139 replies to this topic

[R5D4]

Khobai, on 20 August 2018 - 06:32 PM, said:

if the gamemodes had in-game purchasing with credits earned during the game or ticket based respawns where mechs cost tickets baesd on their tonnage that would actually made assaults "cost" considerably more than lights it would bring things back into parity. Teams could not drop all assaults every wave because the cost would be too high.

thats what MWLL did to solve the problem and it worked great.

For a Respawn gamemode like FP that probably makes sense but the more I hear/read about PGI's approach to MWO right now the more I assume they would never put THAT much effort into this game.

Have you listened to the faction play podcast? https://soundcloud.c...y-w-paul-inouye
very much a Minimal Viable Product mentality atm with the usual -- they just don't have the resources (people, time, etc...) reasons.

Edited by R5D4, 20 August 2018 - 06:44 PM.

[Requiemking]

Khobai, on 20 August 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

Not sure why youre blaming rescale. Because assaults are the worst scaled mechs in the game. If anything needs to be rescaled to proper size its assaults.

If scaling was consistent based on weight, a 100 ton assault like the atlas or direwolf would only be 3 times bigger than a 35 ton jenner. Not the 5-6 times they actually are. Most assaults get totally screwed on scaling.

I dont believe scaling is the problem for lights (assaults suffer far more from bad scaling than lights ever will). I still think one of the biggest problems with lights is their inability to fully take advantage of their speed and dictate where engagements happen. Largely because of how static and undynamic the skirmish-based gamemodes are; fights pretty much always happen in the same exact place and theres nothing to really discourage deathballing or incentivize teams splitting up. Thats why conquest is the best gamemode.

Again I mostly chalk the problem upto bad gamemodes. Lights suffer when they have to attack into deathballs because they can be focused down so easily. But when the enemy team is forced to split up more thats where lights can really engage on their own terms. And most gamemodes (other than conquest) just dont do that. Gamemodes like skirmish/domination/etc... are what hurt lights more than anything, theyre toxic gamemodes that promote stale repetitive gameplay and encourage behaviors like deathballing.

Scaling is an issue, which is most blatantly visible with the 35 tonners.

Edited by Requiemking, 20 August 2018 - 06:46 PM.

[R5D4]

Khobai, on 20 August 2018 - 06:32 PM, said:

it exists. 4v4 scout mode and its actually one of the best gamemodes IMO (at least when people decide to fight instead of being cowards, but that ruins every gamemode).

unfortunately the rewards for scout mode suck and should be way better

Going to be honest, I forgot that mode even exists
It's just that important to me I guess; I was more meaning a full 12 v 12 (not 4v4) game mode when I was speaking before.

And from what little I remember of Scout mode, and my memory is faded to be sure, it used to be exactly what I describe ECM vs Streaks, probably why I erased it from my memory

Edited by R5D4, 20 August 2018 - 06:54 PM.

[Prototelis]

Not really, Skillcrows aren't nearly as common as they used to be.

Nowadays its fast brawl or stand on tripods and in squares with some kiting and other shenanigans in between.

[Khobai]

Requiemking, on 20 August 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

Scaling is an issue, which is most blatantly visible with the 35 tonners.

this is simply not true at all.

if you compare assaults to lights can clearly see its assaults that are scaled wrong.

for example an atlas should only be 3 times bigger than a jenner (its three times the weight). assuming the atlas is made of the same materials with the same density and isnt made of air/styrofoam like it apparently is in MWO. In MWO the atlas is like 5-6 times bigger than a jenner, almost twice the size it should be!

asking for lights to be even smaller is ridiculous, theyre already way too small compared to assaults as is. youve failed to convince me theres a problem with light mech scaling. because all the evidence supports the contrary.

now mediums on the other hand, theyre scaled pretty bad, maybe even worse than assaults. but lights are fine. again scaling isnt the problem with lights.

Edited by Khobai, 21 August 2018 - 04:30 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Khobai, on 21 August 2018 - 04:17 AM, said:

this is simply not true at all.

if you compare assaults to lights can clearly see its assaults that are scaled wrong.

for example an atlas should only be 3 times bigger than a jenner (its three times the weight). assuming the atlas is made of the same materials with the same density and isnt made of air/styrofoam like it apparently is in MWO. In MWO the atlas is like 5-6 times bigger than a jenner, almost twice the size it should be!

asking for lights to be even smaller is ridiculous, theyre already way too small compared to assaults as is. youve failed to convince me theres a problem with light mech scaling. because all the evidence supports the contrary.

now mediums on the other hand, theyre scaled pretty bad, maybe even worse than assaults. but lights are fine. again scaling isnt the problem with lights.

No.

Nobody said anything about Assaults and Lights being correctly proportionally scaled to one another. That is far from the meaning people are trying to convey when they say scaling with Lights is an issue, which it most certainly is, and has always been most evident when comparing 35 ton Mechs to other Lights--They're the same size that Mediums used to be.

The evidence has been pointing toward 30-35 ton Mechs being too bloody big relative to other Lights from day one. That has nothing to do with whether or not Assaults were also properly scaled. The entire argument boils down to Lights, especially the 35 ton variety, being chain nerfed all the way to, and including, the rescale... which was the final nail in the coffin. What's easier to hit: A shed zipping around at 150kph, or a barn running at 150kph weaving with half the agility of the shed? That's literally the difference between then and now... And it reflects quite clearly in the fact very few of the people playing Lights ever pick anything from the 35 ton range. Why? Because if they wanted to play something as easy to hit as they are now, they'll take an actual Medium/Heavy.


That is what people are talking about when referring to Light Mech Scaling. You are completely missing the point if you're trying to drag other weight classes into it. Does that mean Mediums, Heavies and Assaults are all properly scaled? No. It means Lights were boned by the rescale that, again, has nothing to do with Mediums, Heavies or Assaults.

[Khobai]

so let me get this straight

you want 35 tonners to be smaller because you think theyre too big compared to other lights

regardless of how they scale compared to mediums, heavies, and assaults.

yeah im sorry thats not how scaling works. lights dont exist in a vacuum. they have to be scaled proportionally against all other weight classes.

the volume of a mech should be directly proportional to its tonnage. thats the only way to properly scale mechs. so a 35 ton mech should be roughly twice the size of a 20 ton mech. that actually means 35 tonners like the jenner are way too small if anything.

and again, scaling is hardly the biggest issue with lights. Because even the most inaccurately scaled light is still closer to its correct size than the most inaccurately scaled assault. The king crab is about twice the size it should be if volume was directly proportional to tonnage. Thats magnitudes worse than any light. Its assaults that need to be way smaller if anything.

also we know scaling isnt the biggest problem with lights, because even the lights that are scaled properly are still underperforming. ive already explained what the biggest problem with lights is and how to fix it; the problem is static, repetitious gamemodes and deathballing that make it difficult for lights to isolate enemy mechs and dictate engagements on their own terms. Going back to 8v8 would help lights a ton too (since lights would represent a greater proportion of their team's total tonnage). Fix the gamemodes and lights will perform better.

PGI needs to focus on making lights better at what theyre supposed to be good at. Instead of trying to make them mini-assaults like some people apparently want. or even worse the people that want a 40 heat cap to drag every other weight class down to the same level as lights.

Edited by Khobai, 21 August 2018 - 07:53 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Khobai, on 21 August 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

so let me get this straight

you want 35 tonners to be smaller because you think theyre too big compared to other lights

regardless of how they scale compared to mediums, heavies, and assaults.

yeah im sorry thats not how scaling works. lights dont exist in a vacuum. they have to be scaled proportionally against all other weight classes.

the volume of a mech should be directly proportional to its tonnage. thats the only way to properly scale mechs. so a 35 ton mech should be roughly twice the size of a 20 ton mech. that actually means 35 tonners like the jenner are way too small if anything.

and again, scaling is hardly the biggest issue with lights. Because even the most inaccurately scaled light is still closer to its correct size than the most inaccurately scaled assault. The king crab is about twice the size it should be if volume was directly proportional to tonnage. Thats magnitudes worse than any light. Its assaults that need to be way smaller if anything.

also we know scaling isnt the biggest problem with lights, because even the lights that are scaled properly are still underperforming. ive already explained what the biggest problem with lights is and how to fix it; the problem is static, repetitious gamemodes and deathballing that make it difficult for lights to isolate enemy mechs and dictate engagements on their own terms. Going back to 8v8 would help lights a ton too (since lights would represent a greater proportion of their team's total tonnage). Fix the gamemodes and lights will perform better.

PGI needs to focus on making lights better at what theyre supposed to be good at. Instead of trying to make them mini-assaults like some people apparently want. or even worse the people that want a 40 heat cap to drag every other weight class down to the same level as lights.

It's taken me a couple days to find the ambition to even bother responding to this garbage. You clearly either didn't read what I said or just can't manage to comprehend it. Either way, I'm not saying it again. Your infatuation with making this something it isn't based on whatever nonsensical conclusions or assumptions you've made is incredibly annoying and has discouraged any further interaction with you... Simply put, your 'solution' is a snowball in hell and fails the realistic idea check. Mine, if you ever actually come to comprehend it, at least addresses a fundamental flaw with the way scaling was done and makes Lights relevant in the medium they actually exist in.

If your reply contains any more garbage about assault vs light rescale, special treatment for Lights, or any other fantastical nonsense you've managed to conjure up from a general lack of reading comprehension, I'm not going to bother with you any further.

[MischiefSC]

UnofficialOperator, on 19 August 2018 - 09:45 PM, said:

Shrug. WLR is the true measure of carry. Not really KDR. Shouldn't you know that by now.

Besides I'm refuting the Deathstrike guy because the Ach guy has been driving the HBR recently and I've never ever seen him driving a pir. So HBR overpowered?

Seriously wish you guys will read the thread properly for once then keep trying to derail. Comparing an entire class of Assaults that can carry a team in WLR vs only 1 light which can ks very well is ridiculous imo. Good try trying to reframe it.

'easier' is not 'EZ MODE'.

Winning is the absolute indicator of success. Not damage, not kills. The purpose of the match is to win. If you're winning more than you're being more successful.

[Imperius]

Why isn't this thread in K-Town? Did the mods give up or quit?

[UnofficialOperator]

Imperius, on 24 August 2018 - 07:31 PM, said:

Why isn't this thread in K-Town? Did the mods give up or quit?

Maybe there is a modicum of truth in what I be saying and it resonates with people

[OrmsbyGore]

DrxAbstract, on 20 August 2018 - 02:14 PM, said:

Looking at both extremes of the spectrum, you can fire as many shots at a Light as you would an Assault to secure a kill, however Lights can be exterminated with a fraction of those shots where an Assault could only be missing a limb or two. Couple this with the amount of effort needed for a Light to deal their damage or score kills versus an Assault and it becomes even more lopsided.

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with your sentiment. It seems as though you aren't taking movement/positioning into account. It is much easier for a light mech to avoid getting hit than an assault mech; it is easier for a light to get to an advantageous position on the map, and they have the speed to get there first; it is easier for a light to re-position in response to enemy actions; it is much easier for a light to get behind an assault and peel away the (usually) heavily reduced back armor than the reverse; lights are smaller and tend to draw *less enemy fire; engine de-synch hampered assaults' ability to defend themselves by torso twisting, somewhat undermining their armor advantage over lighter weight classes

Edit: accidently typed more when I meant to say less, now corrected and marked with *

Edited by OrmsbyGore, 26 August 2018 - 09:44 PM.

[Imperius]

UnofficialOperator, on 24 August 2018 - 09:16 PM, said:

Maybe there is a modicum of truth in what I be saying and it resonates with people

Definitely not... I’ve ignored the thread just out of how wrong it actually is. The fighting back in fourth and whatnot should have got it k-towned a while ago. There is name and shame stat shaming. Original discussion points and post attempt to bait people into arguing with your very wrong and skewed view of the assaults vs light situation. Which isn’t a situation in the first place.

[LowSubmarino]

If assaults are ez mode....then by god, jesus and his holy mother.....where are those assault pilots in QP, eh?

The vast majority of them get massacred and instadie barely breaking 250 dmg, falling behind in basically every match to get farmed by lights and fast mediums.

Its completly the other way around.

Surely you meant to say:

Lights are ez mode (cause you just farm tail of nascar train for ez kills all match long and then some) and assault (pilots) need help.

Thats what the title was meant to say....right?

Cause otherwise I wonder what game youve been playing. I rarely....very rarels see a decent assault pilot. Not very often.

[cougurt]

LowSubmarino, on 25 August 2018 - 05:56 AM, said:

If assaults are ez mode....then by god, jesus and his holy mother.....where are those assault pilots in QP, eh?

The vast majority of them get massacred and instadie barely breaking 250 dmg, falling behind in basically every match to get farmed by lights and fast mediums.

Its completly the other way around.

Surely you meant to say:

Lights are ez mode (cause you just farm tail of nascar train for ez kills all match long and then some) and assault (pilots) need help.

Thats what the title was meant to say....right?

Cause otherwise I wonder what game youve been playing. I rarely....very rarels see a decent assault pilot. Not very often.

i see plenty of garbage players still managing 700+ damage with things like SNV-A's, MCII-B's and quad LBX10 anni/cyclops/fafnir. it's far more rare to see light mechs pulling similar numbers in my experience.

this isn't to say that i think assaults are particularly OP, but they're definitely more accessible for most.

[Imperius]

cougurt, on 25 August 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

i see plenty of garbage players still managing 700+ damage with things like SNV-A's, MCII-B's and quad LBX10 anni/cyclops/fafnir. it's far more rare to see light mechs pulling similar numbers in my experience.


this isn't to say that i think assaults are particularly OP, but they're definitely more accessible for most.

DMG doesn’t equate to performance or skill See LRM’s for understanding.

[cougurt]

Imperius, on 25 August 2018 - 07:48 AM, said:

DMG doesn’t equate to performance or skill See LRM’s for understanding.

it's about the most reliable metric of performance that's available, along with match score. anyway, my point is that even extremely bad players can essentially luck their way into the 1,000 damage range from time to time when piloting assaults, whereas that's nearly impossible to do with a light.

[UnofficialOperator]

Imperius, on 25 August 2018 - 05:03 AM, said:

Definitely not... I’ve ignored the thread just out of how wrong it actually is. The fighting back in fourth and whatnot should have got it k-towned a while ago. There is name and shame stat shaming. Original discussion points and post attempt to bait people into arguing with your very wrong and skewed view of the assaults vs light situation. Which isn’t a situation in the first place.

LMAO and what do you know of lights in QP? You are almost a 100% assault pilot in QP. Your bias is showing. No wonder you are trying to defend assaults.

[kuma8877]

cougurt, on 25 August 2018 - 08:21 AM, said:

it's about the most reliable metric of performance that's available, along with match score. anyway, my point is that even extremely bad players can essentially luck their way into the 1,000 damage range from time to time when piloting assaults, whereas that's nearly impossible to do with a light.

A 1k game in a light is having to pack a lunch, so you can sit down and have a break half way through the match, because you doin' some work that day.

[Weeny Machine]

Khobai, on 21 August 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

so let me get this straight

you want 35 tonners to be smaller because you think theyre too big compared to other lights

regardless of how they scale compared to mediums, heavies, and assaults.

yeah im sorry thats not how scaling works. lights dont exist in a vacuum. they have to be scaled proportionally against all other weight classes.

Big word because then the agility stats of heavies and assaults should be also scaled the same way. Yet you have mediums and heavies with agility stats which put the 35t mechs to shame.

An Assassin is much more agile than all 35t mechs and several others, too. A Linebacker is two weight classes higher than a light and 30t heavier, yet his agility stats are also better than those of 35t mechs. Sure, the Linebacker is an extreme example but wouldn't have been agility stats of a medium be enough?

You see, you cannot argue that size should be depended on weight when the same rules do not apply at all to agility stats. Heck, a light mech would survive much longer wouldn't most heavies turn like fat, heavily, to-the-teeth armed ballerinas.

So much for regarding things in a vacuum.

OrmsbyGore, on 25 August 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with your sentiment. It seems as though you aren't taking movement/positioning into account. It is much easier for a light mech to avoid getting hit than an assault mech; it is easier for a light to get to an advantageous position on the map, and they have the speed to get there first; it is easier for a light to re-position in response to enemy actions; it is much easier for a light to get behind an assault and peel away the (usually) heavily reduced back armor than the reverse; lights are smaller and tend to draw more enemy fire; engine de-synch hampered assaults' ability to defend themselves by torso twisting, somewhat undermining their armor advantage over lighter weight classes

Yup, now in reality for 35t mechs these things apply...

1. Moving to a position on the map
Most maps are made that way that you get a minor advantage at best of getting to a certain position. Now, let's assume you are at that position...you cannot hold it anyway because your mates aren't there

2. You can re-position but if the get a LoS on you, you take hits...which your lousy armour cannot afford.

Then you can add:

1. (Near) Instant deaths: Streaks and Dual heavy gauss
2. Less armour
3. Less structure
4. Less heat dispersion
5. Less dps
6. Low alpha
7. Short range (with the exception of e.g. a Raven L sniper etc)
8. 35t mech agility isn't too great - you won't avoid much fire
9. 35t mech size is about medium mech size - you won't avoid much fire

And all these drawbacks for a bit more speed.
There is simply nothing a 35t mech can do which a medium mech can't do better.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 25 August 2018 - 11:50 AM.