apropo as well for https://mwomercs.com...-engine-desync/ which I just saw.

Edited by Bud Crue, 20 May 2018 - 01:29 PM.

[vibrant]

Xetelian, on 19 May 2018 - 10:13 PM, said:

Power Draw was so badly thought up that there is no way I trust PGI to actually implement it. Restricting Assault mechs to just a 30 point alpha, the same 30 point alpha as a light mech, is dumb as hell.

<snip>

a 30 point alpha on an assault might not be so awful, if it has much better sustainability than a light -- which could make for more interesting gameplay. Hypothetically, lights would be fast strikers, and assaults would be like walking turrets that can constantly spit out a hail of death.

Having the ability to build heavier mechs for DPS instead of alpha means we'd finally get away from this never-ending game of peek-a-boo. It might also make pushes more useful, since the lead mech won't be torn to shreds in 3 seconds by several mechs' ridiculous alphas.

Edited by vibrant, 20 May 2018 - 06:13 PM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

The nerf to clan laser damage should be followed by proportional adjustments to cool down, beam duration and heat. This way alpha is reduced, but DPS and dps/hps (heat efficiency) remain the same as they are now. Only the alpha is the problem.

[dwwolf]

El Bandito, on 19 May 2018 - 08:47 PM, said:

Progressive heat penalty might have helped too. Imagine if a mech's accel/decel is cut in half if its heat is over 70%. That'll make poking with big laser alphas more risky, as you can't go back to cover as fast as before.

Whut you mean like proper BT heatscale effects ?

Edited by dwwolf, 21 May 2018 - 06:01 AM.

[El Bandito]

dwwolf, on 21 May 2018 - 05:53 AM, said:

Whut you mean like proper BT heatscale effects ?

A derivative of it, one that suits the FPS arena nature of the game, yes.

[Vonbach]

All the de sync did was kill brawling and kill assaults especially. Unless you want to snipe or LRM with them.
It also made it harder to twist to spread damage for everyone its a major reason that clan laser vomit is such a
huge problem. With brawling so nerfed everyone plays the endless game of peek a boo. And its boring as hell.
Then theres the issue of ecm clad heavy mechs walking around with 70+ point pinpoint alphas.
Something that shouldn't exist in the first place.

[R Valentine]

There has never been a point in time where the cERML was balanced, no matter how many nerfs they threw at it. You can't heat nerf it. You can't max-range nerf it. You can't duration nerf it. You can't even ghost heat nerf it. There is only one solution to the cERML that is DAMAGE. It should never have been given a 7 to 1 damage to tonnage/critical ratio, ever. cERML needs to drop all the way to 6 damage. Feel free to un-nerf the heat and duration all you please after that. That clips 6 damage off all major laser vomit builds. You can even re-buff cLPL, because that only makes up 2. Then lower cMPL to 6.5. It costs 2 tons. But 42 damage for 6 tons all on one trigger is just way too stupid good.

[MTier Slayed Up]

"It's too hard to torso twist, so let's nerf lasers and have flat ballistic damage dominate the game, so I can face tank longer in my Cicada," is pretty much what I've read so far.

[R Valentine]

DrtyDshSoap, on 21 May 2018 - 06:51 AM, said:

"It's too hard to torso twist, so let's nerf lasers and have flat ballistic damage dominate the game, so I can face tank longer in my Cicada," is pretty much what I've read so far.

Then your reading skills are very, very, very, very lacking.

[Luminis]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 May 2018 - 06:39 AM, said:

There has never been a point in time where the cERML was balanced, no matter how many nerfs they threw at it. You can't heat nerf it. You can't max-range nerf it. You can't duration nerf it. You can't even ghost heat nerf it. There is only one solution to the cERML that is DAMAGE. It should never have been given a 7 to 1 damage to tonnage/critical ratio, ever. cERML needs to drop all the way to 6 damage. Feel free to un-nerf the heat and duration all you please after that. That clips 6 damage off all major laser vomit builds. You can even re-buff cLPL, because that only makes up 2. Then lower cMPL to 6.5. It costs 2 tons. But 42 damage for 6 tons all on one trigger is just way too stupid good.

36 damage for six tons with less heat and duration will be significantly better in numerous situations compared to what we have now, though. It's the route I've been advocating, too, for that exact reason; it lowers laser vomit alphas without making the weapon actually worse - but let's not kid ourselves, the heat efficiency and burn duration the lowly IS ML offers is nothing to sneeze at and I'd love some of that on some of my Clan Mechs. A GH nerf is a harder from my point of view, honestly, because it doesn't just hit the "max alpha warrior" playstyle but everything else as well.

Lower damage, heat and duration might very well turn out as a (much needed) buff to playstyles other than Gauss Vomit.

As such, I obviously agree with you that that's what needs to happen, I just disagree that nerfs to heat, duration or GH limits wouldn't be effective.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 20 May 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

and of course engine desync needs a do over and the mobility skill tree still needs buffs. buffing agility back to where it used to be will help reduce the effectiveness of lasers as well.

The old mobility prior to the desync should be be split between engine size and the skill tree, if people don't want it back based purely on engine size.


Frankly, a game in which the Timber Wolf -- aka, the Mad Cat, the most iconic of all Mechs that even non-BT folks recognize -- moves like a slug is not "A BattleTech Game" ... oops ... I forgot, MWO is now a "Solaris 7" game. All is well, I guess.

Edited by Mystere, 21 May 2018 - 07:51 AM.

[R Valentine]

kapusta11, on 20 May 2018 - 09:33 AM, said:

But what about the Ice Ferret? It would lose 5 damage total. We can't nerf cERML because it would make already bad mech worse.

/s

The Ice Ferret's problems stem well, well beyond the cERLM, so no. I don't give a crap if it hurts the Ice Ferret. Not one measly bit.

[Yosharian]

The Ice Ferret, and other mechs which might be impacted by a cERML damage nerf, can be given quirks to make up for their loss of power. Arguing that a damage nerf would affect all chassis, not just overpowered ones, ignores the fact that MWO already has a system to buff individual mechs.

I use the cERML on nearly all my mechs and I agree, it's an incredibly strong weapon. BUT, if you nerf the damage, you gotta reign in the heat and lower the duration a bit.