MechaBattler, on 27 September 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:
That makes so much sense! It really explains why the clan equipment is lighter. And why it's harder to maintain. The IS can't even get Clan ferro without salvaging it. And since IS ferro is hard enough to get. I can see now why mercs wouldn't have Clan salvage or mechs. Just too impractical without a source for Clan ferro to repair components.
Makes me wonder though if the IS couldn't use IS ferro to lighten their own weapons, while making them bulkier and more expensive.
Ferro only started back up in 3040 that's 10 years before the Clan invasion. And there was one plant to start. A single supplier of new Ferro. The tech quickly spread as others were given the "how to" and in 3050 there were I believe (may be remembering wrong) about 30 locations in the universe to get Ferro armor. Of them, 6 were on Terra and run by Comstar and they ain't sharing anything. A big chunk of the others were done by the Mariks whom were happy to sell the material at top dollar (though from what I understand they were doing this well before too, as "scrap metal" of old megs. These facilities more than tripled by 3060.
There are more than 1,000 inhabited planets and about five times that for planets with some kind of purpose.
In 3056...there were 8 facilities making endo steel. 2 were quickly captured during the initial invasion. As you can imagine end was pretty hard to come by too. The same was true for the Clans. They have six in the thirty fifty era and shipments took "months". In traveling from Strana Mechty to the start of Clan invasion territory took close to 6 months.
A novel I recently started reading has Kurita hiring the Kell Hounds to attack and destroy a supply station that stores advanced materials necessary for Clan repair. Tomorrow I will get the name of it and the location of the supply base for you guys. Anyway. Without the base the novel says it would double the time it takes for resupplies but doesn't give specifics.
In light of this.... I think its easy to see why Timber Wolves weren't used all the time and why after only a few years we started to see standard battlemechs and second line machines that rarely ever before saw use... The Clan supply line was stretched too thin too quickly and IS materials are poor substitutes.
I believe the IS does eventually use Ferro in their weapons. The LBX was actually a system that used it (also why its so rare and losttech and non 10s are so bad).
If I am not mistaken I believe Light Gauss was one such attempt.
Novel is titled Impetus of War.
The target was the planet Boltin.
I haven't got that far into the novel but it sounds like things aren't going to go as planned.
Oh and the mercs are the Northwind Highlanders, not the Kell Hounds.
In order to hire...and apologize for past transgressions between them, a daughter to Theodore Kurita personally came to perform a ceremony in the hall of elders. In it, each side provided something stolen from the others. Kurita provided a blood stained flag stolen as a prize in defeating the Northwind Highlanders. I don't recall what the Northwinds provided. (Could be the Highlanders presented the flag to Kurita). Either way with amends and honor nonsense out of the way, the mission was given. The Draconian Combine would provide them with an Overlord Dropship, crewed and run by the Dracs with a Draconian support staff. From flipping through the pages it sounds as if there are more dropships also making additional approaches but I haven't got far enough for the additional details. Not sure if this is the Dracs sending in their own, the conflict between Smoke Jags and Nova Cats brewing up again, or what the case may be.
The payment details aren't disclosed, but typical contracts would make MWO players super rich per battle compared to what merc companies tend to actually get for multiple-month long garrison contracts.
The perspective of an X/O that isn't in charge leaves our main guy out of the discussions that would be really interesting. When he asked his commander about Clan salvage upon learning of the nature of the contract, however, "That's the reason we're using their dropship." (Implying the Dracs get all the salvage.) Colonel Sterling however gave him a logistical document which isn't described to us, but it was "Just in case."
So it sounds like the Highlanders may be using an additional dropship of their own, potentially to rescue their guys if they are betrayed and abandoned. That's quite an extra expense. But this could also be to steal some salvage, too. That's if the logistical plan has to do with a dropship and not something else.
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 05 October 2018 - 08:52 AM
MechaBattler, on 27 September 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:
That makes so much sense! It really explains why the clan equipment is lighter. And why it's harder to maintain. The IS can't even get Clan ferro without salvaging it. And since IS ferro is hard enough to get. I can see now why mercs wouldn't have Clan salvage or mechs. Just too impractical without a source for Clan ferro to repair components.
Makes me wonder though if the IS couldn't use IS ferro to lighten their own weapons, while making them bulkier and more expensive.
LB-10X, it uses ferro to lighten it and make it smaller, but it is the one rare case were such a thing actually happened. Usually what happened in the case of the LB series, using FF bulked it out some what...
For UAC/s, as far as I understand, they added a stronger motor to be able to drive more rounds into the chamber at a higher speed, while at the same time increasing the RoF... hence being less prone to jamming than standard AC/s when pushed into rapid fire mode.
LB-10X, it uses ferro to lighten it and make it smaller, but it is the one rare case were such a thing actually happened. Usually what happened in the case of the LB series, using FF bulked it out some what...
For UAC/s, as far as I understand, they added a stronger motor to be able to drive more rounds into the chamber at a higher speed, while at the same time increasing the RoF... hence being less prone to jamming than standard AC/s when pushed into rapid fire mode.
That kinda doesn't make sense though. Presumably using IS Ferro would have made the LBX10 more bulky. So they must have made it out of something more advanced. Perhaps it was the precursor to Clan Ferro.
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 05 October 2018 - 12:00 PM
MechaBattler, on 05 October 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:
That kinda doesn't make sense though. Presumably using IS Ferro would have made the LBX10 more bulky. So they must have made it out of something more advanced. Perhaps it was the precursor to Clan Ferro.
Real reason:
When FASA put it in, due to the ability to ammo swap between cluster and solid shot, everyone and their dog dumped AC/10's for LB-10X's, as it was smaller (by 1 crit and 1T) and ran cooler... it honestly had the stats that the AC/10 should've had in the first place. To avoid something similar with the LB-2/5/20 they (FASA) made the IS versions bulkier, so you had to trade off on tonnage or space...
When FASA put it in, due to the ability to ammo swap between cluster and solid shot, everyone and their dog dumped AC/10's for LB-10X's, as it was smaller (by 1 crit and 1T) and ran cooler... it honestly had the stats that the AC/10 should've had in the first place. To avoid something similar with the LB-2/5/20 they (FASA) made the IS versions bulkier, so you had to trade off on tonnage or space...
Warning: LBX dump, mostly facts with some speculation (you'll know as I say "I'd like to think" and "I'd like to imagine") May be a fun read if its your cup of tea.
That is true, the outside canonical reason is that LBX was insanely overpowered for what it gave you compared to other weaponry. And unfortunately most people don't play legitimate campaigns with supply, demand, accessibility, etc...because who has time for that without using computer aid (aka Megamek HQ)? As such the stuff that would normally balance that out...basically mattered as much as lore does to MWO, with a perfect example being Clan Omnimechs.
(To elaborate, Clan Omnimechs do not have variants, they have commonly accepted configurations. You had to be particularly deserving to completely customize your omnimech within the limits of doing so. As such common configurations were pretty much just that. However, PGI has made them variants, where "Prime" is a variant with traits unique from "Alpha" (A) configuration, "Beta" ( or "Delta" (C) configuration. Why? Because PGI. I mean have you seen this? Anyway, that's something that always bugged me but I see why PGI did it.)
Anyway.. Lore-wise. No one has ever been able to achieve quite the results of the original designs by Lubalin Ballistics in 2590. (Side note: According to Sarna, the LBX (10) takes advantage of "Endo Steel". Though later LBX weapons use ferro.)
The original description goes like this.
Technical Readout 2750 page 8 said:
LB 10-X AUTOCANNON
This weapon is closely related to the common
AC/10. The design of the LB 10-X uses several types
of lightweight, rapid-heat-dissipation alloys. Though
this makes the weapon costlier, its lighter weight and
need for fewer heat sinks easily makes up for the
expense. Another important feature of the LB 10-X is
its Mercury-IV fire control equipment. This electronic
system gives the cannon a better hit probability at all
ranges, as well as extending its maximum effective
range by 20 percent.
In addition to firing standard Dual-Purpose Armor-
Defeating Rounds, the weapon may also fire a
special Cluster Round that acts much like an anti'
Mech shotgun. After being fired, the round breaks up
into several smaller submunitions. This improves the
chance of striking a critical location on the target, but
also reduces the overall damage done and spreads it
out over the entire target area rather than concentrating
it in one location.
Again that's the first time it is ever introduced into lore. (Ask me about it sometime, and I can show you ECM's intro into lore, pulse lasers as "fully automatic weapons", and what the Beagle originally did.)
What it fails to mention is that the amounts of lighter materials were pretty low (they still wanted people to be able to buy it and repair it), after all it only saved a single ton (you could say it saved more if you include its own dedicated targeting system, which if Artemis is any indication, then you saved 2 tons and one is eaten by the TS.)
Now, a "Shotgun" with a fancy fire control system doesn't make much sense, but notice it says "acts" as opposed to "is." Know what else acts like an anti-aircraft shotgun, but isn't?
Smart flak shells. As it happens, the TechManual (2007) specifically describes the LBX as firing "flak-like" cluster shells.
Depending on the setting prior to firing, by a targeting computer which decides the optimum setting, at the time of firing, for each individual bullet so that the shell will ideally 'activate' within 1 millisecond of the target.
The 3P shells of real life detonate (or in BT speak "fragment") after firing, within proximity of the target. The end result looks like a shotgun hit it. This explains the exceptional range (as LBX has superior range to standard ACs) and increased chance to hit (even if you're going to miss, its close to the target when it explodes sending small explosive projectiles at the target).
I should note, unlike the 3P, the "fragments" of Battletech's cluster shot is explosive and has identical explosive power to LRMs.
In other words, its a flak cannon where the 'pellets' are actually cluster bombs delivered by a shell.
Its worth mentioning that LBXs are supposedly fully automatic, firing many times, each with the shells exploding. After all it is stiill an autocannon. Autocannons are typically semi to fully automatic.
So if you wondered why MWLL has fully automatic LBX weaponry, that's why.
This said... like AC damage, LBX damage is actually meant to reflect the firing of a full salvo not a single shot, this means that each pellet isn't actually as strong as an LRM and that damage is accumulative. Which if you think about it, a single shell outpowering a missile (even if the missile is basically the same as a Stinger) doesn't make much sense, but many shells collectively does.
Also who'd buy an autocannon that could only shoot once every10 seconds? With the full rules any AC can shoot two salvos. Factor the original Solaris in, and you can manage 3 to 4 salvos... But real life (rotary) autocannons can pump out shells at rates of hundreds in a few seconds. Typically though for their calibers, BT ACs as described fire about as fast their real life counter parts (57mm fire, probably not at its full rate) (100MM rapid fire)
Think about that for a second. And remember the link I had earlier about autocannons? In 1987 they cleared up the misunderstanding, saying that each mislabelled 'round' on the ammo counting display was a full cassette (magazine) of shells. I believe it even specifies those are usually "4 to 100" shells per cassette. Which 1 round is "one cassette" so when your AC/20 has 5 rounds, that's 5 cassettes, which is 5 magazines of ammunition per ton that accumulates to 20 damage. (Note that at the time, the largest caliber ever stated was 185mm.)
As such, one can expect something similar of LBX. Though, given the explosive nature of the shells and that its standard ammo is still 2 or 3 times more expensive than regular AC ammo, I like to imagine that the LBX is a cross between the Mech Rifles (big, high caliber tank rounds of modern day earth instead of the IFV-style and AA cannons that BT actually uses for ACs) to make room for its air-burst-like flak-like cluster bomb spreading concept and BT's traditional ACs. I like to envision that its shells are longer even when the girth (caliber) is identical, that they would still be automatic but slower firing, and that the shells detonate as they get within a set range of the actual target, allowing the pellets to spread within a reasonable distance to the target even when considering the LBX-2 is the longest range weapon in BT, and in Megamek when you combine AToW (or is it MaxTech's) sniper skill on a pilot with Tac-Ops extreme range rule, you can land a hit with the LBX-2 at 2160m and still net both of the cluster 'pellets' to hit.
(To note: the full article of the AC 'round' system as magazines of shells scan, also states that the maximum range of an AC is 2,000 meters. But like with real guns... the maximum effective range pales in comparison to the maximum possible range. Doing the same with an AC/2 [note in both cases I'm talking IS] is 1920 meters. Wanna know something fun? MWO's max AC/2 range.... 1,440 meters. MWO's max LBX-2 range? 2,430 meters. Hm...)
I 've seen a table lately that did show average spotting and engagement ranges in a given background.
MBT was 1.8km so an effective AC range of 1.5-2km is correct (and battle force ranges have those ranges)
When you take the description of the Tro3050 when it arrived you also have some ideas how those ACs work.
Ultra is described as smooth bore with modified loading mechanism. Can't say that I remember if LBX was also named smoothbore.
But smoothbore = subcaliber with fins, maybe base-bleed
So the Ultra fires obvious smaller shells then a comparable StdAc. So say 80mm Wolverine AC becomes might fire 40mm shells with 57 or even 80mm sabot.
The 80mm Luxor 8-10 round clip becomes a 4-5 round 120mm LBX that night fire the old 80mm rounds encased in a sabot but muzzle velocity is much better - so range and damage even with reduced number of rounds.
When you take super clan tech they might simple take the shells available and 3d print a casing with fins that they bolt on and a sabot.
And suddenly your 203mm Ultra 20 can fire either scary 203mm heat or 50mm rounds at extreme speeds.
The caliber of the shell prior to launch doesn't change until after firing so that confused me at first. Though if you're counting the caliber of the sabot after discarding the initial casing... That still doesn't explain 40mm shells from an 80mm barrel.
That aside ultra only uses a singular ammo type in fluff. And fairly certain it isn't using sabot as there is an ac ammo using it and it's not available for the ultra. Believe they are described as "HEAP" akin to standard acs.
Just read however while trying to confirm that.... They fire a round cased in highly magnetic material with a magnetic loading system in order to reload faster than mechanical methods (this sounds like sci-fi nonsense). The actual projectile is enhanced with an aluminum and foamed titanium alloy. Their lighter nature also allows more shells per cassette (meaning it does indeed fire more smaller rounds to get rated damage) but apparently it is still an identical number of cassettes per ton. There's no mention of discarding any casing like a sabot but the art definitely looks like a finned projectile. The shell has no mention of explosive content either (given it's smaller nature I guess that makes sense.). The weapon itself is described as having a shorter smoothbore barrel compared to similar traditional acs. Like traditional acs it typically has a single barrel but also like them it can have multiple rotating barrels. The lighter materials and higher velocity allow it to achieve greater ranges and the necessarily shorter bara is needed to experience shells out faster. However due to the feed system that it is completely incompatible with any other round type.
Learned something new today.
It goes on to say that a single uac/5 is less accurate than a pair of ac/5s mounted together as the full rate of fire suffers badly from kickback.
From the sound of it depending on how many additional shells it has to fire down range a burst from the ultra may be shorter than that of an ac. But between being smaller and no mention of explosive material (and more shells per firing for the same tally of damage), ultra ac shots are definitely weaker per projectile.
The weapon's barrel can take substantial heat better than traditional acs according to that same tidbit. Unlike acs jamming is caused by thermal expansion of the reloading mechanism. (ACs pushed to fire more frequently can have mechanical failures, feeding chamber jams and the barrel warping under the heat which results in the STD ac exploding).
I love digging through this stuff. Got some ideas for my battletech mod now.
(Most of this was derived from here. http://www.sarna.net...ltra_Autocannon I've checked four out of the five sources and confirmed them. The only one I can't check is Era Report 2750. I don't have it.)
(From my list of autocannons and calibers... I see it is somewhat lacking, but samples I have are 40 and 50mm "General Motors Nova/5 Ultra" on Cataphracts in Binding Force and Illusion of Victory and an 80mm Imperator Ultra/5 mounted on both the Vulcan [which is coming out in MWO] and the 'Daikyu' . I need a wider sample selection, but it is noteworthy that I don't have any ultra/5s above 80mm and no ultra 10s. [Of another funny note of all the ACs, 10's whether standard or LBX don't fall out of the range of 70 to 120mm, I have no samples of anything higher or lower).
The kind of ammo you are shooting is not depending if it is using a sabot or not.
Well I think the ideal ammo would be this new developed Frangile Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot rounds. No explosives included just physics with same performance as a HEAP (later reminds me at W2 Warship or Tank rounds)
Ok of course there is the metal explosive stuff as well (casing if the SRM can explode, sounds like a good way for suicide)
But on a side note here is a little more that shows lbx is not a shotgun as the more literal shotgun is developed as an ammo type for STD and light acs.
Considering that a superior "shotgun" with explosive projectiles already exists it's hard to imagine why any time would be wasted creating shotgun-like ammo without the explosive component.
But if I ever get skilled enough to mod MW5 mercs then here is a way to have shotguns and a proper lbx.
Well it seems that the "Devs" of Catalyst (although Flechette was FASA already) did not spend half the time in "research" as we do. This is the paradox of Creators vs Fans.
The best guess for the LBX ammunition is that its a kind of artillery shell that releases sub-munition usually HEDP warheads. Although I don't know how you want to release them when the target is in front of the incoming round.
Alternative is to use a kind of metal storm system.... so each LBX round are a kind of disposable one-shot barrels that might contain 20 or more sub caliber ammunition. Range and precision is bad.
Spoiler
(while googling for Behive.... this might be the concept for LBX.... This would make sense
Simple because it could describe the different loading mechanism quite good.
Did you ever wonder why the "artist" let the LBX look this way?
The answer is simple. The "incoming" ammunition can be fired as "1-shot package" see the 40mm or fired as single bullet stream through longer barrels at higher velocity.
The Flechette however is simple...
although the correct name should be behive.
It releases several steel darts with the velocity of the main round... although it should be rather a canister. They have the advantage over the 40mm explosive Grenades of the LBX that they disperse far better. The more projectiles the higher the chance to hit something. And when each "Dart" on its own is also frangible you have even more unhealthy shards polluting the air.
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MechaBattler, on 27 September 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:
or "Delta" (C) configuration. Why? Because PGI. I mean have you seen 
