32 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

I read a post somewhere saying that in the event of Clan salvage mercs were given instead top billing on IS equivalent gear or some extra cash for it. Implying that state militaries had priority on it.

[HammerMaster]

Ya lore wise. It still depended on your contract but for the most part during initial 3050s you were giving that directly the House paying you. Of course if you were still in Field and could fit quickly, a working weapon to get you through the battle was used.

[FLG 01]

How common was ClanTech in IS ranks? Depends on the timeframe. By the end of the FCCW, most of the elite house units would have some amount of ClanTech, and actually not a small amount. Adam Steiner's 14th Donegal Guards had some 30%, all the Crucis Lancer regiments (those which survived, that is) had at least 10%, and there are thirteen DCMS units with more than 30% ClanTech in their ranks.

Of course, the more regular units had more like 0%-5%. It is not just a matter of salvage and priority. It is also a matter of logistics. Many units cannot maintain ClanTech properly because it is complicated and expensive. A run-of-the-mill merc unit would be happy to sell their ClanTech, even if they got their hands on it, because they would lose a lot of money running it (when in most cases, IS tech is perfectly fine).

Also, the Clans began exporting their stuff. Again, expensive, but not impossible. On a humerous note: the Mad Cat MkII was more common in IS units than the Uziel in 3067.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Depends on the year and the specifics of the contract. There is no universal rule.

Very early on in the invasion I would expect most captured clan tech went to the governments for reverse engineering. The further you get from the invasion the more everyone has access to it.

[MechaBattler]

So would your average merc units avoid fighting clans? Doubt they'd get paid enough to be cannon fodder.

[Zacharias McLeod]

MechaBattler, on 02 August 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

So would your average merc units avoid fighting clans? Doubt they'd get paid enough to be cannon fodder.

In the first time IS Units fighting clans lost nearly 100 % equipment. Or in other words they where destroyed.

Even in the later periodes most fights against the clans result in high casualties for the IS Units. So many Merc Units think it is not worth the money to fight against the clans.

[FLG 01]

MechaBattler, on 02 August 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

So would your average merc units avoid fighting clans? Doubt they'd get paid enough to be cannon fodder.

Being cannon fodder is pretty much the job of mercs. IS house militaries hesitate when it comes to the big players like Wolf Dragoons and treat them well. But an average merc unit has basically two options: security on some backwater world, occassionally repelling pirates who want to capture a shipment of rice, or be thrown into the meat grinder.

It must be stressed that the storied merc units we know and love are extremely special. The Kell Hounds and the Gray Death Legion are Lyran house units in all but name, as their commanders are noblemen (Kell is the Grand Duke of Arc Royal, Carlyle is the Baron of Glengarry) and their troops are their retainers (in addition to their merc status). Wolf Dragoons have their own WarShips and ClanTech Mech production facilities, the ELH and Northwind Highlanders go back to the SLDF, Big MAC has been incorporated as an elite house unit after all... etc.

The average merc unit of perhaps a mixed company is just too insignificant not to be cannon fodder. And if you are desperate enough, a contract on the Clan border might be your only chance. I mean, it is a chance: you don't work with some backwater militia, you get to work with the very best units of the IS. And if you survive, you will never have financial troubles...

...unless you are really stupid and try to maintain that ClanTech salvage....

Edited by FLG 01, 02 August 2018 - 11:31 AM.

[evilauthor]

The Black Thorns are a company sized unit that specialized in fighting Clanners and did amazingly well because they were basically a company of PC adventurers. Even so, they would suffer casualties every book they appeared in, which at one time included the protagonist commander's little sister (she survived, but was too injured to ever pilot a mech again).

The Black Thorns used their Clan salvage instead of selling it, but since they were exclusively an anti-Clan unit, they needed as much Clan tech as they could steal. Which included a dropship full of Clan mechs once.

[MechaBattler]

Assuming MWO is using the official c-bill cost. It seems like clan weapons are twice the cost of regular weapons. Though I would imagine the maintenance cost would be even higher due to the lack of familiarity with it. Assuming your techs could become familiar with it the cost would go down. But still be double that of IS equipment.

I remember one novel the leader of a merc unit had swapped the IS large pulse and medium pulse lasers on his stalker for the standard stuff. Simply because it was easier to maintain and acquire new parts for. If even the IS pulse version is considered too costly. Then Clan stuff must be a huge pain. Though funny enough some clan mechwarriors and elementals joined his unit with their mechs and gear. He didn't seem to mind that at all.

[FLG 01]

MechaBattler, on 16 August 2018 - 09:19 AM, said:

Though I would imagine the maintenance cost would be even higher due to the lack of familiarity with it. Assuming your techs could become familiar with it the cost would go down.

That's correct. Actually, it is the prime reason why ClanTech was relatively rare before the FCCW-era. There is an illustrative quote from the Field Manual: Mercenaries, set in the late 3050ies, regarding the Blue Star Irregulars:
"[Their] technicians are competent in the maintenance and repair of Clan systems, having been schooled in recent years on Outreach, but must still rely on others (Dragoons, Kell Hounds and so on) to actually repair any damaged Clantech equipment." (p.41)
Keep in mind the BSI are one of the finest merc commands out there; in terms of equipment quality only the Dragoons and Hounds overshadow them. They are rated A* and even get their own WarShip! And yet, they have trouble repairing the stuff. The FM: Merc (revised) details the situation just after the FCCW, and the Irregulars still contract the Dragoons or the Wolves-in-Exile for "major overhauls".

The average merc unit would be nowhere near that. In fact, I assume most units - merc and house - would field salvaged ClanTech as long as it worked and then replaced it with IS stuff or simply discard the ClanTech. Given that some units regularly faced off against Clan raiders, this is not even unrealistic.
In the 3060ies, better merc units, and those with good relations to one of the IS Clans, would be able to contract competent technicians without problem - as long as they had the cash.

The Black Thornes e.g. indeed captured a large amount of ClanTech on Borghese but found themselves unable to maintain it without an extremely high-value contract. That's why they accepted raiding the Nova Cat world of Courchevel, which was very risky and almost destroyed the unit.

Edited by FLG 01, 16 August 2018 - 11:23 AM.

[Koniving]

If it tells you anything, I did some fun tests in MW5 discussions back when MW5 was set between the years 3015 - 3049.
The discussion was about ferro and why you couldn't just change to ferro armor (because it was listed as granular customization with weapon and equipment variants but no outright swap your AC/20 for 3 LPL or armor/structure changes).

The guy whom complained saw someone say no customization and went on a big tangent, thus the initial part... But it then goes into testing it in Battleetech TT / Megamek HQ with full rules (plus a bit of help from a few books on what Megamek hasn't got implemented yet)... and I tried to make a Jenner JR7-K out of a JR7-D in 3045 (4 years before one is actually made). The changes being made is to add ferro armor with C.A.S.E. No other changes are being made.

Koniving, on 18 September 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

(Final edit for the attempts to do this in Battletech/Megamek with the last bit of info added.)

You don't look **** up, do you?
It starts in 3015.
Goes to 3049.
Ferro-fibrous upgrades do not become commonplace (by mercs to regular mechs) until well after 3050. Even then you had to rent the facilities to do so (unless you were wealthy enough to own or have conquered them or secured them through some deal). It's still literally redesigning and replacing the armor, which is why factories did it before shipping them out. You, yourself, rarely did it unless you were a great house military force with a big facility to do so, and you likely did it en masse.

You will be playing a tiny mercenary unit consisting of one mech, and you will grow. But you will never grow to be as big as a Great House, and even the Great Houses aren't doing it very often until after the game ends.

So why would you be able to do it, when the Lyrans with all their riches aren't even doing it yet?

----

This said. What you do in "Creating your mech" aka "Make your gundam rules" for a casual skirmish of BT is NOT the same as "Customization" rules in a campaign. There's a drastic difference between the two.
In a full on campaign, just changing out a weapon could take several days.
Swap that heatsink to make room for another ammo bin? Welp, there went five days.
Change the armor type?

Upwards of over a month to three with a mercenary-sized dedicated facility, several technicians working OVERTIME (including two GOD MODE techs because otherwise the colossal failures with ELITE technicians are so dramatic that you have to throw away the mech into a junk pile!, a crapload of ASTechs (assistant technicians), and somewhere of twice the money it takes to just buy a mech variant that has ferro armor is gonna be spent on allowing for all this to happen.

I tried this three times and it required some GM god-moding to get the conditions to do so. To ensure everything was done by the book this was done in Megamek HQ (wanted to do it in MekWars as that is BT's online community warfare, but it would probably take me over a year to build up a unit far enough to even attempt this). Overtime was permitted and each technician (a total of four) was given 60 hours to work with the mech for each week. Each tech had a full compliment of AsTechs of average skill. The mech was moved to the proper facility to ensure that the conditions were perfect to make the change. Use of a Power Man cargo mech was authorized to assist in the repairs, with an elite pilot and modified to have an Easy to pilot quirk to prevent any issues from his participation (which there were no issues from him in all of these attempts). The budget allotted was 13 million cbills (more than 4 times the cost of a ferro-equipped Jenner from the factory) and after each attempt, the saved game was reloaded to recreate the same conditions. The result?

• Result 1: The mech was rendered useless due to a mistake that both broke some section of the center torso structure which caused the engine damage and when I attempted to correct that, the engine got fused permanently. In the end, the mech needed to be discarded as it could no longer function without being able to replace the engine, and since that was impossible, I tried to sell it. Because of the issues, it was also given the Bad Reputation design quirk which should just cut its value in half, but I couldn't even sell it as we could not find a buyer. The roll to meet for finding a buyer even with the god-modded technician was "impossible." It was discarded out back into a trash heap. So many millions down the drain. 9,573,872 million out of 13 million was spent on the process and that all went to the toilet to flush.
  
• Result 2: Marginal success! I was able to convert the Jenner JR7-D into a ferro-armor totting mech. Unfortunately, in doing so I wound up getting the design quirk Exposed Weapon Linkage on one of my lasers. Another laser ended up with Non-Functional. The other two were fine. The SRM launcher now had "Ammo feed problems" which could lead to jamming. It also somehow lost its cooling jacket, adding an additional 2 heat every time I fired the SRM. It took another 3 weeks to attempt to fix these issues, during which one of the god modded technicians quit...and took the mech with him. (The reasoning from the die roll was he felt he wasn't getting paid enough. I had about 4 million left at the time but no option was given for me to give him a raise. As such, I had somewhere around 9 million spent.)
  
• Result 3: Encouraged by the previous marginal success, I dedicated triple the amount of money this time, a total of 39,000,000 cbills just for this project to turn one JR7-D into a Ferro-armor Jenner. The extra money was dedicated to making sure the God Modded techs were paid a lot more so that I wouldn't have a repeat of the previous issue. I was met with a colossal flop. This time during the process, despite being god modded for incredible success... one of the technicians (Scotty from Star Trek) accidentally fused a leg actuator so it one, could not move, and two, could not be replaced. It was otherwise largely successful. But what good is a mech that can't walk?

Needless to say, even with the facilities, God modded technicians, etc... that "common" upgrade in 3051 (it isn't common at all actually)...ain't gonna happen realistically. So try picturing it in 3015, or 3049, without the facilities, with at best maybe an elite technician, and struggling to pay your bills instead of magically getting 39,000,000 cbills "from your uncle" just to complete a project to change a JR7-D into a JR7-K, a Ferro-fibrous mech worth only 3,306,375 cbills brand new.


It's just a waste of time in lore and customization rules.

(I repeated this experiment as House Kurita in 3045, and did it in the Jenner facility owned by Luthien Armor Works on the planet of Abiy Adi.

Here, they don't actually have the Jenner JR7-Ks until 3049, and I'm at it in 3045. I was able to produce one by modifying and redesigning the Jenner JR7-D. It cost me about 5 million cbills to make the changes and didn't require as high level technicians or nearly as much time (just 3 weeks). I was able to do it on the first try with only a minor issue (the design quirk "unbalanced/off balance"). Unfortunately maintaining was difficult. Within a week it went from Great/prestine (E) to average (C) after the first maintenance. Without even using it, in two months with regular maintenance it went to below average (D) and gained another negative quirk, Poor Performance. (Meaning from a stop, it would take two turns to be permitted to use a running speed, or over 10 seconds. And I didn't even put it into a battle yet!)

[Pariah Devalis]

Things to keep in mind was that at the initial onset of the Clan invasion, there were two limiting factors that stopped the IS from using Clan tech in any quantity: mech software incompatibilities and how few times the IS actually won. Development of better IS technology came from both studying the few bits of salvaged Clan tech, as well as the Helm memory core, which, in combination with the development of the software packages required to let an IS mech communicate with Clan techologies (usually "field refit" packages), this allowed greater odds of success for the IS forces. Thus, more Clan salvage and the actual ability to use it on their mechs.

From what I understand, it was always rather rare for an IS mech to be fully refitted with Clan tech, and usually it was limited to a small handful of Clan weapon systems. Engines, heatsinks, and other equipment was usually not Clan spec, probably owing to how easy it is to unplug Clan weapon systems from omnimech omniports, and how difficult it would be to strip out the reactor of an IS mech for a Clan version.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 25 September 2018 - 09:34 AM.

[MechaBattler]

But how complicated could the software be for autocannons? They're still mechanical weapons. I could imagine perhaps a laser might require specific software to match the hardware. More so with PPCs and perhaps Gauss. But I would think ACs would still function similarly enough that you could integrate them easily enough.

Edited by MechaBattler, 25 September 2018 - 01:29 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

MechaBattler, on 25 September 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

But how complicated could the software be for autocannons? They're still mechanical weapons. I could imagine perhaps a laser might require specific software to match the hardware. More so with PPCs and perhaps Gauss. But I would think ACs would still function similarly enough that you could integrate them easily enough.

Probably related to the ammo loader, fire control, and guidance? Especially if it isn't using the same sort of ammo comparable IS cannons are using, and I doubt there is a simple mechanical trigger. Given omnipod weapons are self contained units, they contain their own host of software relegating everything including guidance, firing rate, the electronic signal to even fire at all, and ammo loading. I almost wonder if, in universe, techs would husk off the omniports and additional electronics used to package deal the weapons for clan mechs, and try to hotwire the raw weapon itself.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 25 September 2018 - 07:19 PM.

[MechaBattler]

I wonder if Clan software in general would be much different. It'd probably be based on SLDF software. I don't see a reason for them to come up with a different OS or even programming language. If nothing else it might be easier for IS programmers to erase Clan software and test the equipment using IS software.

[Horseman]

MechaBattler, on 26 September 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

I don't see a reason for them to come up with a different OS or even programming language.

250 years of software development. Even if a different OS did not materialize, chances are the API used by weapon drivers changed in ways that may no longer be backwards compatible . DirectX changed in ways that did that several times before, and it's only been around for a tenth of the time in question.

Quote

If nothing else it might be easier for IS programmers to erase Clan software and test the equipment using IS software.

Provided that software is compatible with the hardware. Tried running Windows XP on a modern system?

Edited by Horseman, 27 September 2018 - 12:12 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Why should mercs mount Clan Tech at all?
Sure when you take only the game stats those guns are lighter for more power.... but when you take MWO just for a millisecond you need more "Skillz" to get the "more" damage and driving a Mech is not as simple as moving a mouse (there is a reason why you need an academic grade to drive a mech (lets ignore the BS of the Arcade Rangers don't we)

A Clan Weapon minus a Clan Warrior should not be much more dangerous when compared to a IS Weapon plus an IS Warrior. Ok you still have the "less weight and less volume" but seriously it might not be a good trade off.
Clan ACs might need a barrel swap after say 150 rounds where a IS AC can still work after 500 rounds - Clan Tech don't need maintenance easy and robust equipment because of their way to wage war.

[Koniving]

MechaBattler, on 25 September 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

But how complicated could the software be for autocannons? They're still mechanical weapons. I could imagine perhaps a laser might require specific software to match the hardware. More so with PPCs and perhaps Gauss. But I would think ACs would still function similarly enough that you could integrate them easily enough.

Generally through Megamek, Clan UACs are not easy to maintain due to lack of sufficient materials. Its not so much the technology of the weapons themselves, but of the materials they are made. Clan weapons are lighter, Clan equipment is lighter. This is because they frequently use more expensive, harder to obtain materials such as Ferro in the equipment itself.

Ferro is literally everywhere in Clan space because they build and maintain factories for it. They have steady efforts and don't have to do things the IS does, like build a fake factory on the surface while maintaining the real thing 3 kilometers below the surface after it's been destroyed 3 times in 150 years.

Clans don't destroy the facilities they fight over, they just come back to pitch another Batchall (Battle Challenge) with the place as the prize to be won.

I'm sure you've noticed, but it is extremely rare for a Clan mech to not have Ferro armor. This is because why wouldn't they have it? Its so abundant. And IS ferro doesn't compare, its far bulkier... So even if the IS had access to IS Ferro, repairing and replacing parts on Clan autocannons is difficult because IS material is bulkier than sleeker Clan material.

Then there's ammunition. IS ammo ranges from 30mm to 185mm with the norm being 80 to 100mm and non-AC/20 high end being 120mm. Clan ammo ranges from 20mm to 203mm. The non-20 norm goes from 60 to 120mm with the high end not known to me.

And this is the girth of the round, there's no mention of the length, but one could imagine a trick like the Japanese used, our bullets could fit into Japanese guns but Japanese bullets could not fit into ours, so even if we stole Japanese ammunition after we run low, we couldn't replenish. But if the Japanese got our ammo, well they could use it. I don't know of any mention of each using the other's ammo in their own weapons in Battletech.

Edited by Koniving, 27 September 2018 - 09:45 AM.

[Koniving]

There''s also this issue.


Until a boom that came about just before the Clan invasion, thanks in part to the Dragoons and Gray Death and in spite of Comstar... the IS barely knew much more than how to fix the machines being produced in factories that they barely knew the finer workings of. Comstar went about assassinating anyone with any 'god-tier' knowledge (the god-mode technicians I used and still failed horribly with never would have existed as Comstar would go out of their way to kill them [ quote from back cover, also there's references on Sarna about the actual operation/order name, but basically anyone that got close to designing a new mech dropped dead. Some managed to survive multiple attempts, the creator of the Hatchetman and Axman is one such person.).

[MechaBattler]

That makes so much sense! It really explains why the clan equipment is lighter. And why it's harder to maintain. The IS can't even get Clan ferro without salvaging it. And since IS ferro is hard enough to get. I can see now why mercs wouldn't have Clan salvage or mechs. Just too impractical without a source for Clan ferro to repair components.

Makes me wonder though if the IS couldn't use IS ferro to lighten their own weapons, while making them bulkier and more expensive.