15 replies to this topic

[Dran Dragore]

Dear PGI,
i just got a Match where i once again tried the ATM Missiles for Clan Mechs. Took an Highlander IIC with 3 ATM12 as Main Weapons on Alpine Peaks supported with 4 ER Med Lasers. The enemy Team got two AMS Mechs in their line. The problem with the ATMs are that they are too easy to counter compared to LRMs, SRMs or MRMs. None of my Salvos get to the enemy Mechs, not even any of them (and i wasnt the only Missile Mech on my side, so the enemy AMS doesnt focused only on my salvos). Thats realy frustrating when you spend so much Tonnage to a weapon which isnt able to fire indirect, got slow missiles, had a minimum range which is an hard issue while you only can effective fire them on Brawl range (1000 Meter range is fine, but be honest, usualy you dont waste your ammo to this range and even if you fire mostly nothing happens). But the biggest problem is that none of them get to the enemy if they just got at least 3-5 AMS.

MRMs are too many for shooting them down by AMS. SRMs are too close for getting them. LRMs are mostly to many and too fast for shooting all of them.

So, as a suggestion: inrease the Hitpoints of ATMs and make them valuable for the massive ammount of tonnage you need for them. Or increase the Speed of the Missiles. Or remove the minimum range.

For the MRMs (even i like it realy to play them) think about reducing the Hitpoints per Missile. So AMS do at least a minimum of protection against them.

In general the Clan lacks of usefull weapons against the all purpose arsenal of the IS at the moment. There is nothing comparable to the RACs of the IS. Just an Dire Wolf with LBX2 or Ultra WITH THE QUICK SHOOT MACRO (!). But for me, i dont like this Macro because its kind of Exploit using or got a bad taste to me as cheating. If its meant that the AC2s are fireing so fast then implement it legaly without any Programm from outside.

I hope you think about implementing Weapons like the HAG 20-40, Plams Cannons for bringing the Clans to an level where they can bring some other weapons like the Laser Vomits and LBX Macro Machine AC2 Dires.

Just my humble opinion and is read by the developers...

[TheoLu]

Can't imagine how you're having issues with 3x ATM12s when I regularly get over 650 damage or more out of an Adder with 2x ATM 9s...

Consider looking out for mechs which are already being shot at with missiles by your teammates and coordinating your fire such that your ATMs go in under cover of LRMs, Streaks, MRMs or SRMs also. After all, 100 missiles coming in single-file are going to be much easier for the 2-3 AMS mechs to deal with than 100 missiles coming in all at once.

[Dran Dragore]

@ TheoLu: try it by yourself with 2 buddys: fire for 300-400 Meters with 3 ATM12 on an enemy where they got 3-5 AMS and see the result. We tried it this week and there is no much left of your missiles. Then do the same with 2 MRM40 and compare it. Sure, the MRMs dont have a lock and dont do homing. But be honest: at this range you dont need it and sometimes its an disadvantage when you need the time to lock up the enemy. All in all comes on top against the ATMs that ECM will also counter you. With MRMs you dont have this.

And yes, you can shoot the ATMs without an lock, but usualy i only do this when the enemy is shut down and i got a chance that they even will hit him.

Edited by Dran Dragore, 27 May 2018 - 03:03 AM.

[BTGbullseye]

Just look at my "location"... I'm with you on this.

[TheoLu]

Dran Dragore, on 27 May 2018 - 03:02 AM, said:

@ TheoLu: try it by yourself with 2 buddys: fire for 300-400 Meters with 3 ATM12 on an enemy where they got 3-5 AMS and see the result. We tried it this week and there is no much left of your missiles.

You know those Novas everyone got? A lot of people are running around with those with all three AMS still equipped. Now, fair enough, they mightn't be putting AMS Overload into their skills, but even so firing off my 18 ATM tubes at one from about 500M I'm still seeing about a quarter of the things hitting it. You've got literally twice as many missiles going after the guy, which means you'd have, what, about half hitting him for 36 damage?

That doesn't seem like a bad amount of damage to me at all, especially since if you have velocity and range nodes you'll get more missiles on target and if within the 'brawling distance' will do north of 54 damage per salvo. Against a mech like that, that's a deadly amount of damage per salvo, and it's a wide-bodied mech with no ECM of its own to break locks.

Now imagine you've got an Atlas peeking around a building with all his friendly AMS occluded by buildings. He's not going to have a particularly good time either.

Quote

Sure, the MRMs dont have a lock and dont do homing. But be honest: at this range you dont need it and sometimes its an disadvantage when you need the time to lock up the enemy.

ATMs are great at dealing with quicker light and medium mechs since they track quite well and at closer ranges will be devastating to these targets, especially since you've got the advantage of substantially more range than streaks provide and no nonsense of the missiles plowing into the ground instead of their target ala LRMs.

Quote

And yes, you can shoot the ATMs without an lock, but usualy i only do this when the enemy is shut down and i got a chance that they even will hit him.

It also works great against sniping asaults who you can't get a lock on but who aren't moving (much).

In essence, it sounds more to me as though you're willing to have balance broken to get ATMs to do what you want them to rather than learning how to use them effectively relative to the other missile options available.

Next thing you know we're going to have people asking for rocket launchers to be capable of locking onto ECMd mechs as though they had no ECM and to have STREAK-like tracking while only hitting a single randomized component on the target mech...

Edited by TheoLu, 27 May 2018 - 04:32 AM.

[BTGbullseye]

Telling us how to use an inefficient weapon, doesn't change that it's inefficient.

[TheoLu]

Believing something is inefficient because its counters are doing their job and you're not doing yours by learning how to use a weapon as it was designed to be used doesn't make it inefficient, it makes you inefficient.

"I don't know how to deal with AMS and think the enemy isn't sacrificing fitting capabilities and/or heat by fielding it, make ATMs better so I won't feel inadequate when using them!"

That's how your arguments sound to me so far. Make a more compelling argument and I might be convinced. I, personally, find MRMs comparatively worse than ATMs and even SRMs and would rather field SRMs on many mechs if I had to choose between those two, and again may even rather field ATMs than SRMs again depending on how I intend on playing and what mech I'm using.

[BTGbullseye]

Unless you're inside the 3-damage range, the ATMs are inherently worse than LRMs. Comparing them to IS weapons that use a completely different mechanic is stupid, not helpful.

For the weapon mechanics used by the ATMs, the cALRM is the best comparison, and when the LRMs (considered to be one of the worst weapons in the game) win out in more circumstances, it's time to reevaluate just how good the weapon actually is. Superior niche use does not make it a superior weapon.

[TheoLu]

I see where the issue lies now. If that account you're posting with is your only one, you seem to only play with assaults, and I can tell you now that using a lumbering mech is not going to yield good results with ATMs.

Ergo, you're potentially genuinely arguing from a position of ignorance. With how many matches you've seemingly played using smaller, quicker mechs where ATMs are more usable, I get the feeling you lack the experience with the things to have an informed opinion on them.

It's like someone arguing machineguns are useless when they keep trying to use them on slow heavy or assault mechs... obviously the things are going to be of less use if you can never get them to within their effective range. Put them on something small and quick, though, and well, just look at Piranhas and what those achieve...

Edited by TheoLu, 27 May 2018 - 06:29 AM.

[TheoLu]

I've seen people argue ATMs are terrible because you HAVE to expose yourself to make use of them, which is also untrue. People just don't learn how to fire their weapons properly and/or aren't willing to learn the finer points of the game's mechanics to use those to their advantage.

Example argument: "ATMs suck compared to LRMs because you can't shoot over things!"

Then there's me, shooting them over things.

[BTGbullseye]

I do indeed play Assaults a lot, but not to the exclusion of the other classes. I prefer certain styles of play, just like anyone else.

I have played to the top 500 of the leaderboard for every class at one point or another, and have tried a large variety of different builds for each class. I'm not stating this from an uneducated viewpoint.

[TheoLu]

Well, what precisely do you find 'inefficient' about ATMs then and why (give a thorough explanation of the 'why' with examples thereof).

I mean, let's look at Dran's argument in particular. He's complaining ATMs are worse off than LRMs because they've "got slow missiles". MEANWHILE, ATMs are 200m/s projectiles while LRMs are 190m/s ones, and only recently got there from 160m/s. So that's one argument of Dran's completely out of the window already.

Second, he complains about the weight of the launchers (and, presumably, ammo - since weapons like this are only a complete package when they can fire).

LRMs' ammo and ATMs' ammo are, in effect, the same weight per point of damage if one's firing the ATMs within their mid-damage bracket. That bracket's range extends out to 575M with range nodes. If one's within 310.5M with range nodes, however, you're getting substantially more damage points 'per ton of ammo'. This can potentially bring down your launchers to being at least on-par per ton with LRMs, or substantially better since their damage per point of heat, damage per second, damage concentration, damage actually landed etc can become superior to LRMs'.

That only leaves the launchers weighing substantially more and occupying substantially more slots as a basis.

Next, we've got LRM spread vs ATM spread. LRMs spread substantially more than ATMs, making them less effective against smaller targets. Worse, Clan and IS LRMs have a tendency to want to strike from above at ranges over roughly 230m (I still have to go test that some time to find the fire-flat range for Clan and IS LRMs). If you've got a fast-enough, small enough target which isn't painted, isn't NARCd, and you don't have Artemis, you're inherently going to have a bunch of your missiles either missing altogether or spreading their damage over a large portion of the target mech.

By the time you're putting Artemis on to make the things track better and reduce their spread so at least the latter is on par with ATMs (their tracking is still not going to be as-good when firing 'from above' on a smaller, fast-moving target) your launchers suddenly weigh 50% closer to ATMs' weight, all so you can actually try and get more damage on-target than on-floor.

If one wants to argue about their minimum range you have to keep in mind that while that mech is within your minimum range it should also ideally be within one of your teammates' potential line of fire, while it's still trying to prevent you from using your ATMs on it. If it dares move out of that range it begins exposing itself to those again until it can get into cover, break your lock somehow, or somehow gets out to range quick enough it can minimize the damage it will take. While it was still trying to get down to that range it was taking incrementally-more damage if it had to expose itself to get there.

Dran conveniently neglects to take into account MRMs are heavy launchers to field and have a pretty significant amount of heat to them, and worse they're practically-useless at range against smaller targets moving perpendicular since even the best pilots are going to have trouble properly leading their target to get an entire stream onto it. Worse so when the mech's torso twist/pitch speeds simply aren't up to it, since the majority of MRM launchers are ultimately in the torso rather than arm-mounted.

So while you, Bullseye, might not be arguing from a position of ignorance, Dran definitely seems to be doing so.

So I want to hear what your arguments are for why the things are 'inefficient'.

Edited by TheoLu, 27 May 2018 - 07:51 AM.

[Dran Dragore]

Quote

I mean, let's look at Dran's argument in particular. He's complaining ATMs are worse off than LRMs because they've "got slow missiles". MEANWHILE, ATMs are 200m/s projectiles while LRMs are 190m/s ones, and only recently got there from 160m/s. So that's one argument of Dran's completely out of the window already.

ok, be more specific on this point: if you are in 300-500m Range to the Enemy and fire your ATMs they are not fast enough to do any damage. They are just shoot down untill they reach the enemy. Point to you that LRMs are not so fast, but firering, lets say 2-3 LRM 20 (chainfire) some of them get through. With ATMs you dont get the same ammount of damage when doing it equaly. The benefit for the LRMs are that there are 40-60 Missiles with similar Hitpoints like the ATMs per Missile. With 3 ATM12 you just got 36 Missiles on the field with the same Hitpoints. It clear that in this condition every shoot down ATM hurts you more than with the LRMs.

And yes, you could fire all 3 ATM12 at once. The Problem is in this case the huge shadow heat you receive. I also have no problem with the issue that you have to expose or mostly expose yourself (yes, you can fire them sometimes with a little ammount of cover, depends on the situation. But its far away from the LRMs where you literaly can cover in a whole and spam missiles).

Sometimes the ATMs work. But they are sadly so easy to counter that i dont use them anymore for example in Faction Play Drop Deck. The problem is that compared with MRMs they are just a one trick pony. Meanwhile the MRMs are a jack of all trades for the IS. If it where somehow possible i would drive a Supernova with MRMs. I am, with honesty, not a bad player i think. And in Faction play, which i played mostly and liked mostly, my Clan Drop deck is far away from the versatileness of my IS Drop Deck. I need Mechs which works accurate for the needed map and situation. And on the Clan side there are just Laser Vomits, Dakka builds (as written above), double LBX20/SRM Brawlers, Sniperbuilds. Sometimes Lurmers. But i banned all ATM Mechs, all Ultra AC20, and some other awkward Weapons. That constricted myself to just a handfull builds. With my IS Dropdeck i have so much more variety that i anticipate myself playing again IS. And thats a little sad for the clans having weapons which are not played because of this disadvantage.

[TheoLu]

Consider when the ATMs are not countered by AMS though.

By the time you're within their medium range, they do slightly better damage-per-ton than LRMs do. When you're within their optimal range, they do more damage.

So they've got a specific niche which they fulfil.

One could argue in a similar fashion about the differences between heavy lasers, regular lasers, ER lasers and pulse lasers if one wanted. Or even the variety of PPCs the IS have. Each has a niche use, trading off some things for others.

And in ATMs' case, that's a relative-ease-of-countering (sort of, anyway) when AMS is being used by the enemy.

But now, consider this: if the enemy's using AMS, they've got one of two things going on with their mechs.

1. They've got (even more) ammo taking up slots, weight, and adding a risk of explosions causing that component and/or things in it to get damaged*
2. They're using laser AMS taking up heat capacity, increasing the heat management they've got to do

Now, you could argue that ATMs having so few missiles per salvo and their missiles having 'too little' HP is a problem because it means they're easier to nullify, but in my opinion that's kind of the point.

Consider that ton-for-ton, SRMs are even better than ATMs are in terms of relative damage output AND velocity. But, they've got the major failing point of having even fewer effective missiles. They do slightly less damage per missile, but their missiles travel twice as quick allowing them to break through AMS target-seeking some and the iron curtain for the rest.

Their trade-off? You can't use them outside of what's essentially ATMs' best range at all, they can't track at all, they'll never try to go over terrain for you at all.

If you increase ATMs' velocity, you potentially lessen SRMs' usefulness as people start fielding ATM 3s in place of SRM2/4s.
If you increase ATMs' HP, you potentially lessen LRMs' usefulness as people start fielding ATMs knowing within the mid-range bracket about-as-many ATMs will still make it onto the target as LRMs would have (in relative damage-per-ton terms, not raw damage output terms which the ATMs would trump the LRMs even more on in this scenario), and render the ATMs even more powerful relative to LRMs for closer-range use.

I cannot feasibly see a way for ATMs to be changed as they are right now which doesn't detract from both SRMs and LRMs' places in the Clan missile tree.

If you're having trouble dealing with people using AMS when you and your mates want to field ATMs in faction play, consider making scanning for AMS mechs and taking out their AMS a priority. Begin learning where the AMS is mounted on different mechs (not overly difficult) and where the ammo in the case of regular AMS modules might be stored.

And remember that while the enemy's fielding that AMS to deal with your ATMs, they're having to sacrifice something else in their builds just to accommodate it, which on some IS mechs means giving up ferro armour or endo-steel so they can get the slots, or running substantially hotter so they can run a laser AMS but keep their slots.

And if they happen to drop against groups which don't use a single missile at all, they can't very well compensate for their fits' shortcomings in the field the way an ATM user's group could focus on the people with the AMS first.

*Oh, and don't forget, since we're talking Clan vs IS 'advantages and disadvantages' now, consider those poor IS saps will have to also dump some C.A.S.E into whichever component they've got their AMS ammo in if they're not using laser-AMS, or they're going to run the risk of causing even more damage to their own mechs in the case of ammo explosions. That's another slot and a bit of weight gone if it's an issue for them.

Edited by TheoLu, 27 May 2018 - 03:45 PM.

[catsonmeth]

Yeah, no. ATMs have huge damage potential. AMS should be an effective counter.

[TibsVT]

Dran Dragore, on 27 May 2018 - 02:47 AM, said:

I hope you think about implementing Weapons like the HAG 20-40, Plams Cannons for bringing the Clans to an level where they can bring some other weapons like the Laser Vomits and LBX Macro Machine AC2 Dires.

Hoping that the Clans will ever be on-par with IS is a good joke.