119 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Kroete, on 15 July 2018 - 01:57 PM, said:

Why can brawlers suffer from lrms if you kill them faster with direct fire then the lrms arrive?

Because brawlers have to remain in the open on the target and LRMs can come in from up to 900 meters while evading terrain that makes direct fire support impossible.

So much for requiring positioning!

[Kroete]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Because brawlers have to remain in the open on the target and LRMs can come in from up to 900 meters while evading terrain that makes direct fire support impossible.

So much for requiring positioning!

But he said, he kills brawlers with direct fire faster then the lrms arrive,
they cant suffer from lrms, if he kills them faster then the lrms arrive?

[Y E O N N E]

Kroete, on 15 July 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

But he said, he kills brawlers with direct fire faster then the lrms arrive,
they cant suffer from lrms, if he kills them faster then the lrms arrive?

Because he's playing as part of a coordinated unit smashing clubbing mostly seals in FP and because the coordinated units he does meet up don't typically give him a chance to test the theory on even terms because they, too, usually bring direct-fire.

[MischiefSC]

Kroete, on 15 July 2018 - 01:57 PM, said:

Why can brawlers suffer from lrms if you kill them faster with direct fire then the lrms arrive?

Poke does. More to the point the teammates who are getting the locks for their hiding teammates get smashed by focused fire since they're trading 12 v 11 (usually worse).

However brawling and mid range usually means closing first - also having your teammates with you. The more people who bring LRMs and poke the fewer people who can close, the less viable closing is.

If an LRM boat is getting his own locks he will always lose trades vs direct fire unless his opponent is a potato.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

Because he's playing as part of a coordinated unit smashing clubbing mostly seals in FP and because the coordinated units he does meet up don't typically give him a chance to test the theory on even terms because they, too, usually bring direct-fire.

Just talking QP. Haven't played FW in months. There are several units that liked LRMs in FW. In a 12man LRMs are 0 issue to brawling because you can count on your team to push with you. In QP though taking mid range or brawl the more of your team in range, the less viable pushing up is. So you wait for the poke to smash the LRMs and spotters, you screen lights and then when the roll starts you move up.

In QP more LRMs = more people taking range poke = brawling/mid range less viable.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 15 July 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

Just talking QP. Haven't played FW in months. There are several units that liked LRMs in FW. In a 12man LRMs are 0 issue to brawling because you can count on your team to push with you. In QP though taking mid range or brawl the more of your team in range, the less viable pushing up is. So you wait for the poke to smash the LRMs and spotters, you screen lights and then when the roll starts you move up.

In QP more LRMs = more people taking range poke = brawling/mid range less viable.

In QP, LRMs are ridiculously powerful in the brawl. You cannot and do not put down targets faster than missiles can get there with DF in a QP brawl. A well-played LRM boat is only 300-400 meters away and is putting a constant ~19 DPS onto targets that are visible to any friendly in said brawl and it can flip matches.

[Agent of Change]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2018 - 02:45 PM, said:

In QP, LRMs are ridiculously powerful in the brawl. You cannot and do not put down targets faster than missiles can get there with DF in a QP brawl. A well-played LRM boat is only 300-400 meters away and is putting a constant ~19 DPS onto targets that are visible to any friendly in said brawl and it can flip matches.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
And that is when lrms are being played right.

Honestly LRMs on the enemy team shoudl encourage pushing as quickly as possible not sit and poke, but that's a player issue. once you've closed on the LRMs and taken them out of the equation brawlers can have some fun, especially if they are supported by friendly LRMS.

Edited by Agent of Change, 15 July 2018 - 02:49 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2018 - 02:45 PM, said:

In QP, LRMs are ridiculously powerful in the brawl. You cannot and do not put down targets faster than missiles can get there with DF in a QP brawl. A well-played LRM boat is only 300-400 meters away and is putting a constant ~19 DPS onto targets that are visible to any friendly in said brawl and it can flip matches.

I can do 19 DPS with the ability to focus single components at 300-400m with direct fire. Absolutely mech for mech, ton for ton, direct fire does everything LRMs can do but better - except fire from cover. For which I get more precision and my weapons not being negated inside 180m. The comment on suppressing brawlers before LRMs arrive was talking about long range or poke/trade. It was in response to someone saying the purpose of LRMs was keeping brawlers from closing and area denial, i.e. controlling a lane.

However in QP I can't count on my teammates to move up with me unless we're already winning or they also take mid to brawl. So the more people who take LRMs and poke the less viable mid/brawl is, unless I want left up and alone.

You're also touching on why I said long range poke beats LRMs too.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 15 July 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

I can do 19 DPS with the ability to focus single components at 300-400m with direct fire. Absolutely mech for mech, ton for ton, direct fire does everything LRMs can do but better - except fire from cover. For which I get more precision and my weapons not being negated inside 180m. The comment on suppressing brawlers before LRMs arrive was talking about long range or poke/trade. It was in response to someone saying the purpose of LRMs was keeping brawlers from closing and area denial, i.e. controlling a lane.

However in QP I can't count on my teammates to move up with me unless we're already winning or they also take mid to brawl. So the more people who take LRMs and poke the less viable mid/brawl is, unless I want left up and alone.

You're also touching on why I said long range poke beats LRMs too.

You don't get it.

It's not the DPS it'self, it's the fact that you can deliver it from anywhere, constantly, and with better heat efficiency than you can.

You, as one, single brawler, can only engage one, single 'Mech at a time. You, as a brawler, do not always have the luxury of closing on the LRM boat. You, as a brawler, are going to get sighted by that well-played LRM support 'Mech as you try to do your thing and get rained on. Alternatively, you are going to highlight a bunch of targets in front of you and the LRM boat will make each of them trivial to take down because they'll be at half armor before you get to them. And if you have a light shadowing enemy brawlers as they try to close, they can start delivering damage on the enemy's brawlers before your brawling 'Mech can get LoS.

LRMs are very strong in a brawl. That's where the good players get most of their damage with LRMs when they do QP drops: brawl range.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 15 July 2018 - 03:09 PM.

[Cosantoir]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2018 - 02:45 PM, said:

A well-played LRM boat is only 300-400 meters away and is putting a constant ~19 DPS onto targets that are visible to any friendly in said brawl and it can flip matches.

Agreed, and this brings up two points. First, if the LRM boat is positioning with the team, dealing high line of sight damage, then the weapon system in that case is not subject to several of the complaints being presented such as hiding and long range poke. It is effectively equivalent to Streak system in the best use case.

Second point though is that unlike a Streak system, if that brawl becomes a matter of mostly even trades, and gets down to 2v2 or 1v1, the LRM system is at a disadvantage relative to other systems (that are not the poor IS PPC) because the remaining brawlers can close to point blank, presuming they are equal mobility with the LRM mech.

So while the system can definitely be used well, and has other advantages situationally, one of its best use cases still presents a considerable weakness (min range) that other systems would not have. That, in turn, may keep less experienced players from using it as a strong push with team, which in turn feeds the ill will that creates and sustains this thread.

As stated earlier, a certain dichotomy of opinion on LRMs may be inevitable given the combination of indirect fire and minimum range. Those design constraints might make it impossible to please everyone while including the weapon in the game, given human nature in an online arena shooter.

Edited by Cosantoir, 15 July 2018 - 03:16 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2018 - 03:09 PM, said:

You don't get it.

It's not the DPS it'self, it's the fact that you can deliver it from anywhere, constantly, and with better heat efficiency than you can.

You, as one, single brawler, can only engage one, single 'Mech at a time. You, as a brawler, do not always have the luxury of closing on the LRM boat. You, as a brawler, are going to get sighted by that well-played LRM support 'Mech as you try to do your thing and get rained on. Alternatively, you are going to highlight a bunch of targets in front of you and the LRM boat will make each of them trivial to take down because they'll be at half armor before you get to them. And if you have a light shadowing enemy brawlers as they try to close, they can start delivering damage on the enemy's brawlers before your brawling 'Mech can get LoS.

LRMs are very strong in a brawl. That's where the good players get most of their damage with LRMs when they do QP drops: brawl range.

If I'm a bad brawler in QP I guess? Why am I up alone getting sighted by the whole enemy team without cover?

If my team has 0 LRMs and your team has 2 good LRM players we are still going to win trades at range. When we've won enough we will close in and roll the LRM team in a murderball mob. LRMs do damage at brawl range so long as their teammates are helping keep the enemy outside of 180m. I do the vast majority of my damage in Dakka builds at 300-400m too - especially if my teammates are holding their attention. I'm not getting where this is special.

Even at 400m if the LRM boat is going to lose trades with a direct fire mech who has cover to move into. The LRM boat performance you're talking about depends entirely on the other team going out of position or pushing up early and you're own team protecting you from lights and keeping the enemy at your optimal range.

Yeah you can put up great damage in a well played LRM boat, especially if your team does well. Same is true of every setup and direct fire isnt dependent on its team to the same degree and can more easily secure kills and can't be knocked out by 1 guy closing.

[The6thMessenger]

I was pretty sure is that their purpose is to molest mechs from a far, very slowly. But i guess what you said has merit.

I'm not exactly that annoyed with LRMs being a crutch for high damage score, but rather despite of such it's barely of help in practical terms, especially when they are asking people to hold locks. And while LRM boats may have racked so much score, they wasted time.

I understand that it's fun to barrel down on your enemies, it's stompy robots so they should be able to take hits and still be standing, and dying quickly isn't conducive to that kind of fun. But it's frustrating to not win either, because of semi-dead-weight builds.

Sure, perhaps that you're right that this buff is for "bad players". But you know what, it's still poorly handled like many of the changes in our upcoming patch, and LRMs' implementation could have been done better while still being a crutch.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 15 July 2018 - 03:30 PM.

[MechWarrior254947]

Lurms are good against bad teams and bad against good ones. That's how it was and that's how it will be. Problem is PSR, you get a match in T1 and 2/3 of your team should be in T3 at best. That's what make LRM viable in higher tiers.
In no way I am a great pilot and I play this alt when I'm drunk af. Exclusively narcing LRM maddog for sh*ts and giggles while not even trying to carry.
Got to #45 on Jarl's list in season 16 when was Tier 4. Now in T3 and when I recognise names from T1, match usually ends not so good for me. With nonames (i.e. T2-5), >1000 dmg and 2/3 solo kills are a given.

Fix PSR and no one will be complaining about Lurms anymore.

[justcallme A S H]

Wicked Gaming, on 15 July 2018 - 09:29 AM, said:

you guys do know there's people with disability's that play this game and the only weapon system they can have a chance with is lrms?

Doesn't mean they needed repeated buffs.

El Bandito, on 15 July 2018 - 11:55 AM, said:

MWO LRMs are not fire-and-forget, as it requires the lock to be unbroken.

Ah... Not quite. If you maintain the lock for 1s or so after they are launched and lock is broken - They will still hit.

It seems to be as long as you hold the long for ~half the distance they need to travel, they will never miss. I have been LRM boating / EZ mode past few weeks for many lulz and much salts and I never have to hold the lock until missiles hit. I reguarly break it half way and lock another target. The original volley still hits the target it was shot at.

[MischiefSC]

There's some exceptional players who can do incredibly well with LRMs. They can probably do incredibly well with anything. Writhenn could probably put up 800 damage and 4 kills with an actual literal potato in QP. That's not a statement that potatoes are very effective if you use them right.

Any of the best players who go put up incredible numbers with LRMs in a well designed LRM boat would, almost certainly, still drive more total wins with an equally well designed direct fire mech. Probably less damage but more wins. Hence the statement that LRMs lose matches compared to direct fire.

Trying to argue balance based on the most fringe exceptions isn't logical or reasonable, especially talking about QP.

[Wil McCullough]

Russet, on 15 July 2018 - 03:56 PM, said:

Lurms are good against bad teams and bad against good ones. That's how it was and that's how it will be. Problem is PSR, you get a match in T1 and 2/3 of your team should be in T3 at best. That's what make LRM viable in higher tiers.
In no way I am a great pilot and I play this alt when I'm drunk af. Exclusively narcing LRM maddog for sh*ts and giggles while not even trying to carry.
Got to #45 on Jarl's list in season 16 when was Tier 4. Now in T3 and when I recognise names from T1, match usually ends not so good for me. With nonames (i.e. T2-5), >1000 dmg and 2/3 solo kills are a given.

Fix PSR and no one will be complaining about Lurms anymore.

There will be more complaining. Bads will use lurms against other bads and harvest huge amounts of salt.

[Appogee]

NobleSavage, on 15 July 2018 - 01:57 AM, said:

First of all, I am not a native speaker, so please forgive me my grammatical errors.

Very often it's been said, that LRMs are a terrible/ineffective weapon and that it's easy to counter them. I agree to that but only in the case of a 1 vs 1 situation or with little teams. LRMS are by no means easy to counter in a 12 vs 12 situation like in Quick Play. Why?

I just can't use always terrain, not because I am to dumb, but because there are 8 or 10 other enemies which I also have to fight against. In many situations you are temporary forced into positions where LRM can hit you badly and even destroy you without the chance to fight these mechs back. That's why they are so popular and getting popularer each day.

So, my provoking thesis or opinion is the following:

LRMs are a crutch weapon for bad players to be able to also get high damage scores and kills too. Not every match but often enough.
And that is why they are so annoying to better players. While the better players with aiming weapons are in an intense fight with each other (which inludes the necessity to move over the battlefield) they get often badly damaged by the beneficial LRMers in the third row.

A similar motivation I see in the coming LRM buff and in the intended mid range Laser nerfs and long range Laser buffs. Bad players benefit from sniping and LRM fighting styles. Even when i want to have a little more "relaxed" match for myself i use this two styles. They are not evil and some get really good at them, but nevertheless they give bad players the chance to play along.

So all this lately development is in truth a "Bad Player buff"... to make them happy and hold them to the game. But that's just my personal point of view and assumption.

Correct.

And unfortunately, in addition, buffing low-skill playstyles eliminates any need for low-skill players to get better. So higher-tier matches will be progressively get more 'ruined' by more and more low skill players spamming damage and gaining disproportionate rewards from remote locks.

It will drive higher skill players away.

As an example, during the last event I logged off early from was going to be a 5-hour play session. I had experienced three matches in a row where mostly LRM spammers had selected Polar Highlands and spent 20 minutes shooting missiles at targets they never even saw.

It was straight out boring, and a waste of my time. So I opted out.

Edited by Appogee, 15 July 2018 - 05:33 PM.

[Novakaine]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Because brawlers have to remain in the open on the target and LRMs can come in from up to 900 meters while evading terrain that makes direct fire support impossible.

So much for requiring positioning!

Soooooo let me get this straight.
I only have to hide behind a hard cover to protect myself from 80 point laser vomit?
Heaven to Betsy I've been doing this wrong.

[Deathlike]

LRMs are primarily effective when your opponents are not aggressive. Even peaking with lasers or PPCs are more aggressive than someone using LRMs.

The thing is, armor sharing is actually pretty important in the game. Having someone (or multiple someones) sit in the back and not taking damage upfront tends become less effective vs opponents that are directly damage you, even if it is a short ranged brawler.

The greatest weakness of an LRM user is always aggressive direct fire.

That doesn't begin to discuss how random LRM hits are. I mean, it's great for stat padding if you like damaging a target all over the place, but the guy is still alive. If a target died quickly but whatever means, that's usually more efficient than someone lobbing LRMs regardless of distance.


Just remember... double teaming is useful for all builds, but anytime you are dedicating a mech to NARC or TAG just for the purposes of spotting is one less guy dealing actual useful damage to a target (like trying to aim for a backstab, which is a more efficient kill).

It doesn't matter anyways... we're heading to a "highlight and click" scenario instead of point and click... cause it's too hard to do basic things these days, like torso twist and find cover.

I swear, people think it's ideal to be in the open and not in cover as if games were played solely in the open w/o any consideration that cover is your friend like in the real world (yes, let's stand out in the open because "reasons").

/sigh

[El Bandito]

justcallme A S H, on 15 July 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:

Ah... Not quite. If you maintain the lock for 1s or so after they are launched and lock is broken - They will still hit.

It seems to be as long as you hold the long for ~half the distance they need to travel, they will never miss. I have been LRM boating / EZ mode past few weeks for many lulz and much salts and I never have to hold the lock until missiles hit. I reguarly break it half way and lock another target. The original volley still hits the target it was shot at.

That's most likely cause your targets were dumb enough to go straight backwards in order to dodge the lurms, and the missiles hit their legs.

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

Everybody in pug queue is "some rando", and that includes players like Writhenn and Reckless and such and they do make LRMs work consistently.

Great players such as them are not "some rando" by my definition. I myself have already proven to everyone that I can make LRM only ARC-5W work successfully and consistently in QP, but I am also better than the average pug.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 July 2018 - 07:35 PM.