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What Was The Point Of The Engine Desync?


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#81 Khobai

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 07:56 PM

Quote

Some lights like the KFX, ADR, UM, PNT, COU, etc. are meant to combat oriented.


and yet they will always fall short of heavier mechs in the combat role.

for example a KFX has no chance in hell of competing with a clan heavy for damage.

which would be fine if the KFX's role was a combination of doing whatever damage it can but also providing important support/utility in the form of a supplemental role like electronic/sensor warfare.

I mean the KFX would be pretty amazing if it could create fake radar contacts, cut off enemy sensor networks, use NARC to make enemy HUDs go haywire, TAG enemies for their team's Nagas to launch ARROWIV cruise missiles, etc...

If the KFX could do all that, then it would be acceptable for it to do less damage than heavier mechs. because thered be a bunch of things it could do that a heavy mech couldnt.


but PGI has completely failed to give light mechs the ability to do anything else. and youre saying assaults have to suffer because light mechs are bad? thats ridiculous. instead light mechs SHOULDNT BE BAD.

Edited by Khobai, 21 May 2018 - 08:01 PM.


#82 cougurt

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 07:57 PM

View PostFupDup, on 21 May 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

The issue is that if big mechs get too agile, that makes smaller mechs entirely obsolete because mobility is the only advantage they have. I'm not saying the current values are great, just that there needs to always be a considerable agility gap to prevent MWO from devolving into the same exact tonnage arm's race that every MW game has before it (and even that new HBS game).

i think lights and mediums could probably stand to get an agility buff as well. it's a little strange when something like the linebacker has superior agility to practically the entire medium lineup, even edging out a few lights.

#83 Besh

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 12:42 AM

View PostAsym, on 21 May 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

[...]

My NTG before the massive agility nerf were beasts and medium and light mechs had better be paying attention cause the NTG could turn with them...... Oh yes, poor medium and light mechs can't take advantage.....oh, the tears I'm shedding. Yes, we massacred lights and mediums stupid enough to come in close..... Then, PGI destroyed an entire mech class and lights now could do what ever they wanted because heavy and assaults "could not turn with them..."

[...]


And funnily enough, xactly what you are describing above was one, or maybe even THE Issue they had to tackle .

There are combat oriented Strike Lights, whose Role encompasses to be able to close in and engage to distract, or finish off much heavier 'Mechs. Their superior Agility is the ONE thing they (should) have going for them.

Pre SkillTree/Desync, a skillfully piloted Assault with a big enough Engine and skills unlocked could quite handily render that kind of 'Mech obsolete, was able to counter their agility/movements 1:1 . And that, well...was kindof ridiculous . Just like Ballerina Heavies were ridiculous .

Edited by Besh, 22 May 2018 - 01:12 AM.


#84 Bishop Six

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 12:53 AM

View PostLuminis, on 20 May 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

If that ain't the name of the game for MWO, I don't know what is.


The big issue I personally have with PGI in that regard is how averse they are to buffing Mechs. It most certainly doesn't take a lot of work to change a few lines of text in an XML file - and if they need to, I'll gladly write them a little tool to alter the stats on several Mechs at once if need be; there's just no rational reason why underperformers like the Banshee don't get their agility back. No reason at all.


New Mechpacks?

Many times i thought "Why should i buy this mech xy? I already have xx with similar hardpoints/purpose."

Ah right, he is broken now. So i can just buy the new mechpack without broken mech (until next mechpack comes out...)

Its ridiculous.

And with engine desync THE Mech of BT is broken. Or who fears an Atlas anymore?

I drove one again after long time a few days agon in FP: I cried in the cockpit...sad & dead my Atlas...

Atlas is like an old clown stuttering & rumbling over the maps, turning left & right and tries to catch the targets, but oh dear...he is old and slow and cant hit **** anymore.

The young wolves **** him from all sides, no chance, no fear, former glory gone...poor Atlas R.I.P.

Edited by Bishop Six, 22 May 2018 - 12:56 AM.


#85 Mystere

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 12:58 AM

View PostKhobai, on 21 May 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

what are you talking about?

it was free before...


The key word precisely being "before".

As I told you in the other thread:

View PostMystere, on 21 May 2018 - 07:48 AM, said:

The old mobility prior to the desync should be be split between engine size and the skill tree, if people don't want it back based purely on engine size.


#86 sycocys

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 01:42 AM

The numbers aren't spot on, but the de-sync made the game actually feel like you were piloting dozens to a hundred tons of machine.

It would have worked out better if they had made the node system cost slots and tonnage.

#87 Bishop Six

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 02:36 AM

View Postsycocys, on 22 May 2018 - 01:42 AM, said:

The numbers aren't spot on, but the de-sync made the game actually feel like you were piloting dozens to a hundred tons of machine.

It would have worked out better if they had made the node system cost slots and tonnage.


That wouldnt be the problem. Imo the problem is that most "old" assaults feel like easy breakable busses (R.I.P. Atlas & Kodiak & Banshee & Direwolf), but oh wonder, the new assaults for real money are always fast & quirked.

It must be a coincidence.

Edited by Bishop Six, 22 May 2018 - 02:36 AM.


#88 Asym

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 05:55 AM

View PostFupDup, on 21 May 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

If you don't want lights or mediums to be able to take advantage of your mobility weakness up close, then where exactly are they supposed to be able to outplay you? Yes, you have to answer this. There needs to be some sort of situation where heavies and assaults are less effective than a medium or light, similar to how there are situations where a medium or light are much less effective than a heavy or assault. Different strengths for different classes.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

First off, we don't have "roles" in MWO anymore. That baby went out with the bathwater a long time ago... Roles, are what define what mech classes abilities are... Lights were never intended to fight assaults "face-to-face" nor, come within their 60 degree frontal arc cause that would be as close to fatal as it comes.... No roles means there's no rules......and, that's where we are and that is why "balance" is the hot discussion: because everyone wants their cake and eat it ! That is the reality were we live/play today !

A concepts you discuss: Outplay. Means that somehow, we are equals? That we have some form of illogical "balance" cause if we don't, "skill" becomes a variable with all sorts of pluses and minuses (nerfs, quirks, buffs, etc...) and then, after all of the techno mumbo-jumbo, we talk about pilot skill..... Pilot skill? Based on what? PSR? ELO? Win/loss? Seriously.... there is little merits in those discussion as we've seen since the Skill tree changes almost a year ago. Too much variation to determine "skill"....

Effective. Or, less effective.... Roles usually are where effectivity resides.
A good scout get rewarded by not being seen and spotting the enemy or collecting data.
A support pilot gets graded in the amount of damage his/her support provides.
An assault is measured by what is efficiently killed and heavies, are measured by the KMDD and kills on flanks or in support of the assaults.... to each their own and combined, we have effective "teams"....

Alas, the team concept has been dealt a strategic blow of late, yes?! S7 is the MWO game title now and "THERE ARE NO TEAMS...." MW5, in the near future has done away with teams and at best, you'll have a squad........maybe. Without roles to define the classes of mechs, effectivity is lost to the white noise of "anything goes" and we see this everyday where light take on everything else and defy physics and survive. I've done this in my ASN and Urbie and there is so little reality that it is outright stupid...... And yet, it's what you and many others enjoy ! There's nothing wrong with that.....it's just not my cup of tea...

We have anarchy as a norm now. Almost a real FPS where the protagonist can be a God.... Everything I valued has left the game and with it, thousands and thousands of pilots and complete teams.... Was the cake worth it? I'm not so sure anymore.

Be well and have fun !!! Maybe, we'll meet in an event cause it's all I play anymore..... PS: there is no right or wrong in this discussion cause either stance can work....

Edited by Asym, 22 May 2018 - 06:06 AM.


#89 Weeny Machine

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 11:40 AM

It didn't do much for lights. Speed and agility shouldn't be trivial, yet a heavy turns so quickly that is next to impossible for a light to stay out of its firing arc for even a brief time.
Note: I am not talking about the Piranha, Commando, Lolcust etc

@EL Bandito:
Some 35t mechs lack agility and are huge. Jenner IICs for example turn like school buses

Edited by Bush Hopper, 22 May 2018 - 12:19 PM.


#90 Weeny Machine

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 11:59 AM

View PostFireStoat, on 20 May 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

It was a directed nerf to over performing Assaults as well as a general Clan mech nerf dressed up in the guise of 'balance between weight classes for their roles'. That last part is probably one of the most baldfaced lies that PGI ever gave to the community. At the time the pair of mechs causing the most problems for game balance were the Marauder IIC and Kodiak chassis, with the Scorch and KDK-3 being the variants being seen at the top of the heap. The Night Gyr was also a major offender in terms of being frightening with how often it was used and how well a person could do with it.

In preparation for the Civil War tech and the Skill tree, PGI's teams first looked at every mech and made some odd decisions on what each chassis should have as a baseline agility profile, and then this was further adjusted by someone else when the engine decouple from agility went down. The proof that the offered reason of intent was a lie was found in mechs like the Dragon which retained an agility profile better than numerous Light mechs with its weight being 60, and the 75 ton Timberwolf being given an agility profile equal to an 85 ton Warhawk, while retaining its negative quirks for mobility on top of this new base. Mechs like the MAD IIC ( B and (D) were given the same agility as the Scorch even though they were in vastly different realms of performance, which is what also happened to the Spirit Bear being given a nearly identical base agility equal to the KDK-3.

It's a sore subject in these parts for some. Many could call it a success for what it accomplished, but many more still look at PGI for having lied to sell what they wanted.


Yup, the Huggin was nerfed in the same patch. A trash tier mech got nerfed even more. Geez...I laughed so hard

#91 Ken Harkin

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 04:24 PM

Rather than say less fun I'd say different. I played all four classes before I play all four classes now. Changes force tactics to refine and keeps the challenge fresh.

#92 Khobai

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 05:08 PM

Quote

First off, we don't have "roles" in MWO anymore


there should definitely be roles. because roles are what differentiate otherwise similar mechs.

the elimination of role warfare as one of the four fundamental pillars of MWO was a huge mistake

because without roles you just have a small subset of mechs that stand above every other mech and most mechs feel samey or just plain inferior.

#93 Mortalcoil

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 11:44 AM

View PostKhobai, on 20 May 2018 - 11:06 AM, said:


Pretty much all 90+ ton mechs need their agility back.

The banshee isnt exactly known for being agile. I dont see why the banshee should get special treatment.


In MWO lore the Banshee was known for being extremely fast and agile for its size but horribly undergunned, so yeah.

#94 Dee Eight

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 09:09 PM

There's no logical reasons why highlanders, historically slow assaults in the LORE, should be more agile than most heavy mechs (IS or Clan). 45 degrees a second turn rate for a HGN2C and 50 for a HGN vs say an Orion (either tech version) at 42 degrees. Why does a supernova which is the same weight class as the highlander, same jump jet capability and same engine cap end up 10 degrees a second slower?

#95 Xetelian

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 02:18 AM

Engine desync was an idea a few crazy people had and when the KDK-3 and MAD-IIC-SC came out they cried really hard so PGI said "Might as well" and did the unthinkable and nerfed every mech in the game outside maybe the DRG and a couple others.


That is not how you do things.

#96 sycocys

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 05:51 AM

View PostBishop Six, on 22 May 2018 - 02:36 AM, said:


That wouldnt be the problem. Imo the problem is that most "old" assaults feel like easy breakable busses (R.I.P. Atlas & Kodiak & Banshee & Direwolf), but oh wonder, the new assaults for real money are always fast & quirked.

It must be a coincidence.

Actually forcing the node system to require a slot/tonnage cost would have greatly benefited the heavier (and especially the assault) mechs because they have the tonnage and slots to steer into those node improvements where the ligher mechs don't have that ability to allot the range of nodes without sacrificing firepower.

It would of course have required them to not be randomly quirking the mechs, they should have a base mobility for their tonnage and a smoother slope across the ranges. But once you get rid of the cost/loadout free buffs you have the overhead to have that situation and much of the ttk one as well start to actually balance itself out.

#97 Xetelian

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 04:06 PM

View PostBush Hopper, on 22 May 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

It didn't do much for lights. Speed and agility shouldn't be trivial, yet a heavy turns so quickly that is next to impossible for a light to stay out of its firing arc for even a brief time.
Note: I am not talking about the Piranha, Commando, Lolcust etc

@EL Bandito:
Some 35t mechs lack agility and are huge. Jenner IICs for example turn like school buses



JR7 IIC is a big walking CT that can't turn and can't twist away its incoming damage. Which is why I never see them anymore.



These nerfs are getting out of hand.





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