14 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

"Hey, we're going to mega-nerf clan lasers"
*next week*

"Hey, we're putting clan laser mechs on sale"



*golf clap*

[El Bandito]

Technically a lot of those Clan mechs on sale do not boat lasers by default.

[Asym]

by default? We now have default builds??? I thought the Nova Cat (MW4), Nova & Stormcrow primes, Wolfhound, Firemoth, Flashman and Awsome (MW4) were the default laser boats? I could add the SNA but it seems that it is a LRM boat now although many have used it as a laser boat....

Hey EL, which ones did I miss that were 'designed to be laser boats" originally??? What are the laser boats in BT?

[PocketYoda]

You do realize that this boating crap is helping kill the game right..

[Eisenhorne]

Samial, on 24 May 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

You do realize that this boating crap is helping kill the game right..

Of all the reasons the game is dwindling in players, boating is not near the top.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Eisenhorne, on 24 May 2018 - 05:51 AM, said:

Of all the reasons the game is dwindling in players, boating is not near the top.

Exactly. I have about 6000 battle in since closed beta (and 2500 more back before open beta) which is a drop in the ocean compared to some players but in those 6000 battle I have never once had a moment where I was like, "OMG that F'ing LASER VOMIT NEEDS TO GO!!!!!!!!" About the only reaction I have had was "Woah, that did alot of damage" and just carried on with the fight. However I have said, "Woah that did alot of damage" when I got hit by a Dual Heavy Gauss or 2-4 UACs or LRMs or ATMs or SRMs or....well you get the picture because lets face it, it isn't just lasers that can pump out the hurt in a very short time.

So I said it before, and I will say it again. This is a non-issue. There is no need for this change. There is no need to piss off half the playerbase. Lastly, there are a hell of alot of things much more important to address like mass MGs (hehe had to add that in since I do RAGE when I get taken out in 5 seconds by a Mech mounting 6-12 MGs) or the lack of maps, etc.

Speaking of the playerbase, I wonder how many people PGI has lost due to the frequent nerfs and drastic changes to weapons, engine desyncs, mech stats, etc. I know I got so frustrated at all the changes at one point that I quit for something like 6-8 months and almost didn't return so there has to be alot of people who just threw up their hand and said, "They just broke my favorite mechs, now I am not having fun any more. Screw it, I am outta here." The point is, drastic changes that end up nerfing what people have come to enjoy is the easiest and fastest way to lose players."

[Bud Crue]

Samial, on 24 May 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

You do realize that this boating crap is helping kill the game right..

Lets pretend this is the case.
That “this boating crap” is helping to kill the game.

So, just what exactly am I supposed to do with the 20 lights, 14 mediums, 14 heavies and handful of assaults- just in the IS side of the tech division, mind you- that can carry only a single class of weapons? Those numbers, by the way, don’t include the practical boats either (e.g. mechs like a Quickdraw 5K whose singe CT missile mount or the various Grasshoppers with their single head missile mount, that are rarely used); add such mechs into the mix and you will be approaching about a third of all IS mechs. Then we add the the single weapon clan battlemechs (I assume we can’t count Omni mechs that could be made to run a variety of weapons with the purchase of additional omnipods) and the numbers get even higher.

Do we just eliminate these no other choice “boats” and refund purchases? Make subjective calls on which ones are problematic and which ones aren’t? Let PGI decide how we run them? What are we supposed to do with them that doesn’t result in, as you put it, “helping to kill the game”?

[KodiakGW]

There is no logic anymore. It’s the devs and the small group of people they listen to steering the ship. The small group that says “git gud” to anyone pointing out flaws in the way things are implemented, that use the word “blackmail” when someone spells out how they could get players back and get them to spend more money, that search the internet for technical terms to shut down any criticism to their criticism that is guilty of the same logical fallacy they are accusing the critic of...even though they are not criticizing, but telling that person to review research already done and do some themselves. All to cover up the fact that their position and logic is weak, and it is one of the reasons why players are bleeding.

Until the devs wake up and realize these people are doing them a disservice, you’re going to see the same bad decisions being made.

[Asym]

A lot of this discussion goes back to "roles". When the benefit of "roles" starts to fade, the tool they use is "balance"; which infers that there is equality and that degrades 'roles" even faster... Roles and equality are opposites.

MWO lost the concept of roles years ago and since, all they talk about is balance and meta; which is the effect of balance run amok and a complete loss of roles.... I will use "light mechs" as an example:

Lights can now directly fight Assaults and live. Which means that lights have no "traditional or lore accepted" role. Since there are no equally based rewards for the traditional or lore role, and damage or kills are all that matter, the light role now is kill or damage. Isn't that the same as an Assault? That causes a cascading effect in the entire game ! What do mediums do now? How about heavies and their intended roles? Of course, PGI killed heavy agility and that was their quintessential asset.... Assault now are all alone in most cases because everyone else is chasing kills or damage..... No roles = anarchy.

Roles are the logic that ties the physics of the game together... As roles fade you hear the death knell and that is the word "balance"........roles and balance have little in common because there is suppose to be a "great reward" for a "great risk" and if a light has no "great reward" for being fragile, what's the point? And, since there is no role "point" anymore, lights need to be "balanced" so as to be able to create damage and kill more effectively to remain relevant or there would be no one playing lights at all ! Do you see the circular logic going on?

Game after game is failing because they are all chasing balance instead of roles. They are going the wrong way IMO..... Variation is a lot more exciting than sameness.....there must be more than one goal in a game for it to remain vibrant and exciting.... Conformity is boring.

[lazorbeamz]

Clan lasers need no nerfing at all. Keep the things diffirent and each with its own flavor.

[Xetelian]

Asym, on 24 May 2018 - 08:40 AM, said:

A lot of this discussion goes back to "roles". When the benefit of "roles" starts to fade, the tool they use is "balance"; which infers that there is equality and that degrades 'roles" even faster... Roles and equality are opposites.

MWO lost the concept of roles years ago and since, all they talk about is balance and meta; which is the effect of balance run amok and a complete loss of roles.... I will use "light mechs" as an example:

Lights can now directly fight Assaults and live. Which means that lights have no "traditional or lore accepted" role. Since there are no equally based rewards for the traditional or lore role, and damage or kills are all that matter, the light role now is kill or damage. Isn't that the same as an Assault? That causes a cascading effect in the entire game ! What do mediums do now? How about heavies and their intended roles? Of course, PGI killed heavy agility and that was their quintessential asset.... Assault now are all alone in most cases because everyone else is chasing kills or damage..... No roles = anarchy.

Roles are the logic that ties the physics of the game together... As roles fade you hear the death knell and that is the word "balance"........roles and balance have little in common because there is suppose to be a "great reward" for a "great risk" and if a light has no "great reward" for being fragile, what's the point? And, since there is no role "point" anymore, lights need to be "balanced" so as to be able to create damage and kill more effectively to remain relevant or there would be no one playing lights at all ! Do you see the circular logic going on?

Game after game is failing because they are all chasing balance instead of roles. They are going the wrong way IMO..... Variation is a lot more exciting than sameness.....there must be more than one goal in a game for it to remain vibrant and exciting.... Conformity is boring.

How do you maintain non-damage 'roles' in a damage based game? MWO has always been about damage, damage has always been what rewarded the most match score, cBills, and XP. You can't end a match very often without dying, especially skirmish, so how is a non-damage mech supposed to compete?


Role Warfare is great for warfare games but this is a mech shooting 'sim' that caters to a crowd that wants to play a FPS but can't compete in CSGO.

[Haipyng]

Xetelian, on 24 May 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

How do you maintain non-damage 'roles' in a damage based game? MWO has always been about damage, damage has always been what rewarded the most match score, cBills, and XP. You can't end a match very often without dying, especially skirmish, so how is a non-damage mech supposed to compete?

PGI did this to themselves, when they removed Game Mode choice they made it difficult to play other game modes. Now even when they do come up, 90% of the team plays it like Skirmish anyway. As you say, damage is the only thing that is rewarded well in the game. There is little care if the team wins, as long as people make their damage. No need for ECM, AMS, Spotting, Scouting, Fast Capping, etc.

Xetelian, on 24 May 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

Role Warfare is great for warfare games but this is a mech shooting 'sim' that caters to a crowd that wants to play a FPS but can't compete in CSGO.

MWO started out as something a bit different, there used to be a very active subset of alternate game mode players until choice was eliminated in the name of fast queue times and voting instituted. Your right in that most MWO players don't want to play CS:GO. Games that let you just aim in one spot and wait for someone to come around a corner for a instant headshot bore us. Many of us are old school gamers. We may be old farts, but we care about the franchise.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Haipyng, on 24 May 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

PGI did this to themselves, when they removed Game Mode choice they made it difficult to play other game modes. Now even when they do come up, 90% of the team plays it like Skirmish anyway. As you say, damage is the only thing that is rewarded well in the game. There is little care if the team wins, as long as people make their damage. No need for ECM, AMS, Spotting, Scouting, Fast Capping, etc.



MWO started out as something a bit different, there used to be a very active subset of alternate game mode players until choice was eliminated in the name of fast queue times and voting instituted. Your right in that most MWO players don't want to play CS:GO. Games that let you just aim in one spot and wait for someone to come around a corner for a instant headshot bore us. Many of us are old school gamers. We may be old farts, but we care about the franchise.

Your pretty much on the money. PGI had a choice when they designed this game. Us Founders wanted alot more depth, detail and complexity added to the game and even some actual roleplay characteristics as well. PGI however said, "Screw you Founders, you aren't the demographic we are designing the game for" (They actually told us this, no joke), took our, I think it was 5 million dollar worth of founders pack sales money and invested most of it in other projects. Next thing we knew, we have ESports and apparently the demographic they wanted was the CS:GO players or whatever flavor of the month FPS shooter fanbois you can name and thus the current MWO was born.

I enjoy the game and still buy probably at least half the mechpacks they offer each year but PGI really did us founders and anyone else who actually cared about the franchise a massive disservice with this game and the blunt truth is I am still salty about it to be honest. However, like I keep saying over and over, we have what we have. It is time to stop with the major changes which just generally piss off the player base even more. The game has been out 5 years. We are past the whole Beta point of this game and honestly the general core game play is good enough or at least it has been good enough to keep me investing money. So stop with the nerfs. Stop fixing crap by breaking other crap. Focus on things that make the game more interesting and fun. Give us more than 1 map a year. Add tons of maps. Try to improve FW a bit. Focus on small things that improve what we have instead of trying to reinvent the wheel and for the love of good, stick that whole Esports idea where the sun don't shine because THAT and nothing else, is what is killing the game.

[Asym]

Xetelian, on 24 May 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

How do you maintain non-damage 'roles' in a damage based game? MWO has always been about damage, damage has always been what rewarded the most match score, cBills, and XP. You can't end a match very often without dying, especially skirmish, so how is a non-damage mech supposed to compete?


Role Warfare is great for warfare games but this is a mech shooting 'sim' that caters to a crowd that wants to play a FPS but can't compete in CSGO.

Scouts die all of the time and create damage..... But, what makes a scout a scout is in that there should be rewards greater than damage and kills for them... TAG'ing an enemy. Spotting each and ever bad guys for IDF or location. Capping bases or points.... for support mechs: say a MDD with missiles: KMDD and damage from the IDF weapons scores higher than direct fire weapons..... Assaults kill stuff and their points come from killing stuff. Mediums and Heavies are almost light and almost assaults and live and get the most point if they are "on the flanks" of an action. Mediums get a lot of points for rear area security against lights. You get the point.

right now, it's all kills and damage.........so, we don't need anything else........... How boring. Yes, it is a FPS now that Solaris has dropped and there are very few opportunities for teams anymore.....no teams, no roles....

[Prototelis]

Samial, on 24 May 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

You do realize that this boating crap is helping kill the game right..

Nothing would kill this game harder than forcing everyone into **** bracket and lore builds.

Boating has been a thing in the game series for as long as it has had multiplayer.

What is killing this game;

incessant whining about everything that can "bad touch."
Peeps that literally believe piloting an assault should grant you one touch death to all lesser robuts
Grognards that wanted a game that plays more like World of Warcraft era mmos and not a fps
Players that refuse to believe they are bad at the game, show no real interest in improvement, but still cry when they lose


There is no balance dart board, it's balance based on ***** a community curated for crybabies.

Any balance based on the lowest levels of play only helps the people on top.

Edited by Prototelis, 25 May 2018 - 01:41 AM.