72 replies to this topic

[Villainy]

So I'm pretty publicly obsessed with the Locust Chassis, and I realize it's not exactly a heavy hitter, but I do love most light mechs.
What I don't love is lack of variation. I just had a game with 6 lights on the enemy team; 3 Piranha, 3 Mist Lynx. It struck me as odd so I started thinking back and realized, I've really ONLY seen Piranha and Mist Lynx for the most part, with Arctic Cheetahs, Locusts, and Commandos making rare guest appearances from game to game.
I'm not about to complain about the rabidly unbalanced PIR (which, seriously the MG change did jack for, if it run 139 KPH it shouldn't have four times the firepower as the other mechs its speed) but I do want to discuss how this could change, realistically.
Obviously there is always going to be a "best" mech at the time, and it will be played more, hence how a meta is created, but why is the meta allowed to be SO stagnant for SO long?

Any opinions that aren't "NERF THE PIRANHA IT'S MEAN" or the ilk?

[FupDup]

A fair number of lights on both sides are a tad underquirked.

On the Clam side, current heat and beam duration values on most lasers seriously limit their options. SRMs that weren't Artemis-mandatory would be nice too.

Oh, and future tech like Magshots, AP Gauss, LACs, and PACs would give smaller mechs some non-MG ballistic choices.

Edited by FupDup, 20 May 2018 - 03:05 PM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

The SPLas nerf killed basically everything that isn't clan MG spam or IS 6x MLas. They need to revert SPLas to 4 damage for IS and 6 damage for Clans (and nerf chassis which can abuse the latter instead of targeting the weapon system).

Apart from that, lights that go underused usually do so because they have terrible hitboxes and/or got screwed by the rescale and are currently the size of mediums.

[BrunoSSace]

Have you not seen me using my Ravens? I have quite a collection of IS light mechs.

[JediPanther]

Rescale is the number one reason why lights lack diversity. As an IS light pilot many of my lights became third rate mechs to the point they are only used for trolling or fun-experimental builds. Many became as big as a medium of heavy mech and when you combine it with the IS XL needed to make so many builds viable on the lights you just get tired of being one-shoted all the time.

As for light clan vs is light many lights on IS simply can not come close to clans' fire power. They have to use their mobility and quirks. Very rare can you counter a clan light with an IS light even if both builds use the exact same weapon type and hard point. Any time an IS light drops that can match a clan one it is deemed op and mega nerfed such as the Oxide or Huggin.

I fought so many 1 vs 1s in qp in my is lights against other is and clan lights I've got counter builds and mechs for almost all the more common builds and mechs seen. For clan mechs the ACH is king with pir and mlg at two and third. IS have the lct-1e/PB,raven 3L or wolfhound 2 that can some what compete and win a 1 vs 1 with any chance of winning.

Urbie gets special mention only because it has medium mech level of armor. Compare just the Jenner-Oxide vs 2c variants using the exact same build or as close as the game lets you make it:

OXIDE srm4s

JR7-IICsrm4sA

The clan version due to clan tech as a nice 4.80 tons free which means you can add more weapons/ammo/hs/bap or whatever you want but if you go with the more common build:

JR7-IICsrm4sB

It has nearly double the fire power and jump jets. Bet on the 2c to win even if it take significant damage. Mech diversity won't happen for lights due to clans' better tech and to general lights op threads. The only real difference is pilot skill where some one with hours of using a mech chassi and build vs someone who just started using a mech chassi and build.

Edit: Re-scale video. just see how much bigger most lights got.

Edited by JediPanther, 20 May 2018 - 04:48 PM.

[Kiiyor]

I think it's due to the nature of lights themselves.

They're fairly borderline as far as average performance goes, and generally, it's much harder to perform consistently in a light than the other classes - despite what the frothing at the mouth assault-mech-driving-no-rear-armour crowd will tell you.

This makes the gap between the top lights and the lower performing ones far more noticeable. The PIR and the MLX are in a pretty good place right now, especially as they can boat baby dakka, so it's natural for light pilots to gravitate towards these machines.

Edited by Kiiyor, 20 May 2018 - 05:23 PM.

[R5D4]

Already been mentioned but bares reiteration

1) Re-scale - About the only lights you're seeing now are the 25 tonners because they got smaller rather than larger (correlation???)

2) SPL Nerf - Small Pulse was being abused on the Nova so they nerfed it for everything rendering most builds ineffective

3) Agility Nerfs - Some of these have been rolled back but not all of them and the combination of BIG bodies and bad agility has been a further determent to the light mechs.

[Nightbird]

Only the brawling lights are any good, the scouting lights have no game mode that uses them. Not even the scouting game mode, which is mostly medium brawlers/streak boats.

[Alexander of Macedon]

BrunoSSace, on 20 May 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

Have you not seen me using my Ravens? I have quite a collection of IS light mechs.

I still use my RVN-4X with double LPLas. It's one of the lights I'm most successful with.

That doesn't mean that the chassis hasn't been run into the ground over the years, or that it's competitive against top performers at an equal level of skill. The Huginn has been a laughingstock for ages and PGI still nerf it because it was good once. The 3L is now pretty much the exclusive domain of people using ancient meta guides and perennial 800m spotlight snipers who blame their teams for losses. I think I might actually be the only person who has played the 4X without an AC/20 meme build in a year or more. The 2X might be a mediocre skinny medium if anyone remembered that it existed.

[mistlynx4life]

Nightbird, on 20 May 2018 - 06:18 PM, said:

Only the brawling lights are any good, the scouting lights have no game mode that uses them. Not even the scouting game mode, which is mostly medium brawlers/streak boats.

This.

If you want to see a variety of Lights on the battlefield then incentivize non-damage-dealing tactics or other things Lights can do.

I can hurl my MLX-Prime into the Red Charlie Lance and do a dance that will distract them completely for sixty seconds, allowing my team to crush the rest of their team and then, as I finally succumb to the mortal wounds I signed on for when I hopped in my Light 'mech, take solace as I watch them fall, one my one, to focus fire from my eleven comrades. This tactical death has, hands-down, won the match... and I make a paltry amount of c-bills/xp for it compared to the folks who just shot things.

I can squirrel, too, with my Spider or Locust and cause the Reds to break formation or take their eyes off my Bigger Buddies, thus securing the win, and, again, I get so much less of a payout. UAVs, caps, cells, NARCs, squirreling, etc. - these things don't even come close to the sort of payout that dealing raw damage will net in the end. Rightfully so - it's a tactical shooter, after all - but then don't pretend that so many of these Lights have any real value beyond nostalgia or just fun (which is the most important, in my opinion, but the point still stands).

And so help me if this turns into another MGs OP thread... lol

[Nightbird]

yeah the myst lynx is a tough light to pilot...

I'm doing well this season with the Cheeta, 41 games, 6WLR, 12KDR. Having the dopey asps with ST bombs to shoot certainly helped.

[Averen]

Nightbird, on 20 May 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

yeah the myst lynx is a tough light to pilot...

I'm doing well this season with the Cheeta, 41 games, 6WLR, 12KDR. Having the dopey asps with ST bombs to shoot certainly helped.

Going back to the game right now, what weapons would you recommend for a cheetah? Is the 6MG worth it? What kind of laser; are heavy meds interesting, are lpulse to weak??

[Prototelis]

Averen, on 21 May 2018 - 01:49 AM, said:

Going back to the game right now, what weapons would you recommend for a cheetah? Is the 6MG worth it? What kind of laser; are heavy meds interesting, are lpulse to weak??

6 ersmall is as close as you can get to the classic cheetah.

6 machine gun + 3 heavy med is pretty damn good.

6 heavy small is also good if you aren't being focused

[Averen]

Prototelis, on 21 May 2018 - 05:10 AM, said:

6 ersmall is as close as you can get to the classic cheetah.

6 machine gun + 3 heavy med is pretty damn good.

6 heavy small is also good if you aren't being focused

Thanks, builds make sense to me. 6HMG + 2 heavy med is what I'm currently using; ECM is too useful.^^

[FLG 01]

Not disagreeing with any of the previous posts, I just would like to highlight another problem: the Mech selection itself.

The last four lights were Piranha, Osiris, Cougar, and Javelin. The Piranha is nice if perhaps niche; the Osiris and Cougar are pure fanservice and of little use (one is redundant, the other just bad); the Javelin is a good chassis but somewhat underquirked. And that's all the releases we had the last 12 months!

PGI rarely releases lights, and those need to be well chosen. Unfortunately fan service seems more important than actual gameplay needs. The Flea also does very little to diversify the light Mech range; a jump capable 25t Mech would have done much more for the IS, but we got what effectively is a Locust variation.

And seeing that the Hollander is the most requested light Mech, I don't think the community understands how lights actually play in MWO resulting in useless fan service once more.

[Bowelhacker]

I've said it before - Piranhas are a ******* war crime.

But I do love my Javelin.

[Dragonporn]

PIRs are a bit too powerful, gotta agree on that, but I see all kinds of Lights in games I play: Urbies, Myst Lynxes, Arctic Cheetahs, Commandos, Locusts, Ravens, Jenners, Javelins, Osiris and etc. But what I do not understand is why percentage of Lights for matchmaking is usually low.

Personally running Jenner IIC, Raven, Cougar (which sadly appeared bucket) and recently got myself Osiris. As I said, Cougar feels rather weak, and my Raven is built almost entirely for support/being annoying A-hole for the enemy team, but still I can do quite well in it, while Jenner IIC and Osiris (unskilled) are downright monstrously overpowered. I'm not big fan of Lights myself, but I can definitely say that those are THE most forgiving weight category in the game. When I recently got jumped by 3 Meds and 1 Light in my Osiris, I managed to get away with minimal damage, lived through entire round, made 3 kills and didn't even lose one component. These are the only types of mechs that can survive face contact with several mechs, and can get outta there alive and even score some kills while being surrounded by whole enemy team. No way in hell you can pull something like this in any other weight category mech. Suffice to say that Piranha is the only type of mech, which can reliably go over 900+ damage and loads of kills, on par with cheesy Assaults like Anni every time.

Though some more Lights in the game would be good for variety. Flea is coming soon anyway.

Edited by Dragonporn, 21 May 2018 - 07:24 PM.

[LordNothing]

i think much of the problem is that lights are kind of shoehorned into an anti-assault role that is very meta sensitive. if lights could to light things and get paid for it, maybe it would be better.

[SuperMCDad]

mistlynx4life, on 20 May 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

If you want to see a variety of Lights on the battlefield then incentivize non-damage-dealing tactics or other things Lights can do.

I can hurl my MLX-Prime into the Red Charlie Lance and do a dance that will distract them completely for sixty seconds, allowing my team to crush the rest of their team and then, as I finally succumb to the mortal wounds I signed on for when I hopped in my Light 'mech, take solace as I watch them fall, one my one, to focus fire from my eleven comrades. This tactical death has, hands-down, won the match... and I make a paltry amount of c-bills/xp for it compared to the folks who just shot things.

I can squirrel, too, with my Spider or Locust and cause the Reds to break formation or take their eyes off my Bigger Buddies, thus securing the win, and, again, I get so much less of a payout. UAVs, caps, cells, NARCs, squirreling, etc. - these things don't even come close to the sort of payout that dealing raw damage will net in the end. Rightfully so - it's a tactical shooter, after all - but then don't pretend that so many of these Lights have any real value beyond nostalgia or just fun (which is the most important, in my opinion, but the point still stands).

And so help me if this turns into another MGs OP thread... lol

This.

My light of choice though is the Javelin, normally running an SRM12 or 4SPL/SRM8 build in the case of the 'Hi There'. Sometimes the laser vomit varieties for a change. They are nowhere near OP or Meta, but they are fun, running at close to 150 kph. It's always a bit of a crap shoot as to whether you are going to get one-shot by a double goose, or several kills in a given game, but really it's the stuff that Misty mentioned that I feel we are there for.

Disrupting and distracting during a push (hopefully pushing anyway). Holding up assaults from getting to the fighting. Capturing points and getting fuel cells. Getting back to try to stop a base capture.

OP is right though about lack of diversity. There are a few lights you see around, but the majority only seem to come up occasionally when a fool like me decides to bring them out.

Edited by SuperMCDad, 21 May 2018 - 05:39 PM.

[FupDup]

LordNothing, on 21 May 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

i think much of the problem is that lights are kind of shoehorned into an anti-assault role that is very meta sensitive. if lights could to light things and get paid for it, maybe it would be better.

Paying lights lots of spacebucks for pressing the R key for friendly Lurmboat potatoes wouldn't be a very compelling reason to use the weight class. Especially not the slow ones like the Puma and Urbie.

They need to be effective at fighting. Not necessarily toe-to-toe starefest arm-wrestle fighting, but some sort of guerilla fighting. This is a first person shooter. People enjoy shooting. Shooting is fun.