43 replies to this topic

[eminus]

why is it that IS Medium Laser has a cooldown of 3.5 while the Large laser only has 3.1 and even the ER-Large Laser only has 3.4 cooldown?

Edited by eminus, 26 May 2018 - 09:54 PM.

[MechaBattler]

I don't really remember the reasoning for it. But if I had to guess PGI felt it was too efficient for just 1 ton. I think the Clan lasers were also hit.

[cougurt]

because PGI is very silly. and yeah, it's the same for clan ER mediums vs ER larges.

[Mortalcoil]

PGI looked at their spreadsheets and saw that people were using the medium laser too much.

Well if something is being used too much it must be nerfed! Thought PGI, and so they nerfed it.

Who cares if the reason were using them was because of the severe ghost heat and weight restrictions of large lasers. Things that are popular must be overpowered, and there nerfed! It is the PGI way.


That's what PGI does. They look at their spreadsheets and make changes based on them.

[eminus]

Mortalcoil, on 26 May 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

PGI looked at their spreadsheets and saw that people were using the medium laser too much.

Well if something is being used too much it must be nerfed! Thought PGI, and so they nerfed it.

Who cares if the reason were using them was because of the severe ghost heat and weight restrictions of large lasers. Things that are popular must be overpowered, and there nerfed! It is the PGI way.


That's what PGI does. They look at their spreadsheets and make changes based on them.

[El Bandito]

MechaBattler, on 26 May 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

I don't really remember the reasoning for it. But if I had to guess PGI felt it was too efficient for just 1 ton. I think the Clan lasers were also hit.

This is correct. 1 ton weapon doing 5-7 damage was too efficient for PGI.

[Weeny Machine]

Mortalcoil, on 26 May 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

PGI looked at their spreadsheets and saw that people were using the medium laser too much.

Well if something is being used too much it must be nerfed! Thought PGI, and so they nerfed it.

Who cares if the reason were using them was because of the severe ghost heat and weight restrictions of large lasers. Things that are popular must be overpowered, and there nerfed! It is the PGI way.


That's what PGI does. They look at their spreadsheets and make changes based on them.

Nope. The secret is: light mechs use mostly medium lasers. Guess the rest...

[GoatHILL]

This is the direct reason why clan laser vomit has taken over. IS had DPS you could pressure clan mechs, we lost our DPS and the meta shifted to a poking play style.

[Elizander]

It is to make sure that it still deals 5 damage (close to what it does in the tabletop) while still having less DPS than a Large Laser.

[Averen]

Large Laser is 5 times the weight, so makes sense.
It's a bit ridiculous in that context that PGI didn't yet nerf the clan lasers, though. I guess 1 ton 7 damageis fine.

Edited by Averen, 27 May 2018 - 02:28 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

Averen, on 27 May 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

Large Laser is 5 times the weight, so makes sense.
It's a bit ridiculous in that context that PGI didn't yet nerf the clan lasers, though. I guess 1 ton 7 damageis fine.

There are two ways to count damage. Damage per ton and damage per heat. Neither is more important then the other one because you cant really shoot overheated either. Clans get damage per ton advantages. IS gets damage per heat advantages. Plus the bonus armor ofc.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 27 May 2018 - 02:43 AM.

[El Bandito]

lazorbeamz, on 27 May 2018 - 02:42 AM, said:

There are two ways to count damage. Damage per ton and damage per heat. Neither is more important then the other one because you cant really shoot overheated either. Clans get damage per ton advantages. IS gets damage per heat advantages. Plus the bonus armor ofc.

DPH doesn't matter when trading cause you have all the time in the world to cool off behind cover. Which is why Clanners have clear edge at midrange. And 2-slot DHS + lighter/smaller Clan tech means that Clanners can cool off fast. My Hellbringer has 14 external DHS + 78 alpha, while my Thunderbolt has 8 external DHS + 52 alpha.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 May 2018 - 04:37 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Averen, on 27 May 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

Large Laser is 5 times the weight, so makes sense.
It's a bit ridiculous in that context that PGI didn't yet nerf the clan lasers, though. I guess 1 ton 7 damageis fine.

As always another argument based on cherry picked number and over simplified to the nth degree.

So to refute your statement, noit doesn't make sense because there are other advantages the LL has over the ML like range. Also there are the number of hardpoints available on a mech to consider. Some mechs have alot of available weight and very few hardpoints while other have very little weight an alot of hard points. So if you want greater range, you paid the price in tonnage or if your limited on hard points you again pay the price in tonnage in order to maximize your damage per hard point count.

As for Clan ER MLs, you pay a very hefty price for that 7 damage in terms of just about every other stat the cER ML has. Very slow cooldown, very long beam duration and very high heat generation.

So when your talking balance, talk about all the factors. Don't just say, "7 damage is too much damage for 1 ton" or "ML are too efficient compared to LLs" because neither statement goes into enough detail for it to be considered true.

[MechaBattler]

Averen, on 27 May 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

Large Laser is 5 times the weight, so makes sense.
It's a bit ridiculous in that context that PGI didn't yet nerf the clan lasers, though. I guess 1 ton 7 damageis fine.

Clam ERLL is 4 seconds and Clam ERMedium is 4.5 seconds. So they also got nerfed.

[Koniving]

Welp for 5 tons I can have 25 damage from from 5 medium lasers.
Or I could have a single large laser doing 9 damage...

Huh.
What's the better choice?

[Khobai]

7 damage for 1 ton is still a bit much

CERML should only do 6 damage. but with less heat and shorter beam duration to match.

Quote

As for Clan ER MLs, you pay a very hefty price for that 7 damage in terms of just about every other stat the cER ML has. Very slow cooldown, very long beam duration and very high heat generation.

but when you have multiple clan laser vomit mechs that can all focus the same target, they reach a critical mass of sorts, where they kill enemy mechs so quickly that those downsides just dont matter much.

thats why the alpha strike damage potential of clan laser vomit needs to be lowered.

Quote

Welp for 5 tons I can have 25 damage from from 5 medium lasers.
Or I could have a single large laser doing 9 damage...

Huh.
What's the better choice?

to be fair the large laser has almost twice the range, thats mostly what youre paying the extra tonnage for.

the large laser can do damage at ranges where the medium lasers do no damage at all.

at 540m+ a single large laser is definitively better than 5 medium lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2018 - 09:28 AM.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 27 May 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:

Welp for 5 tons I can have 25 damage from from 5 medium lasers.
Or I could have a single large laser doing 9 damage...

Huh.
What's the better choice?

You're ignoring the heat, range, hardpoint, and critslot disadvantages.

You'd make a great fit for the PGI balancing team.

[Nightbird]

Nothing wrong here.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 27 May 2018 - 09:12 AM, said:

You're ignoring the heat, range, hardpoint, and critslot disadvantages.

You'd make a great fit for the PGI balancing team.

True. In terms of heat, PGI made that a case, it wouldn't be nearly as drastic otherwise.

Crit-slot, sure. But if you're comparing the weapons in an isolated case, then the slots matter as much as whether its green or blue or pink or brown.

Range is a fair thing to compare. 5 tons and longer range and less damage, or 5 tons with shorter range and significantly greater damage..

But where it really comes into play is hardpoints. The thing is with the fact that 1 energy hardpoint can hold 1 energy weapon of any size, however, doesn't really give much way considering that we have many machines with 9 or more of them.

Although overall... the real issue is that they can be fired together and used to be ready to fire at almost the same time.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 27 May 2018 - 09:51 AM, said:

True. In terms of heat, PGI made that a case, it wouldn't be nearly as drastic otherwise.

If you're referring to TT values, even then you'd still be making 15 heat instead of 8.

Koniving, on 27 May 2018 - 09:51 AM, said:

Crit-slot, sure. But if you're comparing the weapons in an isolated case, then the slots matter as much as whether its green or blue or pink or brown.

Critslots are as fair of a metric to use as tonnage because it's a mechlab opportunity cost, especially on higher-end mechs that have excessive tonnage but a lack of free slots.

Koniving, on 27 May 2018 - 09:51 AM, said:

But where it really comes into play is hardpoints. The thing is with the fact that 1 energy hardpoint can hold 1 energy weapon of any size, however, doesn't really give much way considering that we have many machines with 9 or more of them.

On the Clan side you might have many machines with 9+, but on the IS side it usually still caps out around 7-8 (and in those cases nobody in their right mind is going to boat 8 Medium Lasers on a Black Knight). IS are much more hardpoint limited than the Clams and will likely stay that way (PGI ain't gonna inflate the old mechs).

Another aspect of hardpoints is that those 9+ hardpoints are likely to be spread across multiple locations, which can mess up convergence and/or exposure time depending on their exact positioning.