119 replies to this topic

[Guile Votoms]

Long Range Missiles in MWO are an inherently flawed mechanic, because neither the maps nor game modes support this type of play.

Normally Mechwarrior/Battletech is a tactical combined arms warfare game in which LRMs have their place.
In MWO however, which is an arena shooter, the mechanics lack the needed complexity and the maps are too small to give the weapon a proper niché, which results in them being either completely useless or overpowered.

Useless because they promote a lazy and cowardly playstyle that hurts your team and prevents you from actually learning how to play the game and overpowered because if you're left alone, you can deal stupid amounts of damage with very little requirement for skill.

If the way lock-on works wasn't so simplistic and you would actively need to coordinate and work together to maintain locks, they could buff lurms even more, but right now the whole weapon system is just annoying and broken.

[Novakaine]

AntiLRMfacism by SocialJusticeLaserWarriors?
Is not a new thing, but now it has been coined.
Love it.

[El Bandito]

Guile Votoms, on 15 July 2018 - 12:06 PM, said:

If the way lock-on works wasn't so simplistic and you would actively need to coordinate and work together to maintain locks, they could buff lurms even more, but right now the whole weapon system is just annoying and broken.

What are you talking about? MWO LRMs do need team coordination to make it shine. Some rando in pug queue is never gonna make LRMs work consistently.

[Anastasius Foht]

Quote

Just +10% velocity is not insane. It was needed, if anything. LRMs are not godly, if the team lacks a good Narcer. Not to mention that even with Narcers running around only select maps truly favor LRMs. I blame the inadequacy of the pugs to counter LRMs to be the chief cause of recent LRM hate.

This was sarcasm post, LRMS is beaten by terrain/ECM/AMS/RadarDerp, only insane people(t4-5mostly) state LRMS are OP

[El Bandito]

Novakaine, on 15 July 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

AntiLRMfacism by SocialJusticeLaserWarriors?
Is not a new thing, but now it has been coined.
Love it.

Anti-lurmers are always out there. They never went away.

[Cosantoir]

Guile Votoms, on 15 July 2018 - 12:06 PM, said:

Useless because they promote a lazy and cowardly playstyle that hurts your team and prevents you from actually learning how to play the game and overpowered because if you're left alone, you can deal stupid amounts of damage with very little requirement for skill.

If the way lock-on works wasn't so simplistic and you would actively need to coordinate and work together to maintain locks, they could buff lurms even more, but right now the whole weapon system is just annoying and broken.

I do just as much "work" running an LRM build as a brawler - switching targets, securing line of sight, spotting for teammates. I doubt that "cowardice" is as much a motivation in a game as "attempting to minimize risk for perceived gain." While I can understand the assertion that LRMs as a system are annoying, the idea that they are broken (whether positively or negatively) seems inaccurate on both statistics and experience. Any weapon system can be played badly, and while LRMs may provide more benefit to less skilled play than other systems, their tradeoffs are ultimately less team benefit and fewer wins in isolation (solo QP). As others have pointed out, people have fun using them. Other people are annoyed. That dichotomy may be intrinsic to implementing the type of weapon system they are in an online game such as we have, but to exclude them would be to ignore a significant aspect of the IP.

Edited by Cosantoir, 15 July 2018 - 12:26 PM.

[Guile Votoms]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2018 - 12:13 PM, said:

What are you talking about? MWO LRMs do need team coordination to make it shine. Some rando in pug queue is never gonna make LRMs work consistently.

I played several matches in an LRM boat since the buff to see what changed.
I never communicated nor had any backup weapons or artemis but scored 1000-1500 dmg almost every game.
On hot maps it's generally less, but with the upcoming heat reduction even that won't be much of an issue.

That's another issue though. People think "Wow, I dealt 1500 dmg. LRMs are so good." but they fail to see that they will likely still loose the match more often that not because LRMs spread damage all over the place when you should really aim to destroy components quickly.

You can already clearly see the decline of overall skill in the playerbase by how little damage you need to deal to kill targets because they don't know how to spread or avoid damage.

You can destroy a potato Atlas with as little as 40 damage, but against someone who knows what they are doing it can take 800+ damage to take them down.

LRMs however give you no control over where and how you deal damage, but instead they keep people stunlocked with cockpit shake and blinding effects, especially if they got narced, and this is neither skillful nor fun for the recieving end.

The only way PGI thinks they can make them useful is by buffing the **** out of them, which only amplifies the existing problems.

Edited by Guile Votoms, 15 July 2018 - 12:36 PM.

[Guile Votoms]

Cosantoir, on 15 July 2018 - 12:24 PM, said:

I do just as much "work" running an LRM build as a brawler - switching targets, securing line of sight, spotting for teammates. I doubt that "cowardice" is as much a motivation in a game as "attempting to minimize risk for perceived gain." While I can understand the assertion that LRMs as a system are annoying, the idea that they are broken (whether positively or negatively) seems inaccurate on both statistics and experience. Any weapon system can be played badly, and while LRMs may provide more benefit to less skilled play than other systems, their tradeoffs are ultimately less team benefit and fewer wins in isolation (solo QP). As others have pointed out, people have fun using them. Other people are annoyed. That dichotomy may be intrinsic to implementing the type of weapon system they are in an online game such as we have, but to exclude them would be to ignore a significant aspect of the IP.

I never suggested to remove them from the game. I only said the way they are implemented is too simplistic and causes problems. If the way sensors worked was more complex (C3 computers, info warfare) and if we had larger maps and modes that actually support tactical play, then they would make a lot more sense.

[Kroete]

MischiefSC, on 15 July 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

Murican "fact" isnt fact.

Fact is based on numbers where numbers are relevant. A fact is simply what is proven to be true. It is objective, not subjective.

The only thing LRMs let you do that other weapons dont do better is shoot while hiding at a target you're team is potentially taking damage from. It's a weapon that works by not being as useful a contributor to your teams success.

Can you prove your opinion or stop call it a fact or at least say its a murican fact?
You just brough a nice explanation of "fact", maybe you should use it?

[OmniFail]

I really think you guys are over thinking the recent changes to LRMs.

First, about the ammo changes. This opens up more possibilities that you guys would like. Medium and Heavy mechs that could not previously boat enough ammo to support the large number of tube needed to over come AMS are now more of an option. This could possibly move some of the Assault LRM boaters into lower weight classes. Furthermore, those who currently use Assault LRM boats typically have more than enough ammo for a normal match. These players have the option of adding more heat sinks so they can use their close ranged weapons more or they can add slightly bigger engines, so they have an easier time sticking with the team as it moves.

Second, the new heat changes. As previously mentioned by another poster, these heat changes are minimalistic. This also opens up more options in the medium and heavy classes that could not be viable because of heat restraints. At best clan players will be able either use both their LRMs and mid-range weapons as an alpha strike at mid-range, as opposed to using just one or the other. Also, when at close after spamming LRM’s, the may be more likely to put up a bit more of a fight with their close-range weapons.

I personally did a bit of both in my MKII-4. I really wanted to drop my speed down to 66.6 KPH and throw it all into heat sinks so I could use my LRM’s to support my cMPLs in the mid-range and fire more in close range. But, the lights are really doing well right now, it’s best to do 70 KPH and stick with the group during the nascar.

These ammo and heat changes are really important for IS LRM players if they invest in converting the ammo to heat sinks. IS LRM boats have been plagued by heat problems for a long time. But take note, IS LRMs hit like hammers compared to clan LRM’s and are more resilient to AMS fire. This may be a point that may drive you guys crazy.

All in all, the proceeding two changes will make clan LRM boats more useful to the team in situations where LRMs are “situational” and make IS LRM boats more viable.

Finally, there is the spread nerf for clan LRMs. You guys should be peeing you pants and drooling with happiness about this. You guys thought you had a good argument about LRMs spreading damage before. Now it’s a really good argument. Damage will be so spread now it will really take forever to kill you. A third of it might miss lights altogether.

There are also few things that I found to be funny over the last year or two.

For instance, they nerf the heat on LRM5s so people couldn’t fire them forever. But after the EMC nerf and the proliferation of AMS LRM5s became extinct because you can’t possibly fire enough of them to even overcome light amounts of AMS without racking up insane amounts of ghost heat. Even now with the heat nerf effectively rolled backs LRM5s will remain extinct for the very same reason. This is made funnier in the fact that PGI cared enough about the ATM3s to make them more resilient to AMS.

The Artemis spread nerf. Why were you guys not all up in arms about this? You’re always going on and on about LRM players getting their own locks. But yet, when they nerfed the best incentive for this, so very, very few of you cared. The comment in the notes if I recall correctly was that the “Artemis spread buff was allowing LRMs to do to much damage to a component.” Think about it. In the land of alpha strikes the Artemis spread buff is putting to much damage on one component. Really?

Also no one ever thinks about all the indirect nerf like changes. New maps that make LRM’s even more situational. If not neuter them altogether. Large areas of the n00balite oasis and pretty much everywhere on Solaris City. Game modes that add features that are detrimental to LRM’s. Things like radar jamming and little ECM beacons everywhere.

During Paul’s now infamous balance pod cast he said two things that I found unsettling.

The first thing he said is that was when he was talking about power creep. Yet season after seasoning my weapon of choice has become weaker and weaker.

Second was the comment about LRMs being intentionally bad. LRM intentionally bad. Everyone else power creep.

This is what I got for my money. Development of maps and game modes that either LRMs are useless in or act as indirect nerfs. I also helped pay for a team to develop more nerfs for my intentionally bad weapon of choice.

Now they are trying to bring the intentionally bad clan LRM’s more into line with the intentionally bad IS LRMs.

Shortly after the pod cast I decide that I wouldn’t put any more money into the game because Paul’s approach to the LRM matter.

And Paul may scoff at this.

But, now looking at the whole picture with the laser and LRM changes, and Paul ideas in general.

I have had a change of heart. I will not start spending money on the game, even if God comes down and fixes LRMs.

But I will start to spend again if they fire Paul.

Even if LRMs never get fixed. I can still use lasers and ACs to have fun after all.

P.S.

You guys always talk about bad LRM players. Do you think that it possible to be a good LRM player? I mean is it possible that there is some guy out there running around with LRMs and some lasers. Playing really smart and aggressive. Moving with the group and focusing fire.
Pushing the upper 2% of players and things like that.

Discuss

Edited by OmniFail, 15 July 2018 - 01:09 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

OmniFail, on 15 July 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

I really think you guys are over thinking the recent changes to LRMs.

First, about the ammo changes. This opens up more possibilities that you guys would like. Medium and Heavy mechs that could not previously boat enough ammo to support the large number of tube needed to over come AMS are now more of an option. This could possibly move some of the Assault LRM boaters into lower weight classes. Furthermore, those who currently use Assault LRM boats typically have more than enough ammo for a normal match. These players have the option of adding more heat sinks so they can use their close ranged weapons more or they can add slightly bigger engines, so they have an easier time sticking with the team as it moves.







Second, the new heat changes. As previously mentioned by another poster, these heat changes are minimalistic. This also opens up more options in the medium and heavy classes that could not be viable because of heat restraints. At best clan players will be able either use both their LRMs and mid-range weapons as an alpha strike at mid-range, as opposed to using just one or the other. Also, when at close after spamming LRM’s, the may be more likely to put up a bit more of a fight with their close-range weapons.

Because what this game needs is people in mediums bringing lrms.
lmao

OmniFail, on 15 July 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

I personally did a bit of both in my MKII-4. I really wanted to drop my speed down to 66.6 KPH and throw it all into heat sinks so I could use my LRM’s to support my cMPLs in the mid-range and fire more in close range. But, the lights are really doing well right now, it’s best to do 70 KPH and stick with the group during the nascar.

lrms and mpls?

wow.

OmniFail, on 15 July 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

All in all, the proceeding two changes will make clan LRM boats more useful to the team in situations where LRMs are “situational” and make IS LRM boats more viable.

Yeah, more people bringing lrms. It's moronic.

OmniFail, on 15 July 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

The Artemis spread nerf. Why were you guys not all up in arms about this? You’re always going on and on about LRM players getting their own locks. But yet, when they nerfed the best incentive for this, so very, very few of you cared. The comment in the notes if I recall correctly was that the “Artemis spread buff was allowing LRMs to do to much damage to a component.” Think about it. In the land of alpha strikes the Artemis spread buff is putting to much damage on one component. Really?

********.

everyone with half a brain saw the impact that the artemis nerf would have on srms.

lo and behold... it made them trash.

OmniFail, on 15 July 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

You guys always talk about bad LRM players. Do you think that it possible to be a good LRM player? I mean is it possible that there is some guy out there running around with LRMs and some lasers. Playing really smart and aggressive. Moving with the group and focusing fire.
Pushing the upper 2% of players and things like that.

Discuss

Mediocre players can get 1200 damage using LRMS with their eyes closed. there is no skill involved.

[Kroete]

OmniFail, on 15 July 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

Second, the new heat changes. As previously mentioned by another poster, these heat changes are minimalistic.

6% or for a c-lrm15 0.08hps

OmniFail, on 15 July 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

Finally, there is the spread nerf for clan LRMs. You guys should be peeing you pants and drooling with happiness about this. You guys thought you had a good argument about LRMs spreading damage before. Now it’s a really good argument. Damage will be so spread now it will really take forever to kill you. A third of it might miss lights altogether.

6% more spread for a clrm15.
You can fire a little longer with the 6% less heat,
but you need to fire a little longer to kill because 6% more spread.

In the end its a nerf for the clan lrms, because you need longer time to kill with the same heat and more ammo used.

[Vonbach]

Lrms are fine. Lrms have many counters such as AMS, teamwork, cover or just brawling with them.
Poking and sniping are just as annoying if not more so.

[Asym]

I'm not sure what else there is to say? We have those who use LRM's for what they were designed to do and others, that just don't like them because they create an inconvenience because now, that brawler has to mount an AMS or lose a few skill nodes to the radar dep skill tree.....

There are no winners or losers in this discussion.....one can only hope that some day, missiles and FDC tech resolve themselves into some sort of logical framework and LRM's get deadlier BUT, at a higher cost to equip and use....

Of course, that will never happen and as the nerf's to "just about everything else" continue, I wonder what will really be left?

One can only hope for some stability in the near future.

[thievingmagpi]

Vonbach, on 15 July 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

Lrms are fine. Lrms have many counters such as AMS, teamwork, cover or just brawling with them.
Poking and sniping are just as annoying if not more so.

yeah aiming is hard.

[MischiefSC]

Being a good or bad player is reflected in your win/loss. Do you win matches, does how you play win matches. That's it. Sort Jarls List by win/loss and you'll see a reasonably accurate reflection of player skill. Mixing group/solo queue skews it a bit, especially on the upper end but largely it just magnifies it.

Good players do things that win matches. What weapons they use are less the issue. LRMs are a bad weapon. Small lasers are bad. IS LPLs are pretty bad. LRMs are considered worse because their only use is literally helping people play badly.

You can be a "good" LRM player in the same way you can be "good" in stock mechs. If you're driving wins, you're a good player. If you're using bad loadouts or mechs you'll be driving more wins in better loadouts and mechs.

Again. LRM changes won't hurt me in any real way. It will increase the total # of players playing long range poke and it will shift matches even more away from "who plays best" and more toward "who had the fewest bads".

All of which is less fun overall. It's not that these changes are some big shift, just that they are one of many in a string of poor choices that make the game overall less fun.

[Y E O N N E]

Toothless, on 15 July 2018 - 07:54 AM, said:

Id actually agree with this Novakaine guy. Lasers are a "See target, point and click, hit scan". LRMs, to ACTUALLY be used WELL (again a HUGE emphasis on that part) requires positioning, awareness, and commitment to your attacks, as well as the knowledge of what to do when rushed and my favorite part, the Scarlet Letter it makes you carry.

Literally none of that is specific to doing well with LRMs and is, in fact, also required to do well with every other weapon system in the game.

Quote

With my laser boats I just shoot lasers and position to avoid being pushed when overheated.

Position to avoid being pushed when over heated? You mean you have positioning, awareness, and commitment to your attacks as well as knowledge of what to do when rushed?

Game, set, and match.

El Bandito, on 15 July 2018 - 12:13 PM, said:

What are you talking about? MWO LRMs do need team coordination to make it shine. Some rando in pug queue is never gonna make LRMs work consistently.

Everybody in pug queue is "some rando", and that includes players like Writhenn and Reckless and such and they do make LRMs work consistently.

[Vonbach]

Lrms are just fine. Pokers and snipers have been shrieking for them to be nerfed for ages now their getting a little buff again.
Its a support weapon system and used well (yes there is such a thing) will help your team. Especially your brawlers.
There are plenty of counters out there for them. Such as taking ams or paying attention to where cover is.
Or not standing out in the open like a moron sniping.

[MischiefSC]

Except pokers and snipers are the counter to LRMs. Brawling and mid-range is the one that suffer to LRMs in QP.

[Kroete]

MischiefSC, on 15 July 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

I suppress brawlers with direct fire and do so by crippling or killing them in less time than it takes lRMs to even arrive to do sporadic and inconsistent damage.

MischiefSC, on 15 July 2018 - 01:49 PM, said:

Brawling and mid-range is the one that suffer to LRMs in QP.

Why can brawlers suffer from lrms if you kill them faster with direct fire then the lrms arrive?

Edited by Kroete, 15 July 2018 - 01:57 PM.