Jump to content

First Few Matches Extreme Points? What?


43 replies to this topic

#1 Surn

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary Rank 3
  • Mercenary Rank 3
  • 932 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationSan Diego

Posted 18 July 2018 - 12:21 AM

Would someone explain why the first few matches are worth so much in Solaris?

I am 5-0 in division 2 and it shot me to 2000 Elo?

Is this how the Solaris elite got such high scores in season 1 due to beta play?

what is happening?

Edited by Surn, 18 July 2018 - 06:42 AM.


#2 Rick T Dangerous

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 339 posts
  • LocationExactly above Earth's center

Posted 18 July 2018 - 01:10 AM

It's obviously a new ELO system. It's different from the one used in season 1. We can be sure that the guys at PGI put a lot of thought into it, i.e. they think it's better.

#3 Dartangan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 100 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 18 July 2018 - 04:06 AM

Would have been nice to know what the changes were going into tonight. I'm having a hard time understanding what positive thing it is going to accomplish. Unreal.

And to Surn, no, the folks who were propelled to the top last season with impossibly few matches under the points system we were subject to for the majority of the time, they were getting huge rewards for wins during a short window, which to my understanding was +30 per win regardless of the ssr difference of your opponent and yourself, until they changed the rewards for everyone, and went forward.

One possible reason for this, I recken, could be a cover-up of last season's mistake, so it would appear that debacle last season was on purpose (it wasn't).

But without communication, who knows.

Would be nice to know how the points system for a tournament works before we all start it. Because once it gets figured out, something tells me enterprising latecomers are going to have an avenue to rocket past most-everyone. Unless that's the type of tournament they're going for...

We'll see I guess...

-Dart

#4 SmokedJag

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 371 posts

Posted 18 July 2018 - 05:59 AM

View PostDartangan, on 18 July 2018 - 04:06 AM, said:

Would have been nice to know what the changes were going into tonight. I'm having a hard time understanding what positive thing it is going to accomplish. Unreal.


It's a way of doing ELO seeding. Rapidly boost people with serious win rates (i.e. high skill, lots of experience, cheesy machine, all of the above) to where they only gain material rank from fighting peers and, to the extent they get matched with newbies, can't farm them for rank.

Besides sloppiness (entirely possible) the reason you would not announce this is that, well, as you say it impacts how people would play. MWO supposedly punishes manipulating rank in competition so why encourage it?

Edited by SmokedJag, 18 July 2018 - 06:02 AM.


#5 Surn

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary Rank 3
  • Mercenary Rank 3
  • 932 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationSan Diego

Posted 18 July 2018 - 06:42 AM

It would be nice to know the rules

#6 Marius Evander

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,113 posts

Posted 18 July 2018 - 03:25 PM

View PostSmokedJag, on 18 July 2018 - 05:59 AM, said:


Besides sloppiness (entirely possible) the reason you would not announce this is that, well, as you say it impacts how people would play. MWO supposedly punishes manipulating rank in competition so why encourage it?



Except its unfair to those who play 1st day, not knowing its there, and then others who start a day or 2 later now have the knowledge

However a placement games system is better than none to help the lower people not get bashed as much and get better matches.

#7 Dartangan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 100 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 20 July 2018 - 12:07 AM

This system is absolutely broken. It does not encourage fair play, and having finished 10th overall last season, I'm having a hard time playing 6 of the 7 divisions I haven't set foot in now, knowing how punitive even 1 of the first 10 matches will be....

This encourages collusion, manipulating the system and is a HUGE step down from Season 1....

Typical PGI, was figuring we'd at the very least have the same, or marginally better for S2.... Shame on me for forgetting how they can break things with no mind to how a tournament / video game works....

I haven't seen the ridiculous #'s that the math as my Physicist friend and I have deducted are possible given the disparity between the formula employed in the first 10 matches versus the subsequent ALL.....

It does the opposite of promote fair play.... And, as someone who EARNED his way to the top last season fairly, I can't put any effort in this season knowing how vulnerable it is to abuse, and with his system for 90 days.... The numbers that are entirely possible of showing up at any given day this season..... Rank amateur job of tournament design. Whoever's job this was, this person should be reassigned or reprimanded.

And yes, in fairness, we should have known the Point System prior to start. Had this been communicated, much wiser people could have pre-emptively pointed out the flaws, which are substantial.

It's like in Forensic Accounting or Internal Auditing, this is the same rules, you can't prevent fraud, theft, collusion, or in this case cheating... You can only deter it, the first 10 matches, with the formula in place, this system does the polar opposite, they encourage abuse of the points system.

Someone who never played this game with 2 computers and trial accounts could take first place in any division at any given moment.

This is ridiculous. In the spirit of fair play, and not willing to do anything but my the best under the points system, knowing how I would have to compromise my morals, I probably won't be playing this season under these ridiculous, vulnerable, open to attack and exploit rules.

....Was looking forward to another 3 months of Solaris under a (possibly better), poor form guys, learn from the mistakes of games past, old global ladder systems dating back to Command and Conquer Red Alert in the late 90's..... Had to imagine you could come up with a way to make this system worse than games which were exploited decades ago. And if you can't understand the err in your ways, please hire someone who does. Heck, I'll math it out with you pro-bono if necessary. Not gunna say more, as I believe it is only a matter of time before shennanagins ensue. Or they'll fix it, ignore the mistake, and leave people seeded with insurmountable leads, like the #1 finisher in Division 7 last season.

Something tells me I'll be making some popcorn, watching to see what happens, and spending my money on another video game for the next 3 months... The people playing fairly now, and anyone who plays constantly all season will be penalized statistically for doing so.

Please fix this PGI,

-Dartangan out (Finished #10 on the Overall Leaderboard in Solaris 7 Season 1)

Edited by Dartangan, 20 July 2018 - 12:15 AM.


#8 Dartangan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 100 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 20 July 2018 - 12:19 AM

Just wait until BOT accounts with SSR's previously thought unattainable with all trial mechs just start popping up in the #1 spots in every division.

As a systems guy, it's unfathomable for me that someone could break something so badly without doing this on purpose.

Nope, I'm really astounded, and can't say that they aren't asking/inviting this behavior.

Hope there's something done soon, was really looking forward to Season 2...

-Dart

#9 Dartangan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 100 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 20 July 2018 - 12:26 AM

At least they can't take my top 10 finish in a fairer system away from Season 1.

I can't play a game so poorly designed/orchestrated without compromising my morals.

And being related to Lance Armstrong, that's saying a lot. (sorta, lol)

Hoping to see some communication / assumption of responsibility and corrective action. That being said, I'm gunna go browse the Steam store and see what my friends who PGI has burned out with similar behavior un-reparably over the last 6 years are up to.

Oh, and some of whom had interest in Solaris and would have spent money on Season 1, but they just so expertly picked the one day since what 2012 that a Battletech game was released to do, what I believe, was their best content drop ever...

...for real, great job with Season 1 guys, please fix the game we're paying you to provide us.

If things continue down this path, won't be spending money on MechWarrior 5 either... Sad, sad, sad.

I'm out,
-Dart

Edited by Dartangan, 20 July 2018 - 12:27 AM.


#10 Dartangan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 100 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 20 July 2018 - 12:31 AM

...okay, one more thing. While pontificating the existing formula/algorithm, as we can't 100% know, as there's no transparency/communication. There could be a mechanism, akin to Socialism, which at certain dates would re-distribute everyone at the top's SSR. This would actually be better, and I would be inclined to actually play LOL....

...so, again, congratulations on breaking the game we're paying you to provide us so badly that, Socialism would be a better alternative.

Crude attempt at humor....

-Dart

Edited by Dartangan, 20 July 2018 - 12:41 AM.


#11 justcallme A S H

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Ogre
  • The Ogre
  • 6,340 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, AU

Posted 20 July 2018 - 12:51 AM

Someone needs to take off the tin-foil hat Posted Image Posted Image

It's the same as a new account and the first 25 games establish your Tier / Rank in PSR for QP. Seems the first ~10 games do this for Solaris in each division as well. Bonus ELO for a win and also BONUS ELO for a loss (I had one loss that was -115).

So its working to 'seed' players properly IMO.

Try a bit less posting on the forums and more playing your first 10 games and be seeded with PSR accordingly. If you finished 10th overall you should have very little issue getting between 10-0 or 10-2 and then be into the top 15-20 on the leaderboards instantly, I was.

#12 Guile Votoms

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Gunsho-ni
  • Gunsho-ni
  • 229 posts

Posted 20 July 2018 - 01:09 AM

Who cares?
It'll be dead within a week again anyways.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

#13 Dartangan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 100 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 20 July 2018 - 05:30 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 20 July 2018 - 12:51 AM, said:

Someone needs to take off the tin-foil hat Posted Image Posted Image

It's the same as a new account and the first 25 games establish your Tier / Rank in PSR for QP. Seems the first ~10 games do this for Solaris in each division as well. Bonus ELO for a win and also BONUS ELO for a loss (I had one loss that was -115).

So its working to 'seed' players properly IMO.

Try a bit less posting on the forums and more playing your first 10 games and be seeded with PSR accordingly. If you finished 10th overall you should have very little issue getting between 10-0 or 10-2 and then be into the top 15-20 on the leaderboards instantly, I was.


I was #10 overall last season dude. Played the hell out of this mode, while we caught a few people cheating on video, they didn't do well on the scoreboard, the system was decent, easily improvable, but now...

It's broken. If you can't understand how, I'm not going to give you step by step instructions.

Less posting and more playing!?!?! Your whole season, if you game the system depends 100% on not just winning, but the "quality" of wins, in those FIRST TEN matches..... If you don't understand now, just go put your blinders on or smoke another bowl or something.

Not going to educate you further, maybe someone better at math will figure it out, maybe they won't.

Play some matches? You are actually the person I killed in my first match that night, I was on my way to bed, a bit tired and drunk, but I wanted to see what I'd heard, something about huge gains, I couldn't believe they'd make the same mistake two seasons in a row....

I actually thought you might beat me drunk/tired as I was, but nope....

I was 3-0 with 1970something elo, and I thought, this is just stupid, they're gunna reset it, they have to, this is two seasons in a row, same mistake....

...as I was under the impression that they made the same mistake as last season, and they were likely to fix it very soon, perhaps while I slept, I decided that even if I played drunk and lost a few I might as well farm up one of the divisions and see what happens. Of course I lost the next 2 in a row against Lurm God, lol, who said, "you must be tired, because I'm rusty, lol." I farmed on... Climbing back up, forget how many matches later it was, when I lost to a gauss/something build I'd never previously lost to in that div, well, granted, I banned the map I always ban.... But, I figured, oh well, I'll keep farming, eventually I'll sober up and the elo will skyrocket, this multiplier is REDICULOUS... Then when the 10th match happend, I figured PGI had just hot fixed the game. Forget what my score was at 10 matches 1870ish...

I went to bed thinking they had made the same mistake 2 seasons in a row, but no one farmed it up enough to get ahead as far as one guy did in Div 7 last season (and you can't blame him, no one knew the system was broken, it was brand new, the guy legit went 78-0, and why would he ever play again after the fix, he was so high, the only way he could lose all that unattainable ELO would be to play, because without losing, no one could possibly catch him).

Granted, last season, I was 1450something wins and like 300-400 losses.... I got bored last season, I think they are too long, I climbed as high as 7th overall and 3rd in some individual divisions. I don't like a system that encourages you to play to the top, then stop, because of the risk/reward.... But, I'd stop, because I know odds, stats, etc...

....then I'd come home drunk and tank all the way down to 25th overall. Bad idea, but whatever.... At least it gave me something to do, ,because now I can play Solaris and farm back up..... I yo-yo'd between top 10 and I don't think in my worst drunken loss fest I dipped below 25th overall for the last 90 days.... I had no problem grinding back up because, it was my bad decision making drunk ***'s fault I tanked my elo again....

Not gunna grind upward, and I'm guessing as I beat you drunk that you have no earthly idea what a grind it is to grind past 2100.... Not gunna teach you anymore either.... But I'll be damned if I play right and get to 2100, or whatever.... Then have to grind past 2300 to overtake the leader with 10-0 (sync dropping against a buddy wanting to lose like people last season did tanking their elo below #100 to get the GXP)... or even 25-0, (just sync drop against a buddy or himself on his laptop with a trial account15 more times to get the 25 match rule). Fair play is easily exploitable by cheaters, or exploiters, or whatever you want to call it. The Season 2 system is way worse than you realize...

Then after talking to another of the top guys from last season, we figured out further how much worse a mistake they made with this system, and scratched our heads on how anyone could think this would "work" like you seem to think it will, lol, without someone breaking the obvious flaw, which by now you'll either get or you won't. Really don't care, lol.

The smart, top player not to be named who was explaining it to me as he understood it to date, figured, even if we pointed it out, that the forums, as they are, no one would be smart enough in here to get how easily exploitable this Points System is at the moment. I figured someone would, you apparently don't, which is fine, the sooner it gets out to people who do get it and want to, for whatever reason, I don't, I want PGI to fix it, so I can play 2000 matches again, and not get TROLLED by someone willing to cheat. And they can do it without risking any money or account or anything, because they can do it anonymously, with brand new free accounts. There are other more insidious ways to game this system, but I'm done explaining how exploitable this is.

I'm not gunna play unless this gets fixed.

Not gunna put TIME into a SYSTEM like this that can be EXPLOITED because it is VULNERABLE. Just as...
I would not put MONEY into a BANK that can be ROBBED because THEY LEAVE THE DOOR UNLOKED.

But you go on drinking the cool-aid...


I played like 2000 matches last season. Not gunna just go in, play like this isn't broken, then watch someone willing to CHEAT, overtake EVERYONE who doesn't by cheating. And it's a sliding scale, there are times of day when better players are usually on that you'd want to avoid to maintain some modicum of integrity while playing the first 10 and not lose, but each loss that you could have controlled could equal 10+ hours of grinding.... I've grinded because I was drunk and wanted to play, not gunna grind because they broke the Points System.

And, what's worse, you don't need to even know how to play the game, you just need 2 computers and 2 free accounts, or 2 guys with free, brand new accounts.... Well, it's a little more complicated than that, but I guess, "if" no one in the community is smart enough, or anyone cares enough to do so, then the leaderboard won't get trolled by new accounts on fake email addresses named, "FIX THIS GAME MODE" or whatever.

Something tells me there are enough PGI haters out there, that plans are already in motion...

Don't say I didn't warn you when whatever your best score is after 3 months of fair play gets easily overtaken by people EXPLOITING this broken, broken system.

Edited by Dartangan, 20 July 2018 - 06:18 AM.


#14 UnofficialOperator

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,431 posts
  • LocationIn your head

Posted 20 July 2018 - 07:42 AM

Spoiler


TLDR: So basically use a spare PC to sync drop a dummy account and get a free win during the dead off peak hours? AKA its like the win trading in games like SC2 when you are at the extreme top or bottom of the ranking

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 20 July 2018 - 07:49 AM.


#15 Dartangan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 100 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 20 July 2018 - 08:09 AM

Exactly, and you could farm up as many fake accounts as you want, as high as you want, all without playing the game, and it is FAST and EASY and the opposite of fair play.... the boost is really, really, bad....

But, you can only reap the benefit once... So, anyone who played, not knowing this, is at a HUGE disadvantage against someone who games the system, a little, quite a bit, a lot.....

This ELO injected into the system is BS.... How many players who were only there for the event do you think there are who through luck of the matchmaker, got the right opponents, versus a guy who, while better than that guy, caught the #1 guy over and over, leaving him at a -500 disadvantage... Now this wouldn't be a big deal if he gets the chance to play the guy.... Another problem people don't get... After match 10, the max negative is 30..... maybe he beats him 3 times.... he's still gotta see that same guy another 13+ times, to get back to even because of RNG..... And that's a big IF the person who was just there sucking a little less than the next suckyest people there for the same thing.... And many will NEVER play and hang way at the top of the leaderboard, finish in the top 50, with overly inflated rankings, having played for one night.....

There is nothing good about this.... People get high ranks and STOP.... And you could add some mechanism to make them play so often or lose some, but that's easily exploitable too, due to how easy it is to drop against whoever you want when the counter is low and the room is empty....

That BS event encouraged play, now the leaderboard has no correlation to the skill of the players listed... Some folks who went 5 wins 5 losses due to the multiplier and random things, in those first unforgiving drops will wind up lower than anyone sunk with records akin to 4-92.... It's exploitable, punative, I just am not going to play something with such poor design...... Not gunna put my name next to the likes of that BS.... I shouldn't have to explain why someone who cheated is ranked higher than me due to a bad few matches in the first 10, with hundreds of matches played and that person who is ranked higher, for whatever reason, cheater, luck, something in-between.... Do your job PGI.... This isn't a fair representation, I want to play, but won't support this....

Edited by Dartangan, 20 July 2018 - 08:12 AM.


#16 Dartangan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 100 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 20 July 2018 - 08:19 AM

I suppose an unfair system will probably attract bad players, that toxicity from the pug queue, people who can propel to the top of the leaderboard, without beating the top guys.

Yeah, they didn't nerf skill, they just removed any relevance of the leaderboard. That is not a useful judge of anything.

A good run shouldn't get you an unprecedented score, which propels you above the best players in the game. Yeah, maybe they know exactly what they're doing.... They broke the scoreboard on purpose.... No one is this stupid.

#17 Dartangan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 100 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 20 July 2018 - 09:10 AM

Yeah, I just don't see the sense in playing this anymore..... Just ran into a guy who can probally beat me 1 out of 4..... He was 2-0 in Div 1..... I was 1875 or so...... he's 1750 but multiplier....

If he had won, he'd have got what, +350?
I won, so I got +18 and he got, I'm guessing -200

PGI needs to address this, or they're gunna lose what's left of their playerbase..... People thought Solaris was dead last season...

I see people in the top 10 overall board, people I like, well, it's early now.... but yeah, we'll get some common sense together and say how broken this is in a way a 4-year old can understand. This just won't fly PGI...

#18 justcallme A S H

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Ogre
  • The Ogre
  • 6,340 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, AU

Posted 20 July 2018 - 04:58 PM

View PostDartangan, on 20 July 2018 - 05:30 AM, said:

Spoiler



So the TL;DR is that basically, you don't undertand why. So lets remember for a second the top ELO last season was around 2700 ELO from memory. The top 100 were well over 2100 ELO as well.

A Top Tier Player going 10-0 / 8-2 in the first placement matches and making 2000-2100 ELO, means they are put there for a maybe a week. I mean I was top 4 overall and in 2 days I was top 16 in overall. The leaderboard is settling - naturally.

After you play your 'seeding' matches you then earn or lose the normal level of ELO that you normally would.

What this system is doing is moving the TOP TIER players away from the LOW TIER players as fast as possible. While not ideal, because people like yourself seem unable to understand this, it is actually doing a good job because they should not be playing each other an anything that speeds up separating these players is good for the game.

The crux of it is that Top Tier players are going 10-0 / 10-2, getting the top spots in the first few days where you, as a mid level pilot, needs to grind. Working as it should.

#19 justcallme A S H

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Ogre
  • The Ogre
  • 6,340 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, AU

Posted 20 July 2018 - 05:09 PM

View PostDartangan, on 20 July 2018 - 08:09 AM, said:

Exactly, and you could farm up as many fake accounts as you want, as high as you want, all without playing the game, and it is FAST and EASY and the opposite of fair play.... the boost is really, really, bad....


You could do that in Season 1. So how has that suddenly changed? Why do you suddenly care NOW? You were not posting any of this silly rubbish in the past 3 months. It's obvious you do not understand how the boost works.

View PostUnofficialOperator, on 20 July 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

Spoiler


TLDR: So basically use a spare PC to sync drop a dummy account and get a free win during the dead off peak hours? AKA its like the win trading in games like SC2 when you are at the extreme top or bottom of the ranking


Well you could do that anyway, if you really wanted to do it. Because when the Queue is dead you'll match no matter what. 2400 ELO vs 1400 ELO. You need a populated Queue for it to work.

Either way this ELO separation of players does not stop anyone from doing this at all. So this is all purely tinfoil hat or a simple lack of ability to understand.

Once you have played your 10 games. You stop getting bonus ELO in a win OR a loss. It does not matter if the opponent is still in thier bonus period, you do not get their "bonus" ELO if you are over 10 games. Simple as that.

View PostDartangan, on 20 July 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

Yeah, I just don't see the sense in playing this anymore..... Just ran into a guy who can probally beat me 1 out of 4..... He was 2-0 in Div 1..... I was 1875 or so...... he's 1750 but multiplier....

If he had won, he'd have got what, +350?
I won, so I got +18 and he got, I'm guessing -200

PGI needs to address this, or they're gunna lose what's left of their playerbase..... People thought Solaris was dead last season...


So you're just guessing. The win probably around +120 ELO. No idea where you get +350 ELO from, the clouds is my guess. The max I have received for a single win during the bonus period is +115 ELO.

For a loss I got -115 ELO the next game. So it balanced my position in the leaderboard.

PGI won't lose any players from this ELO system. Any they do lose, simply don't get it and that is their issue alone.

#20 Surn

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary Rank 3
  • Mercenary Rank 3
  • 932 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationSan Diego

Posted 21 July 2018 - 01:10 AM

Ash, white knighting...

the real issue here is that Elo is crap as a ranking system because MechWarrior is not chess! Players win because they have superior builds just as much as superior skills.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users