154 replies to this topic

[stealthraccoon]

Because some of us potatoes like hard mode?

Yes, this is heavy-Clan-laser-alpha online, but sometimes a whiteknuckle thrill ride is what you need.

[JediPanther]

Because the speed they have wins matches in other game modes. A few heavies can do 120 but most mechs simply are too slow. Since the change of conquest where you need caps more than skirmish plus objectives I get more cry babies telling me stuff like don't die,go cap,save my *** because enemy light after me and other funny things. A mode where lights matter?

Incursion guess who gets "the job" of radar and jaming? Play with pugs who don't use those vs a team that does. Using them to your advantage is what it is for. Lights can also snipe at the bases and destroy them with the proper long range weapon and high or low attack angle avoiding triggering those 100% hit rate defenses.

Assault mode you can easily use your slow meat shields to slow the enemy and cap with a wolf pack or just send one light to decoy the enemy instead.

A good light mech scout can give early warning about meta mechs like dual h gass,ssrm,dual ac 20 and other such builds the team could focus fire removing those threats making it easier to finish off the rest of the enemy instead of taking heavy losses and damage or just losing out right.

I've got a locust set up for just scouting with only two er mls and xl 170. Maxed sensors mobility bap and a tc mk1 along with full uav and strikes in aux tree. It does nothing for direct damage or fighting other mechs but when I finally get that magical rare pug drop of experienced smart borg like hive minded pugs it can do great things in prioritizing enemy threads.

[Daggett]

Vesper11, on 09 July 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

This also works for meds, but lights, due to tonnage, often have to use light (usually knifefighting tier) weapons which means that they are at greater risk and unlike meds than can simply hide behind the hill/wall they were peeking from lights are at mercy of enemy skill. If, in my fast medium, I see a light harassing someone, I go after it, if it doesn't disengage immediately and run away it risks losing leg because fast mediums can keep with them long enough to slice their legs off.

That's true and the reason why many light pilots die so early. But what would you do if i'm not in the back of your team all alone, but rather on the outer flanks where i still have some support? More often than not my target either hunts me and walks into a surprise or he tries to evade me because he knows that i'm not too far away from my team to safely hunt me down. With some experience you are rarely at mercy of enemy skill even in knife-fighting distance.

The thing i love about lights is that you always dictate where and who you fight and that you can easily be where you are able to deal the most damage. And more often than not that's when you are right beside your pushing assaults and simply shoot what they shoot.

Vesper11, on 09 July 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

Nascar is bad example where fastest mechs shine and **** (but it's QP) tactic, I often wish team would stop to regroup in a good position into firing line and meet nascar champions with a few good alphas.

I agree, but since in reality nascar happens very often in QP if you want to do good consistently then you should choose a mech that profits from this environment. And for me that's not slow-as-heck assaults despite their massive firepower.

Vesper11, on 09 July 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

IMO, what lights need more is burst damage, not heat efficiency as they can disengage and cool down at any time.

While it's true that lights can afford to run away to cool down, it's wasting lots of precious time. I can't count the times where i had the opportunity to safely deal 100+ dmg to a distracted enemy but had not the heat reserves to do so. That's the real reason why the PIR-2 is so inferior to the PIR-1. In theory the PIR-2 can be built to do a staggered alpha of 97,5 with 15 HSL within 2,2s unskilled which btw is more than most assaults can do.

Here the raw burst damage is not the problem, but after the first shot cooldown takes ages which has the same effect as a direwolf crawling to the front: You can't fight and deal damage for a looong time. But the Direwolf at least can deal much more than 97dmg with it's heat capacity than the PIR-2 once it is in position.

And while the PIR-1 has almost no alpha, it can capitalize on every small chance it gets to deal damage. All the PIR-1 needs is an distracted enemy to do much more than 97 dmg without generating any heat which in turn enables it to go for the next opportunity instead of hiding for 20+ seconds.

Vesper11, on 09 July 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

it's distracting enemy right before the push when it's really dangerous, but I don't see a lot of those nowadays.

That's what i meant of cause. I was speaking of competent light pilots, not those who run off to die first behind enemy lines.

Edited by Daggett, 09 July 2018 - 09:08 AM.

[Lethe Wyvern]

Vesper11, on 09 July 2018 - 07:08 AM, said:

Trashcan isn't really a light, it's simply a very armored trashcan.

- "pseudolights" with sub 100 kph mostly used as mediums(lvom/srm/ssrm adder/kfx/cougar, mpl urbanmech, peep/lvom panther)
- "pseudomeds" with ~120+ kph used as lights (old ye spl+mg viper, splat/ssrm acw-1, mpl/ermed "mad fridge", mpl cic, splat assassins)
But to clarify: lights in the poll are only a weight category.

Edited by Lethe Wyvern, 09 July 2018 - 11:26 AM.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Lights have plenty of uses. Grabbing objectives. Butt stuff/Harassers. Spotters/Scouts. Picking off stragglers or wounded. Separating enemy groups. Well timed squirreling can decide a brawl. Chasing off other lights. Fun.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Can we please put these "what are lights for?!" nonsense to bed already? I just don't understand this loud and vocal segment of the MWO playerbase who couldn't be bothered to actually research what they're talking about, and instead spout off about how lights are supposed to be for scouting, or cleaning up vehicles and infantry, shouldn't be able to fight larger 'Mechs, and on and on and bloody on.

The lore never says anything like that. At all. Ever.

For the most part, specific 'Mechs are designed around specific roles. That is true of every weight class. Faster 'Mechs do tend to be better suited for recon and harassment roles; that is also true. However, not every light 'Mech is built for those roles... and not every 'Mech designed for those roles specifically proved to be limited to or by them.

From the Piranha's description on Sarna: "These are a serious threat to any foe on such a speedy 'Mech, especially if a Star of Piranhas operate in a pack, and such a large array allows the 'Mech to chew through an opponent's rear armor almost instantly. They are most deadly, however, to unarmored infantry, capable of wiping out an entire company in seconds." Because the ability of the 'Mech to defeat armor quickly is specifically mentioned, it is abundantly clear this is not intended to just be some kind of ultimate anti-infantry platform. Yes, it does that very well because the sort of MGs carried on 'Mechs make infantry into chunky salsa... but the writer went out of their way to highlight the Piranha's effectiveness against armored opponents. Ergo, the Piranha is intended for the role it is used for in MWO: that of a 'Mech killer.

Moving on.

The Solitaire, which we don't have yet in MWO, is a nasty piece of work. It carries a stock loadout of 1xHLL, 2xHML, and 1xHSL, and runs at 162kph (which, in MWO terms means it'd max out at 174kph after speed tweak). Its description defines its role thusly: "The Solitaire relies on a full compliment of heavy energy weapons. Even though the ten double heat sinks cannot possibly dissipate the heat, the typical warrior will move into position and then perform a full strike with the single Model X Heavy Large Laser, the Model II Heavy Small Laser, and the two Model V Heavy Medium Lasers." How does that not sound like exactly what striker lights currently do in MWO? Get in, puke up an alpha or two, get out. It's meant to kill 'Mechs.

The Urbanmech. It just had to be mentioned. Do we really need more detail here?

The Adder- primary configuration 2xCERPPC, which with TT's brokenly OP Clantech was a pair of 15-point hits... or the same firepower as carried by an Inner Sphere Awesome, but with better damage focus because the firepower was concentrated into fewer weapons. Most of its alternate configurations revolve around other long-range sniper and support configs, but all are built around at least medium-bore ACs, large energy weapons, and large missile racks. One's even got a HAG-20. The Cougar is a direct descendant of the Adder, which is also typically built arount pairs of large energy or missile weapons, pairs of medium ballistics, or single large ballistics (notably Gauss and UAC10) with backup weapons. These are pretty obviously designed as 'Mech killers, as they're far too slow for scouting roles and (with the exception of one Jihad-era Cougar variant) tend to carry weapons which aren't as well suited for fighting non-'Mech opponents.

The Jenner and the Panther are two of the most iconic Inner Sphere lights. The Jenner was designed as a fast striker, while the Panther was meant for direct fire support, and the DCMS often paired them up so that their Jenners would be able to rely on the slower Panthers to engage enemies at long range while they closed in to finish the job with their short-ranged weapons. From the Jenner's description: "A favorite tactic of Jenner lances was to gang up on larger 'Mechs and unleash a devastating alpha strike .... A few seconds later the attack would be repeated until finally the enemy was dead." Once again- that's MWO light gameplay in a nutshell.

Speaking of Jenners, the Wolfhound was a joint venture by the Davions and Steiners (predating the FedCom by a few years) to finally put a stop to marauding Jenner lances. So... another example of a 'Mech built to fight 'Mechs.

Then we have the Hollander, also not yet in MWO, which was designed as a mobile sniper in response to the Clans' use of the Kit Fox's alternate config. A in the same role. I'm pretty sure neither one was intended to use their Gauss rifle for infantry suppression.

So, to answer the original question... lights are here to kill 'Mechs. Just like everything else in this game. Killing 'Mechs is the core gameplay loop. It is worth noting that the Jenner, of all the lights in Battletech, was the first light 'Mech in MWO back when it only had a single example of each weight class. That is no accident. They could have given the Spider or the Commando first nod but instead picked the Jenner, famed for its ability to hunt and kill larger, heavier 'Mechs. The current use of lights in this game, as strikers and assassins, was not just intended- it was the entire point of their inclusion on day one. Was that enough emphasis, or should I have done that in red? Their other roles (recon, harassment, light fire support, etc), such as they are and to the extent that they exist in gameplay, were added later, as an afterthought.

[Nameless King]

Dumb poll is dumb.

[Prototelis]

Tell you what I use them for;

Backstabs
Harassing
Letting myself be lrm locked and using one piece of cover over and over again to waste their time, heat, and ammo
Breaking lines
Making people panic
Popping UAVS over the enemy team
Strike kiting (that is to say, using a strike in an attempt to get the enemy to move a certain way)
Demolishing isolated mechs
Peeling Potatos
Fighting other lights
Scouting enemy movement at the beginning of match

I go out of my way to be the biggest pain in the *** possible. (sometimes literally)

[Grus]

@ title: to mine salt ofcorse!!

Best game I've had was in my Death knell. 11kill and over 1k damage done... don't tell me lights can't do heavy lifting..

[Snowbluff]

Nightbird, on 09 July 2018 - 06:43 AM, said:

Light mechs in MWO act as flankers, back stabbers to slow assaults, and enemy formation disruptors.

I voted for "sneaky stuff" with this in mind.

[Alex Morgaine]

When a 120kph light is not "relevant" there is a problem. Most of my lights are as such considered not relevant. The few that are fast enough are considered "meta" or as close to "best in chassis" even though my other lights work fine. Standing in front of a HGR*2 Mech? No one in tier right mind should be tanking that if they can dodge. My non urbies can handle 81-120 fine. Not the best but any light that doesn't carry 8+ mg seems to be having geometry issues lately.

[S O L A I S]

The wording of that poll is hilarious.

Generally polls are set up with neutral wording very intentionally. Really hope you already know this and are going full troll.

[Revis Volek]

Vxheous, on 09 July 2018 - 05:41 AM, said:

Why is this even a poll?

Because we give people freedom to speak any dumb thought they want without consequences.


So every single idea (mostly dumb ones) can be telegraphed over and over and over again like reruns of Seinfeld.

Alex Morgaine, on 09 July 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

When a 120kph light is not "relevant" there is a problem. Most of my lights are as such considered not relevant. The few that are fast enough are considered "meta" or as close to "best in chassis" even though my other lights work fine. Standing in front of a HGR*2 Mech? No one in tier right mind should be tanking that if they can dodge. My non urbies can handle 81-120 fine. Not the best but any light that doesn't carry 8+ mg seems to be having geometry issues lately.

Avg speed of most of my lights anymore (IS especially with LFE) is like 118kph.


You are relying on lag shield to much and not your Skills as a pilot.


Also, OP.

We have light so i can pull 6 kills, 11000 dmg and feel like a god over the tater tots. Hard mode is best mode.

Edited by Revis Volek, 09 July 2018 - 03:02 PM.

[Alex Morgaine]

Stock engine lights :3

[JadePanther]

just gonna toss this out there.. but since the skill tree and its effects on ECM has had an effect on light mechs of making new ones and trial mechs bearing ecm on the potato side...

trial mechs locked into carrying ECM and wasting tonnage based on a system that is no longer in effect are a detriment to the team as the ecm they provide is fake and is just a false hope... How many trial cheetas are we seeing in this event atm.. dont count on the ecm they have to provide any lurm protection.. Instead its locked in dead weight that could be better spent on a heatsink...

ECM is sooo beneficial to light mechs and whatever role they play the skill tree requirements yet new light mechs that can carry it are better off without it until they've played like 30 matches and can dump enough skills into the tree to make ECM REAL..

so IMHO the role of light mechs are to get mashed like potatos until they can dump enough skills to get things they desperately need to survive and support.. The only light mechs i think are perofming well are the MG boats and jenners that can sport a good load of SRM.. without the ECM spotting is just useless to try as you get targeted really fast and lurmed..

[kuma8877]

They're here to kick *** and chew bubble gum....

[Phlynn]

Scouting has become irrelevant due to player choice and game design, not because it doesn't effect the fight. I have been in plenty of matches lost because we had no scouts and had to fight blind against a good scouting team. Most light mech players I see on the field are only interested in climbing between a big mechs butt cheeks and squeezing of a kill.

I have been in matches where the lights refused to press "R" because it would give away their position and make the backstabbing difficult. (the pilot's statement on mic or in chat - not my opinion).

When I play a light, I scout - and get very low scores because there isn't much reward in a game scaled to reward damage.

Edited by Phlynn, 09 July 2018 - 07:30 PM.

[Lethe Wyvern]

SCCOJake, on 09 July 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:

Spoiler

I'm going to second what Agent of Change said. We have discussed this before and are generally of the same mind. The light mechs don't actually serve much of a point in the current Quick Play/Team Play game modes. They might have a mathematical function in Faction Play, but for the majority of people they aren't actually very useful.

I admit that I'm still kind of new to the game, but its clear to me that unless you can find a particularly broken meta-mech build your lights are only their for harassing duty. Scouting is largely irreverent due to the fact that 99% of all games have the combat take place in the same location every time. You don't really need to know where the enemy is if everyone is going to the same grid square every game.

There are no worthwhile secondary objectives so the best a light can hope for is to prevent an enemy team from running down the clock on Domination maps before any shooting happens, or in rare cases, capturing enough points in conquest to win without having to do a team whip. That's it. Maybe you could make an argument for capturing the bases in Assault modes, but that's largely only a distraction tactic. In incursion lights typically aren't going to bring enough armor/firepower to knock out the defenses.

And then there is the fact that lights can actively detract from a teams chances for success. If a team packs too many lights then they won't have enough armor to share or enough firepower to dish out. And that's even if the lights stick with the deathball. If you don't bring enough tonnage to the fight you will typically lose. Not always, but usually.

So, lights don't really add much to the team, and they can even hurt the team in some situations. Thats the larger strategic overview from where I sit. As Agent said, you personally might do well in lights. You might love them and do amazing in them. But on the average, most people are either A] not running them much at all, or B] running them without any significant impact on the game or worse as a determent to their team. They are, sadly a niche mech at best and it would be really nice to see something positive done for them, but not just buffing their firepower or armor, they need a real role.

Daggett, on 09 July 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

Spoiler

In my experience light mechs are equally capable of contributing and even carrying than the other classes but are harder to play.

While most lights lack raw alpha they can mitigate this with their speed. Slower mechs have to stop firing regularly and for longer periods because of repositioning, while lights can fire much more often when played well. That's especially true compared to slow assaults like the Direwolf.

Sure, as soon the the assault survives the nascar and reaches the front he can deal lots of damage. But at this point a competent light pilot has already dealt several hundred points of damage so he can keep up the damage-race.

So sustained DPS is more complicated than just the number displayed in smurfy. In my opinion the faster a mech is, the more heat-efficient it should be to fully use every opportunity created by it's mobility.

Another factor which is not seen in the result screen is the confusion and panic a light can create. They can affect a match outcome just by being in the enemies backyard even without doing much damage.

Scouting however is not what a light in MWO should restrict itself to. A light that can't deal damage can not even distract a competent enemy. For example i happily ignore that iconic narc-raven when there are more dangerous targets to shoot at. Like the LRM boats that raven is supporting.

JediPanther, on 09 July 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

Spoiler

Because the speed they have wins matches in other game modes. A few heavies can do 120 but most mechs simply are too slow. Since the change of conquest where you need caps more than skirmish plus objectives I get more cry babies telling me stuff like don't die,go cap,save my *** because enemy light after me and other funny things. A mode where lights matter?

Incursion guess who gets "the job" of radar and jaming? Play with pugs who don't use those vs a team that does. Using them to your advantage is what it is for. Lights can also snipe at the bases and destroy them with the proper long range weapon and high or low attack angle avoiding triggering those 100% hit rate defenses.

Assault mode you can easily use your slow meat shields to slow the enemy and cap with a wolf pack or just send one light to decoy the enemy instead.

A good light mech scout can give early warning about meta mechs like dual h gass,ssrm,dual ac 20 and other such builds the team could focus fire removing those threats making it easier to finish off the rest of the enemy instead of taking heavy losses and damage or just losing out right.

I've got a locust set up for just scouting with only two er mls and xl 170. Maxed sensors mobility bap and a tc mk1 along with full uav and strikes in aux tree. It does nothing for direct damage or fighting other mechs but when I finally get that magical rare pug drop of experienced smart borg like hive minded pugs it can do great things in prioritizing enemy threads.

WrathOfDeadguy, on 09 July 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

Spoiler

Can we please put these "what are lights for?!" nonsense to bed already? I just don't understand this loud and vocal segment of the MWO playerbase who couldn't be bothered to actually research what they're talking about, and instead spout off about how lights are supposed to be for scouting, or cleaning up vehicles and infantry, shouldn't be able to fight larger 'Mechs, and on and on and bloody on.

The lore never says anything like that. At all. Ever.

For the most part, specific 'Mechs are designed around specific roles. That is true of every weight class. Faster 'Mechs do tend to be better suited for recon and harassment roles; that is also true. However, not every light 'Mech is built for those roles... and not every 'Mech designed for those roles specifically proved to be limited to or by them.

From the Piranha's description on Sarna: "These are a serious threat to any foe on such a speedy 'Mech, especially if a Star of Piranhas operate in a pack, and such a large array allows the 'Mech to chew through an opponent's rear armor almost instantly. They are most deadly, however, to unarmored infantry, capable of wiping out an entire company in seconds." Because the ability of the 'Mech to defeat armor quickly is specifically mentioned, it is abundantly clear this is not intended to just be some kind of ultimate anti-infantry platform. Yes, it does that very well because the sort of MGs carried on 'Mechs make infantry into chunky salsa... but the writer went out of their way to highlight the Piranha's effectiveness against armored opponents. Ergo, the Piranha is intended for the role it is used for in MWO: that of a 'Mech killer.

Moving on.

The Solitaire, which we don't have yet in MWO, is a nasty piece of work. It carries a stock loadout of 1xHLL, 2xHML, and 1xHSL, and runs at 162kph (which, in MWO terms means it'd max out at 174kph after speed tweak). Its description defines its role thusly: "The Solitaire relies on a full compliment of heavy energy weapons. Even though the ten double heat sinks cannot possibly dissipate the heat, the typical warrior will move into position and then perform a full strike with the single Model X Heavy Large Laser, the Model II Heavy Small Laser, and the two Model V Heavy Medium Lasers." How does that not sound like exactly what striker lights currently do in MWO? Get in, puke up an alpha or two, get out. It's meant to kill 'Mechs.

The Urbanmech. It just had to be mentioned. Do we really need more detail here?

The Adder- primary configuration 2xCERPPC, which with TT's brokenly OP Clantech was a pair of 15-point hits... or the same firepower as carried by an Inner Sphere Awesome, but with better damage focus because the firepower was concentrated into fewer weapons. Most of its alternate configurations revolve around other long-range sniper and support configs, but all are built around at least medium-bore ACs, large energy weapons, and large missile racks. One's even got a HAG-20. The Cougar is a direct descendant of the Adder, which is also typically built arount pairs of large energy or missile weapons, pairs of medium ballistics, or single large ballistics (notably Gauss and UAC10) with backup weapons. These are pretty obviously designed as 'Mech killers, as they're far too slow for scouting roles and (with the exception of one Jihad-era Cougar variant) tend to carry weapons which aren't as well suited for fighting non-'Mech opponents.

The Jenner and the Panther are two of the most iconic Inner Sphere lights. The Jenner was designed as a fast striker, while the Panther was meant for direct fire support, and the DCMS often paired them up so that their Jenners would be able to rely on the slower Panthers to engage enemies at long range while they closed in to finish the job with their short-ranged weapons. From the Jenner's description: "A favorite tactic of Jenner lances was to gang up on larger 'Mechs and unleash a devastating alpha strike .... A few seconds later the attack would be repeated until finally the enemy was dead." Once again- that's MWO light gameplay in a nutshell.

Speaking of Jenners, the Wolfhound was a joint venture by the Davions and Steiners (predating the FedCom by a few years) to finally put a stop to marauding Jenner lances. So... another example of a 'Mech built to fight 'Mechs.

Then we have the Hollander, also not yet in MWO, which was designed as a mobile sniper in response to the Clans' use of the Kit Fox's alternate config. A in the same role. I'm pretty sure neither one was intended to use their Gauss rifle for infantry suppression.

So, to answer the original question... lights are here to kill 'Mechs. Just like everything else in this game. Killing 'Mechs is the core gameplay loop. It is worth noting that the Jenner, of all the lights in Battletech, was the first light 'Mech in MWO back when it only had a single example of each weight class. That is no accident. They could have given the Spider or the Commando first nod but instead picked the Jenner, famed for its ability to hunt and kill larger, heavier 'Mechs. The current use of lights in this game, as strikers and assassins, was not just intended- it was the entire point of their inclusion on day one. Was that enough emphasis, or should I have done that in red? Their other roles (recon, harassment, light fire support, etc), such as they are and to the extent that they exist in gameplay, were added later, as an afterthought.

Nameless King, on 09 July 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

Dumb poll is dumb.

Thank you guys for expanded answers!

[Vellron2005]

Right now, there are some lights in the game that are OP and annoying.. And even some "light mediums"

I'm talking about Piranha, Flea, Assassin, and Urbanmech..

Piranha and Flea are punching above their weight, while Assassin and Urbanmech seem to have hitreg issues that make them soak up damage..

Urbanemech especially, which earned it the nickname - Mini Atlas.. Only yesterday I hit one nearly point blank with 2 x LBX10 + 6 x CERMED, and the thing didn't even change a shade.. It's absurd.. full alpha to the face.. nothing... and it killed my Blood Asp with machineguns..

How fair is that?

I'm not saying lights need to be removed.. many people love playing them... but some lights are really not cool.

[LordNothing]

to troll potato assaults.