119 replies to this topic

[Erik Krieger]

Anastasius Foht, on 15 July 2018 - 04:28 AM, said:

Why any player in this game think his way of arming their mech is only good and rest are "bad"? Wanna pwn CT with ur 2xheavy gauss and hate any 600+m weapons? Reality is anyone free to choose weapons MWO have, and blaming someone for use them usually called "salt".

Why then all this "balanciing"? If everything is fine as it is? This game changes and it's changing to the worse in this single point... that's all. And every player has the "right" to use whatever weapon they want. And I have the right to point to problems... we agree, I think on that.

Daggett, on 15 July 2018 - 04:31 AM, said:

So as a newb back then i preferred lasers because they were much more straighforward.

I'll give you that.

But in my case I prefered the LRM builds in the start. My first was a Mad Dog with 2 LRM 15 and Backup Lasers. And I even like to play it today.

Edited by NobleSavage, 15 July 2018 - 04:53 AM.

[Pain G0D]

Good or bad , who can deny the fun factor of tossing lurms . This is a game and the point of a game is to have fun . I said this before , if LRM,s did as much damage as brawling weapons , there would be no need for brawling .

Brawling , sniping and Long range missiles are all excellent options under the right conditions.

Edited by Pain G0D, 15 July 2018 - 05:08 AM.

[Anastasius Foht]

NobleSavage, on 15 July 2018 - 04:46 AM, said:

Why then all this "balanciing"? If everything is fine as it is? This game changes and it's changing to the worse in this single point... that's all. And every player has the "right" to use whatever weapon they want. And I have the right to point to problems... we agree, I think on that.

Its take 1-2 weeks to change meta after they introduce C-Lasers buff (GH reduce, 2 to 3 cERLL), they nerfed c-lrms already, and buffed AMS slightly, just wait for next patch. I have more problems with C-Gauss boating than with any LURM boats. All this lrm-s**t storm was triggered by streamers who played 12 mans group consisting of players from top 98% with dedicated NARC lights, to "prove" lrms is broken, lmao, but its Group Queue with top players in game broken, not some weapons they choose to troll. They have same success with SRM boating, Dakka boating(whole team in Dragons) 8 Piranha + 4 Linebackers teams etc.

[xe N on]

LRMs are a all or nothing weapons. They can be good on flat maps without any cover. But on the wrong map with the wrong opponent (ECM + AMS) they suck.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

This far in a thread with that title and not a single

R A N G E D D P S ?

I am disappointed.

Edited by IdToaster, 15 July 2018 - 05:24 AM.

[Kroete]

NobleSavage, on 15 July 2018 - 04:40 AM, said:

1. Yes, I do. But there are drawbacks to mount them and the majority of my mechs (280) ain't got the hardpoint for it.
2. "Better players" are the ones, who can beat another player without the need that the other one has "one arm handcuffed on his back."

1)
How many multiple cicada x5 do you have?
Every other mech can mount ams, but you choosed not to use it because more lazorz/heatsinks/hardpoints/whatever.
Dont promote there is no counter if you just choosed not to take it.
Its your fault, not the one of the devs, the weapon, the users or the game.

2)
Do you have an explanation that i can understand?
What i understand is, you are saying that the lrm-users are better players or you are playing with only one hand.
Do you play with only one hand? Or did i missunderstand you?

Edited by Kroete, 15 July 2018 - 05:24 AM.

[Asym]

OP, let's answer this maturely and based in some facts. OK?

And, before I get into this: your English is just fine. Thanks for the article.

LRMs are part of a combined arms environment. They exist form the beginnings of the MW universe. LRM's and most missile technology have a part to play in the team oriented battle space. Without "indirect fire weapons", all you have is a single plane battle space and that would never have existed in this made up fictional Universe MW operates on. LRM's are part of the cultural legacy of MW....

LRM's aren't bad at all and many of the forum pilots that reject them have been seen in game running SNV-A LRM/ATM boats and at the same time, bashing them in the forums.... War isn't easy; nor, should it be. War in a faster-than-light culture is a complicated affair. Think about this for a second....they can travel between world in space but only use "direct fire weapons?" Can you honestly say that makes any sense? It doesn't......and, LRM's have a function in not only lore but in this version of warfare....

Missiles deny the use of open space... What can be seen can be hit; and, what can be hit can be killed.... Cover and concealment are requirements of modern warfare since the bow and arrow.....
Now, about being a no skill weapon? Does ECM involve skill and is ECM effective? How about TC's, TAG, BAP, Sensor skill nodes and ARTEMIS? Remember, we are talking about FTL capable cultures with advanced technologies that have "force field screens on their FTL ships and inertia compensators that allow people to travel at FTL speeds?" Why don't we have force fields on our mechs??? Why aren't we using enhanced TC controlled, fool proof ballistic targeting?

LRM's are too powerful....really? Let's look at that logically. You have cover and concealment on every map I've ever played on to start. I rarely die from LRM's and I am a potato. You have skill nodes with radar dep. You have ECM. You have the no skill AMS systems that kills "no skill missiles" and you are rewarded in doing so..... The real question I have to those whom complain about missiles is "why are you not using all of the tools to avoid them?" Ah, the root cause of the angst is that many players don't want to think and assume arena FPS games are suppose to be "easy".......see the bad guys and shoot them into tiny pieces...ooooooh, that's fun,repeat again....I are GuD. MWO isn't that game...

The real purposes of any indirect fire weapon are: area denial, being able to get inside of the enemies plans well before they make contact (disrupting those plans) and, to break up enemy formations.... That is why Artillery is the King of Battle because nothing can stand in it's way when properly used.... Unfortunately, many MWO players have never served in the military's we have in this game....and, MW is based on a future where military forces fight for power. Why would there not be Artillery???

Again, a civil response to a question that has been asked many times. LRM's are here because they've always been here and in the real world as well..... If you want a pure gaming, made up silly FPS, play another game because MW was created for an entirely different purpose and has a much larger scope than the average arcade FPS..... I hope this explains what I believe.

Edited by Asym, 15 July 2018 - 05:28 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Any direct fire weapon does area denial better. A Deathstrike will kill or cripple you the moment you peak, before you've even got guns in position. It doesnt push you back or make you go to cover - it kills you.

There is one and only one thing LRMs do that numerous other weapons dont do better - let you shoot while you're hiding, requiring teammates to tank for you.

That's it. It's why they are bad. They have 0 redeaming qualities. They do nothing useful or productive that other weapons dont do better. Their only value is in shooting while hiding and making your teammates tank for you. They inflate your match score while reducing your win/loss because without question that approach, using a functionally inferior weapon while making your team soak damage for you, drives losses.

If a good player is playing with LRMs it's because he's out farming damage to inflate his match score or he doesnt want to have to really try. It's not that LRMs require 0 effort - it's that they require way less to do damage with than any direct fire weapon while, conversely, they are incapable of the quick precision required to secure kills and make match-winning moves.

They have a low skill ceiling and create bad behavior. It's why there are no real consistent winners and by that I mean people who win a lot who use LRMs specifically because of all that. LRMs lose matches. They also drive long range poke/trade behavior. They literally make the game less fun to play for everyone else. I get that if someone lacks the skill or ability to perform well that LRMs are "fun" because they at least create the illusion of doing well by farming damage while losing matches, to which people say "oh my team was just bad" while any other actual good player putting up the same damage numbers actually drives wins.

Good players hate LRM bluffs because they drive boring matches. It moves the game toward long range trade in QP/GQ which is dull. FW is little impacted because no actual good teams use LRMs and good teams will always destroy bad teams regardless.

This isn't about "hate". Trying to pretend there's some moral component is an observation based, tested, proven set of facts is disingenuous and dishonest. It's not that good players hate LRMs - they just dont like people playing badly, sandbagging their teams or game changes that make it dull and reward cowardly and/or shallow gameplay.

[HammerMaster]

Yeah ok.
Because ac spam kdk and beam spam/ecm crutch hellbringer isn't "boring"

[Xeno Phalcon]

Quote

The Real Purpose Of Lrms

<Narration by Dee Snider>

Invented in 2456 the Long Range Missile commonly seen today was used to mine salt from a safe distance away, eliminating the danger of cave-ins or the need to ask permission from neighboring countries. Their function remains true even today well over a millennia later, despite many attempts to improve on this industrious tool or produce other methods the "LRM" is still the uncontested king of salt.

[Dragonporn]

Yet another thread on lurms... As it has been said countless times: the only thing LRMs can be good against is very bad team. Literally this weapon system exists to punish abysmal teamplay. Even in solo QP every team has at least one (usually more) AMS/ECM carrier. If team is well grouped and positioned, counter measure carrier aware of himself and stick with the blob, LRMs getting almost entirely useless. If enemy team has big number of lurmers (somewhere around 5-6), it is very easy to steamroll their whole team, the only thing needed is scouts with eyes, target callouts and being overly aggressive. Just straight up rush them, your team will definitely have MUCH bigger firepower advantage, and enemies will fold. It works spectacularly well even maps like Polar, as I've been on both sides of it many times.

Because of teams are more often than not stretched and spread across the map, AMS/ECM'ers have no idea about positioning and teams usually play very passively, they get mercilessly and slowly murdered by LRMs, than folks come here with strawmen arguments about how OP LRMs are... Well, yeah, they are, if you give them all the advantages, while you aren't supposed to.

[HammerMaster]

Listen. The REAL purpose? Is to provide different way to cause damage to an enemy. Because BATTLETECH. Not to inflate E-peen and stroke egos. If you need to feel better about yourself by telling yourself that you are better by clicking your mouse with a different checkbox...well get help. Because CLEARLY the issue doesn't lie in a video game. It rests with you.

Edited by HammerMaster, 15 July 2018 - 07:02 AM.

[MischiefSC]

If you're getting defensive you may want to ask why.

Trying to equate "liking to win more than losing" with "epeen" isnt just false but insulting. KDK AC "spam" isnt even that strong. MC MKII is way more dangerous for that. Night Gyr UAC2/LBX2 build is way more "spam". Calling HBR with laservomit a "crutch" is also pretty disingenuous.

LRMs are bad. So are IS Small Lasers. IS LPLs are bad for the tonnage too. There is no moral component to that - just an observation that's easy to back up with math and statistics. LRMs will always be bad because indirect fire in a team based FPS will always be bad and lock on weapons in a FPS will always (by necessity) be pretty bad, and lock on IDF is always going to be two bad that taste bad together.

What's crazy is how upset people get over pointing out that fact, like somehow it is "mean" to make the observation because people want to preserve the illusion that LRMs are not bad and drive losses overall. Someone up above actually tried to correlate pointing out the realities of LRMs with actual racism. That's embarrassing.

[InspectorG]

HammerMaster, on 15 July 2018 - 06:33 AM, said:

Yeah ok.
Because ac spam kdk and beam spam/ecm crutch hellbringer isn't "boring"

Winning is boring?

[Novakaine]

The real purpose of LRM's.
Is to stop their brawlers advance so yours can advance.
I've been of opinion that lasers are the clutch weapon of bad players.
Who wouldn't know tactics from a banana.
On a side note the wealth garnered from salt mining is phenomenal.

Edited by Novakaine, 15 July 2018 - 07:29 AM.

[Dogstar]

Mongol General: Hao! Dai ye! We won again! This is good, but what is the real purpose of LRMs?
Mongol: LRMs are only for potatoes, no true warrior uses them.
Mongol General: Wrong! Conan! What is the real purpose of LRMs?
Conan: To crush your enemies. See them driven before you. And to hear the lamentations of their women.
Mongol General: That is good! That is good

Remember! Conan boats LRMs!

Edited by Dogstar, 15 July 2018 - 07:30 AM.

[Revis Volek]

HammerMaster, on 15 July 2018 - 03:59 AM, said:

Haha ok. You are missing the point by assigning blanket blame to "lurmers". It's that kind of marginalizing statement YOU made that I was comparing to. So when YOU and others say "people who use Long Range Misses are bad players" or ""lurmers" YOU are causing hate in MWO. My statement is sarcasm. So if you didn't understand that in translation. Understandable. I'm all about inclusion.

Your statement is Hyperbole, Not sarcasm.


Learn to English. Op does it better then you have displayed and he is clearly (as he stated) a non native speaker.

[Revis Volek]

Novakaine, on 15 July 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

The real purpose of LRM's.
Is to stop their brawlers advance so yours can advance.
I've been of opinion that lasers are the clutch weapon of bad players.
Who wouldn't know tactics from a banana.
On a side note the wealth garnered from salt mining is phenomenal.

Laser are a crutch weapon?


How is something that auto locks and auto targets considered a HIGHER SKILL weapon then something that doesnt? Just please explain that for me.

Im generally curious to hear your potato explanation on this one.

[Novakaine]

Because I'm the Boss.

[Toothless]

I occasionally take an LRM Cougar out when Im feeling antisocial and want to watch the world burn.

Other than that, I say let people use LRM's if they want. There are so many shenanigans in this arena shooter that its really hard to pick a favorite one to hate on.

Revis Volek, on 15 July 2018 - 07:46 AM, said:

Im generally curious to hear your potato explanation on this one.

Id actually agree with this Novakaine guy. Lasers are a "See target, point and click, hit scan". LRMs, to ACTUALLY be used WELL (again a HUGE emphasis on that part) requires positioning, awareness, and commitment to your attacks, as well as the knowledge of what to do when rushed and my favorite part, the Scarlet Letter it makes you carry.

With my laser boats I just shoot lasers and position to avoid being pushed when overheated.