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The Death Of Agility/mobility And The Rise Of Lasers

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#61 SalientWolf

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 09:48 AM

Hey all. I'm fairly new to the game, about 350 games in, and so far, I'm definitely enjoying the game, but I do feel the need to weigh in here.

I make it a point to try to murder light mechs as violently as possible every time I see them. The UrbanMech in particular inspires a rather unreasonable amount of rage within me. Because light mechs, inherently, serve no purpose other than to play like a jerk. Say you're enjoying a mech battle. PPCs flying, arms getting blown off, etc, then a light comes in at 150 km/hour, hosing the back of a mech that is too slow to turn and does not have the peripheral vision to see what is happening to him. His friends turn to save him, most shots missing, a few hit home but not enough to stop the cancer this lance has suddenly contracted. The light mech pilot, now realizing that the mechs approaching are going to be more of a threat to his suitability more than the rounds they are shooting, as him stopping his movement is the only way they're going to lay a laser on him, decides to book it. I have personally seen 5 people trying to kill a single pirahna and he just opts to run away. ECM renders him invisible past a certain distance, and you never see him again....until you go back to enjoying that fight from before and Mr 8 machine gun meta comes back, ripping off all your Marauder's guns. So, you can kind of understand why I make it top priority to put a few AC rounds through these little butt pimples the second I see them on the battlefield.

So, in light of that wall of text, I'd personally love it if, instead of making light mechs maneuverable, agile and speedy to the point that they don't play anything like things that are a few tons heavier than them, every mech was able to turn faster, move a little quicker, etc, and maybe slap lights with a nerf to their speed, BUT a buff to their armor. Make them play like french light tanks. Speedy, not at clinging to the back of a mech at point blank range like some kind of bizarre Stitch cosplayer, but at relocating their guns to various points of cover. Seriously, the vertigo that comes from trying to wrest myself around to deal with the tick that has suddenly become embedded in my rear armor in most games is VERY unwelcome.

#62 Alexander of Macedon

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 10:14 AM

View PostSalientWolf, on 23 May 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

Say you're enjoying a mech battle. PPCs flying, arms getting blown off, etc, then a light comes in at 150 km/hour, hosing the back of a mech that is too slow to turn and does not have the peripheral vision to see what is happening to him. His friends turn to save him, most shots missing, a few hit home but not enough to stop the cancer this lance has suddenly contracted. The light mech pilot, now realizing that the mechs approaching are going to be more of a threat to his suitability more than the rounds they are shooting, as him stopping his movement is the only way they're going to lay a laser on him, decides to book it. I have personally seen 5 people trying to kill a single pirahna and he just opts to run away.

That's what we like to call "user error". PIRs are made out of paper and will disintegrate under fire. If five people can't deal meaningful damage to a light that's running around at close range, that's their fault. If someone doesn't respond to back shots or doesn't know how to rotate their legs and torso at the same time, that's their fault.

View PostSalientWolf, on 23 May 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

ECM renders him invisible past a certain distance, and you never see him again....until you go back to enjoying that fight from before and Mr 8 machine gun meta comes back, ripping off all your Marauder's guns. So, you can kind of understand why I make it top priority to put a few AC rounds through these little butt pimples the second I see them on the battlefield.

No PIR variants have ECM.

Also, lights are statistically the lowest-performing and least-played weight class. Typically 7-10% play rate, and even good light jocks get noticeably and consistently better scores in larger 'mechs. If they were actually OP more people would play them.

View PostSalientWolf, on 23 May 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

So, in light of that wall of text, I'd personally love it if, instead of making light mechs maneuverable, agile and speedy to the point that they don't play anything like things that are a few tons heavier than them, every mech was able to turn faster, move a little quicker, etc,

This is how it used to be. But the actual effect of ballerina assaults and heavies is making 'mechs which can carry big dakka loads but which are a bit sluggish the best in the game (at least now that clan PPFLD is dead). All the problems with the MCII-B right now are a mere shadow of what the KDK-3 used to be before it got its agility nerfed.

View PostSalientWolf, on 23 May 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

and maybe slap lights with a nerf to their speed, BUT a buff to their armor.

God, no. There are already heavies and mediums which are faster and more agile than some/most lights, and almost all lights have some combination of bad hitboxes, being drastically oversized, or having **** hardpoints. Adding a little armor doesn't matter if you make them even slower and less agile than they already are.

Do me a favor. Get a Firestarter, a Jenner, a Mist Lynx, something like that. Try playing it and tell me how OP it is.

View PostSalientWolf, on 23 May 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

Make them play like french light tanks. Speedy, not at clinging to the back of a mech at point blank range like some kind of bizarre Stitch cosplayer, but at relocating their guns to various points of cover. Seriously, the vertigo that comes from trying to wrest myself around to deal with the tick that has suddenly become embedded in my rear armor in most games is VERY unwelcome.

This is how lights are already ideally played. The knife-range skirmishing meta (such that it was) died when they nerfed SPLas into the ground, and even before that it was mostly the same mix of med-range poking and backstabbing. MGs are only good for late-match janitorial duty and backstabbing oblivious potatoes who don't know how to counter-rotate or back up against a wall; trying to face-time people who aren't braindead is a fast route to an early death.

#63 Luminis

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 10:17 AM

View PostKhobai, on 23 May 2018 - 08:42 AM, said:

Ideally in a balanced game...

Regardless of the current state of affairs, I strongly disagree with the notion that the only way to balance things is equal damage per ton. Or strictly equal equipment for that matter. To do so, PGI does have to drop a good number of TT conventions and give both sides a forte, push out maps that reward the strengths of both sides equally and maybe even fix the maps that cater to one playing style too much.

Plenty of developers manage to achieve sufficient balance without making everything the same. PGI not pulling it off doesn't mean it's not possible.

View PostGhogiel, on 23 May 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

laser vomit isn't the same as gauss vomit.

Quoted for truth. The distinction is very important, actually, because Gauss Vomit is a "result is greater than the sum of its parts" kinda deal. The interaction between low weight, high heat weapons and high weight, low heat weapons is an obvious one and significantly compounds any balance issues with either weapon system; doesn't even matter whether it's cGauss + cERML or hGauss + (ER)ML. The issue is the, when combines, these weapon systems negate their supposed drawbacks.


View PostSalientWolf, on 23 May 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

Seriously, the vertigo that comes from trying to wrest myself around to deal with the tick that has suddenly become embedded in my rear armor in most games is VERY unwelcome.

Understandable and I believe we all felt the sheer, unadulterated hate towards that Light that swept in after we made it out of a tough brawl by the skin of our teeth and ripped us a new one. However, the sad reality is, that's the only way a Light has any chance to kill a Mech multiple times it's tonnage: By being sneaky, by backstabbing, by dodging fire. I mean, a Piranha has 36 HP on the CT (before Skill Tree bonuses), less on STs and legs. You give Heavies and Assaults the ability to easily land their shots on it and even the mighty Piranha, arguably the deadliest Light, by far, becomes sort of crap.

I mean, it's the only way to keep Lights just as scary as Assaults, which is how it should be in a game where one player = one Mech, regardless of weight.

The big outlier, in my opinion, are Mediums at present, though. And slow Lights, I guess...

Edited by Luminis, 23 May 2018 - 10:19 AM.


#64 SalientWolf

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 10:40 AM

View PostAlexander of Macedon, on 23 May 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

No PIR variants have ECM.


Huh, really... I must have misidentified the mech then. Chalk up it up to seeing only the little gremlins at a glence, chaotic situation, and my overall noobishness.

And I have tried to run an Arctic Cheetah before. Did not pan out too well. That kind of thing requires twitch reflex, the consumption of several gallons of energy drink, and the knowledge of various LM builds that cater to the meta. All of which, I do not possess. However, those who take their own lights into quickplay often DO have those kinds of things. I've had myself shut down by flamers and my cockpit popped by a single Urban mech and he just left to go finish capturing my team's base. I've also had them leap on me and start tearing me apart and I had no idea who was hitting me or where they were. Turns out, from under my Marauder's arms, and with lack of any peripheral vision, I was an easy kill. That kind of thing just gets under my skin. Bear in mind, this has all happened while I was trying my hardest to stay with my team. I might be a Salient wolf, but I'm not a lone wolf.

#65 JudauAshta

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 12:56 PM

you're new to the game

lights are very meh right now.

only able to do lots of damage when enemy team is full of baboons

#66 MrXanthios

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 01:42 PM

I generally find torso twisting when peaking a joke, counting in all the delays involved in the game, the ping of you and the enemy, the natural delay of your reaction, the fact that you also have to deal your damage, which means you have to face the enemy for the duration of your weapons, all the intake damage will be on just one component inevitably. I am experiencing it on my wvr-6k, even when I torso twist and I see the red marker shifting around the hud following my movement, majority of the damage always goes to the right arm, which is the one opponents are targetting.

#67 LordNothing

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 03:38 PM

make xl come with a 15-25% agility buff then we might see them again. i have been mothballing my xls in favor of lfes. even some of my lights run lfes over xls now. make xl great again!

#68 BTGbullseye

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 03:42 PM

View PostSalientWolf, on 23 May 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

Huh, really... I must have misidentified the mech then. Chalk up it up to seeing only the little gremlins at a glence, chaotic situation, and my overall noobishness.

Probably a Mist Lynx.

#69 LordNothing

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 04:17 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 19 May 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

I still stand by my comment that 7 damage for 1 ton weapon is unbalanced, and 78 laser only alpha is retardedly good in trades. Something should be done to lower those.


i can understand an extra hitpoint on the clan side in exchange for crappier durations, and better range is already countered with more heat. i also cant remember the last time i used a pulse laser on either side. would seem to indicate that hitpoints trumps all in the laser world, and its why i like heavies a lot. +2 might be a little overboard. heavies in general need an is counterpart, maybe xpulse, but i know pgi doesnt want to do exp tech. new lasers are likely the easiest to add to the game because they dont really require model retrofits, just using the one size fits all laser point.

so i think maybe limiting the clan damage advantage to a single hitpoint for all meds and larges is probibly a good thing. clans would still have the advantage over more heat sinks that use less space and more hardpoints.

though you can probibly use a combination of positive and negative quirks to rate omnipods based on available hardpoints. these quirks would stack such that you can end up with a positive or negative quirk based on your omnipod selection. so stacking all the max laser point pods would result in diminishing returns as all your quirks would be in the red.

ratings would simply be the hardpoint count plus a height rating. the height rating would just define 3 height levels with the low points (about waist high) counting as a -1 and high points (above the cockpit) being +1, and moderate height being 0. so that 7 hardpoint exe arm would actually be a 6 and the tripple laser rack on the timby would count as 4. a rating of 3 would be a 0% quirk with each rating being +/- 5 per level from there. its a lot more versatile than set of 8 and allows you to use the main feature of omnimechs, and also makes the lesser omnipods viable options when going with a fewer larger laser build vs a multiple smaller arrangement. you could either omtimize for quirks or max alpha. one of the problems with clan laser vomit builds is they are woefully ineffective against an aggressive opponent. so heat neutral lower damage clan laser builds would find their uses.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 May 2018 - 04:29 PM.


#70 BTGbullseye

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 04:35 PM

Or they could just make the Clan lasers identical to IS lasers in every way, except that they burn long enough to do those extra damage points. Same damage and heat per tick, same cooldown, same range, same weight. (keep slots as they are though) Seems logical to me anyways.

#71 LordBraxton

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 05:16 PM

View PostBTGbullseye, on 23 May 2018 - 04:35 PM, said:

Or they could just make the Clan lasers identical to IS lasers in every way, except that they burn long enough to do those extra damage points. Same damage and heat per tick, same cooldown, same range, same weight. (keep slots as they are though) Seems logical to me anyways.


Clans have better engines, internals, armor, and weight on their weapons.

IS weapons need to be better. Hell they need to be better ton for ton not just better... Im saying this because I really only play my Clan mechs. IS feels like a handicap.

#72 Luminis

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 06:27 PM

View PostLordBraxton, on 23 May 2018 - 05:16 PM, said:

Im saying this because I really only play my Clan mechs. IS feels like a handicap.


Yes, firepower is the only metric that matters at all (that's why Mechs like the DRG, WHM-6R, ANH-2A, ANH-1X, CP-S, QKD-IV4 and so on are hot garbage), make everything the same damage per ton, boom, perfect balance! And perfectly fun, too! Y'all solved it, let's all have a cold one!

Posted Image

#73 BTGbullseye

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 08:17 PM

View PostLordBraxton, on 23 May 2018 - 05:16 PM, said:

Im saying this because I really only play my Clan mechs. IS feels like a handicap.

I'll take you in any Clan mech 1v1 with me in a Fafnir. I guarantee you'll lose, and that ain't bragging.

#74 YueFei

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 10:17 PM

View PostMrXanthios, on 23 May 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

I generally find torso twisting when peaking a joke, counting in all the delays involved in the game, the ping of you and the enemy, the natural delay of your reaction, the fact that you also have to deal your damage, which means you have to face the enemy for the duration of your weapons, all the intake damage will be on just one component inevitably. I am experiencing it on my wvr-6k, even when I torso twist and I see the red marker shifting around the hud following my movement, majority of the damage always goes to the right arm, which is the one opponents are targetting.


Try stutter-stepping, some mechs have very very good accel/decel and that helps spread incoming damage. Wolverines are near the top of the 55-ton category when it comes to accel/decel.

When peeking, don't even wait for your own visual processing and reaction time, just assume someone will be looking at you and shooting back when you peek, and be stutter-stepping right from the get-go.

The last thing you can do that will help is to peek from farther away from a corner. It gives you a perspective advantage and helps you to at least see the enemy at the same time that he sees you, and in some cases you can see the enemy before he sees you. If you stand too close to a corner when peeking, and the enemy is farther from the corner than you are, he actually sees you first. Here's a video demonstrating the concept in CS:GO:


One other thing you can try is to unlock the arms from the torso, and aim the arm at an angle to help minimize the profile that the arm presents.

#75 Xetelian

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 01:49 AM

So it appears that a good portion of this thread agrees that mechs are a bit too sluggish and that is hurting TTK for many.

Where do we go from here? Do we need to head to change.org and file a petition to get Russ/Chris/Paul's attention?

Last time I made a point to visit Chris's conversation about balance on a NGNG stream he said he was buffing 100 ton mech stats, then he buffed the accel of a couple of them by 2 points, which is literally next to nothing (this was shortly after he started). I didn't bother to follow his movements any further because it became plainly obvious that they're not interested in making mechs feel better to drive. The token JJ buff that they just did is another example of them trying to placate the masses with tiny ity bity buffs just to say "Hey, remember, we buffed JJs like you asked".



Do we all need to get on twitter and tweet at the top of our lungs until half of us are blocked?



I'd love to believe that PGI would read this thread, I'd love to believe that PGI would find themselves of the same opinion that mechs are too slow and sluggish. I'd love to believe that they would make actual changes, real, strong buffs to agility/mobility.
However I am 100% sure they don't think this way and that they don't want to make big changes to how mechs get around.



This is part of the problem with PGI, they have two speeds:
1. Uber/Ultra/Giga Nerfs
2. Baby step changes

We also know they only listen to the community when a bunch of people threaten to take back their pre-order money.

This is no way to run a company.


We can't have top level players solely balancing the game from the top down because what doesn't kill them can still be killing people with ease at the middle down to the bottom.

We can't have potatoes balancing our game because what weapons work for them at their level might not work at the top (like LRMs for example).


As far as I'm concerned the entire balance team at PGI doesn't play this game in the wild enough to truly understand what they need to do and be able to figure out how to do it. Its like having layman build you a house after occasionally attending an architecture class or two. Sure they'll know that you need 4 walls and a doorway to make a room but they'll never be able to utilize an arch. I thought having a player on their team would help but whoever came up with the laser GH change needs to not be allowed to balance things. This isn't about community push back, this is about a lot of us have the same idea that would help solve the issue with major laser alphas without castrating mechs that aren't over powered.

I'm sure they mean well, and I'm sure they work hard, and they have made strides towards balance over the years that have had a good impact. They have built a few rooms, but what we really need are arches. Precision over sledgehammer and bigger changes than a couple of things once a month.

#76 Alfa Tango

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 04:32 AM

View PostSalientWolf, on 23 May 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:


And I have tried to run an Arctic Cheetah before. Did not pan out too well. That kind of thing requires twitch reflex, the consumption of several gallons of energy drink, and the knowledge of various LM builds that cater to the meta. All of which, I do not possess. However, those who take their own lights into quickplay often DO have those kinds of things. I've had myself shut down by flamers and my cockpit popped by a single Urban mech and he just left to go finish capturing my team's base. I've also had them leap on me and start tearing me apart and I had no idea who was hitting me or where they were. Turns out, from under my Marauder's arms, and with lack of any peripheral vision, I was an easy kill. That kind of thing just gets under my skin. Bear in mind, this has all happened while I was trying my hardest to stay with my team. I might be a Salient wolf, but I'm not a lone wolf.


I started playing MWO in April again after some years of absence. Now I am mostly playing light mechs because I seem to make the most constant performance in SQ with my ACH although they are IMO harder to play than any other class. To be useful to your team at all you have to be on the move constantly. I managed to achieve over 500 damage maybe twice. That's a number which other class laugh about. Light classes are usually played least because of those reasons, and I think changes would make them either useless or even less played.

#77 Haipyng

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 04:44 AM

View PostAlfa Tango, on 24 May 2018 - 04:32 AM, said:


I started playing MWO in April again after some years of absence. Now I am mostly playing light mechs because I seem to make the most constant performance in SQ with my ACH although they are IMO harder to play than any other class. To be useful to your team at all you have to be on the move constantly. I managed to achieve over 500 damage maybe twice. That's a number which other class laugh about. Light classes are usually played least because of those reasons, and I think changes would make them either useless or even less played.


The lights life is a nervous one. You never stop moving.

It's a shame that they aren't used as much many more. Everyone just meets in the middle to duke it out so they aren't used to locate the enemy any more. ECM can be provided by heavier mechs now. Fewer people are playing game modes where they shine like Conquest (because you can't select the game mode to get to conquest on a light now without playing a dozen other games in it).

It takes a patient player to rack up 500 damage in a light. My hat's off to you. Posted Image

Edited by Haipyng, 24 May 2018 - 04:52 AM.


#78 Luminis

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 06:00 AM

View PostXetelian, on 24 May 2018 - 01:49 AM, said:

As far as I'm concerned the entire balance team at PGI doesn't play this game in the wild enough to truly understand what they need to do and be able to figure out how to do it.

All - or most, more likely - people posting in these topics play the game. Some a little, some a lot. And yet, we can't come to any meaningful conclusion about the current state of balance, let alone what needs to be done to actually improve it in any meaningful way.

I, for example, am somewhat apprehensive of blanket changes at present (except maybe for making the IS XL survive ST loss while removing, or at least severely reducing, armour and structure quirks on the IS side). They didn't do us much good in the past and with how severe the performance gap between garbo Mechs, mediocre Mechs and top performers is on either side of the fance, I have a hard time liking the idea of adjusting an entire faction based on outliers.

However, I could also name you a fistful of people who'd tell you that [insert faction they dislike here] is OPAF and even something like the Ice Ferret / Vindicator are BS cheater Mechs because all [insert faction they dislike here] Mechs are stupid and OP and BS and they hate them, and thus, [insert faction they dislike here] needs to be nerfed into the ground as a whole.

Now, I don't intent to defend PGI here, least of all their indecisiveness in general and willingness to buff underperformers in particular, but let's be honest, there's so god damn much noise coming from the MWO community regarding balance, I can't imagine that "listening to the community regarding balance" is an easy or enjoyable task to tackle.

#79 BTGbullseye

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 08:41 AM

View PostLuminis, on 24 May 2018 - 06:00 AM, said:

However, I could also name you a fistful of people who'd tell you that [insert faction they dislike here] is OPAF and even something like the Ice Ferret / Vindicator are BS cheater Mechs because all [insert faction they dislike here] Mechs are stupid and OP and BS and they hate them, and thus, [insert faction they dislike here] needs to be nerfed into the ground as a whole.

There are still people who think the Clans need to be nerfed now because they were OP when they were introduced years ago... They don't care how balanced they are now, just that they suffered then, and want to make others suffer now as retribution.

#80 Luminis

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 08:58 AM

View PostBTGbullseye, on 24 May 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

There are still people who think the Clans need to be nerfed now because they were OP when they were introduced years ago... They don't care how balanced they are now, just that they suffered then, and want to make others suffer now as retribution.

Those people aren't even the ones that irritate me the most.

People who openly state that never, ever touched a Clan Mech because Calnners are filthy vatborn scum or never touched an IS Mech because Spheroids are filthy freeborn scum - those people annoy me real bad.

Edited by Luminis, 24 May 2018 - 08:58 AM.






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