20 replies to this topic

[Vellron2005]

So, I've had a new game mode idea that would be played under the Invasion category...

I call the mode "Strike"

Here's how it would work:

Objective of the mode is to destroy / defend three support structures (supply depots) randomly placed on QP invasion maps. Depots are defended by turrets.

You get 1 mech per player, and it's played 4 Vs 4. You can bring only heavy and assault mechs.

Winning this mode contributes towards getting sensor, radar and jammer for invasion in the same way scouting does.

And for god's sake, please fix the betty telling us that our satellites have been linked to non-existing artillery!

Idea for the mode comes from the awesomely fun gameplay in the PTS; where 4 vs 4 but with assaults. is actually hella fun, with it's own tactics and strategies..

Edited by Vellron2005, 04 September 2018 - 12:33 AM.

[TWIAFU]

So long as my team can take 4 assassins and farm salt, sure, why not.

[Abaddun]

Not actually a bad idea.

I don't mind a little more diversity in my gameplay, though I'm worried it might be dominated by fast heavies like the Linebacker.

Edited by Abaddun, 04 September 2018 - 09:05 AM.

[Spheroid]

Impossible to balance. The performance difference at the top end is too pronounced between tech bases.

The only assaults that excel for I.S. are too role restricted. Do you think that heavy gauss or quad LBX10 is fast enough for objective play? I don't. Clan UAC spam will incinerate them before they close.

If you restrict via weight the ability to take the Marauder IIC or Mad Cat you are left only with the Gargoyle, which is a complete joke.

It would be far better to simply have a 1,1,1,1 mode where the meta is a balance between all weight classes(subject to tonnage restrictions). Many more usable combinations are possible that way.

Anything with an objective will go Clan. If I.S. takes beefy heavies like Roughnecks then Clan takes Linebackers and wins via better speed.

Edited by Spheroid, 04 September 2018 - 09:54 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

Spheroid, on 04 September 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

Impossible to balance. The performance difference at the top end is too pronounced between tech bases.

The only assaults that excel for I.S. are too role restricted. Do you think that heavy gauss or quad LBX10 is fast enough for objective play? I don't. Clan UAC spam will incinerate them before they close.

If you restrict via weight the ability to take the Marauder IIC or Mad Cat you are left only with the Gargoyle, which is a complete joke.

It would be far better to simply have a 1,1,1,1 mode where the meta is a balance between all weight classes(subject to tonnage restrictions). Many more usable combinations are possible that way.

Anything with an objective will go Clan. If I.S. takes beefy heavies like Roughnecks then Clan takes Linebackers and wins via better speed.

IS Dakka is stronger than Clan Dakka... 4x UAC5 CP-S or 6x AC2 MAL-MX90 or 6x AC2 ANH-2A are all up to the task of killing Mad Cat II's. The Mad Cat is slightly faster, but only by like 10 KPH or so. The VTR-9S can go 80+ KPH with an AC20 + SRM6 loadout, and will kill linebackers dead. Sure, the LBK's are faster, but the Victors aren't exactly slow.

I don't think the disparity between the tech bases is such that you can say balance is a reason not to do this. I'd kind of like a 4 vs 4 'mini-siege' type game, where one team needs to destroy the base and the other needs to attack it. I don't know about randomly scattering buildings across the map though, I'd rather they just do something simpler, like maybe use the pre-existing incursion bases or something.

Edited by Eisenhorne, 04 September 2018 - 10:34 AM.

[Spheroid]

I.S. dakka is a joke. It hasn't been good since the over quirked Jager-DD or Mauler. That was a long, long time ago.

I.S. ballistic is garbage. I can get much better results from laser boats even on Vitric. (On edit: 3x RAC-2 is okay)

Edited by Spheroid, 04 September 2018 - 10:45 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

Spheroid, on 04 September 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

I.S. dakka is a joke. It hasn't been good since the over quirked Jager-DD or Mauler. That was a long, long time ago.

I.S. ballistic is garbage. I can get much better results from laser boats even on Vitric.

ok.... Maybe you just need to learn to aim? AC2 dakka from long range is extremely deadly, and IS does it way better than clans. The Ultraviolet can do it decently well, but it's hardpoints and durability are significantly worse than all IS assaults. An AC2 Annihilator will take out a MCII-B 100% of the time. Just slowly walk towards it, opening fire at 1KM, and by the time your within the MCII's optimal range it will be crippled or dead. The MX90 can't do that as well, but it should still be able to trade fairly well with a MCII if you can open fire at 800+ meters.

[Brauer]

Spheroid, on 04 September 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

I.S. dakka is a joke. It hasn't been good since the over quirked Jager-DD or Mauler. That was a long, long time ago.

I.S. ballistic is garbage. I can get much better results from laser boats even on Vitric. (On edit: 3x RAC-2 is okay)

IS dakka is definitely not dead. My 2xUAC5 and 2xUAC10 Anni routinely puts up numbers at least as high as my DHG Anni, though with a bias more towards raw damage than the DHGs bias towards kills. I know some pilots who do great with energy boats on Vitric, but DHG and dakka work much better for me.

[justcallme A S H]

I'm not seeing how this mode suggestion really adds anything at all. Especially on invasion maps.

Spheroid, on 04 September 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

I.S. dakka is a joke. It hasn't been good since the over quirked Jager-DD or Mauler. That was a long, long time ago.

I.S. ballistic is garbage. I can get much better results from laser boats even on Vitric. (On edit: 3x RAC-2 is okay)

Well that couldn't be more wrong.

[Spheroid]

Listen how many Maulers do you see in QP where there are no tech restrictions? If it was the best dakka people would gravitate towards it. Mad Cats vastly outnumber Maulers. How do you explain this?

You can't, just deal with it. The professional seal clubbers are not I.S. running UAC, they are Clan for a reason. The killing is better.

Clan can also spam LBX-2 at a lighter weight. I will trade Night Gyr vs. Mauler all day long. Its a good tonnage trade.

[Eisenhorne]

Spheroid, on 04 September 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

Listen how many Maulers do you see in QP where there are no tech restrictions?

I don't care about quick play, it's pointless, since maps / modes / teams are all random anyway, and is inherently imbalanced. I'm talking Faction play. A Mauler will take out a Night Gyr any day of the week, if both have equal skill at aiming. The Mauler has more armor and more guns, and carries more ammo. Granted, the Mauler is weaker than the Annihilator though, which is what I'd generally prefer to take as a dakka mech. The ANH will eat a Night Gyr for breakfast and ask for seconds at long range with AC2 spam.

[Spheroid]

Eisenhorne, on 04 September 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

ok.... Maybe you just need to learn to aim? A

My aim appears adequate.

[Eisenhorne]

OK sphere, I sat down and did some math.

IS with 6 AC2's is 16.68 DPS, with an optimal range of ~880 meters after quirks for full damage, pinpoint damage.

Clan with 2 UAC10 + 2 UAC5 is 14 DPS without double tapping, at an optimal range of ~600 after quirks, but not pinpoint.

Double tapping obviously boosts that DPS, but UAC5/10 builds are also much hotter than AC2 builds, so I'd say those cancel pretty much. Given the IS armor and durability over the clan mechs... its looking like IS AC2 spam is better on paper than clan weapons, though clans will have an advantage in shorter range engagements where they can burst fire before overheating / jamming.

Not seeing how clan weapons are "so much better".

[K O Z A K]

The only reason you see way more clan dakka assaults in qp than IS is because the speed disparity is just enough for your mk2 to keep up with your team while your dakka mauler/anni/etc in 75% of drops is just going to be used by your team as a speed bump for the enemy while they try to nascar their tail.

[justcallme A S H]

Spheroid, on 04 September 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

Listen how many Maulers do you see in QP where there are no tech restrictions? If it was the best dakka people would gravitate towards it. Mad Cats vastly outnumber Maulers. How do you explain this?

You can't, just deal with it. The professional seal clubbers are not I.S. running UAC, they are Clan for a reason. The killing is better.

Clan can also spam LBX-2 at a lighter weight. I will trade Night Gyr vs. Mauler all day long. Its a good tonnage trade.

I've actually been running a MX90 in QP last season and FP the past 8 weeks or so, among other less common mechs, just to see how they are.

The MX90 while not having God quirks anymore, can out stare most mechs if you position right - so 600m+. I run it with 4xUAC2/2xAC2 for cold maps and outright 6xAC2 for hot. It is extremely strong, I'm telling you this.. You can also run AC5s and that PPFLD 25-30 damage is utterly brutal.

Again it's like most things in MWO. It's dynamic. Some things are strong/weak in varying areas. A LBX2 NTG is not going to outtrade a AC2 MX90, not ever.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 04 September 2018 - 02:35 PM.

[Abaddun]

Eisenhorne, on 04 September 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

OK sphere, I sat down and did some math.

IS with 6 AC2's is 16.68 DPS, with an optimal range of ~880 meters after quirks for full damage, pinpoint damage.

Clan with 2 UAC10 + 2 UAC5 is 14 DPS without double tapping, at an optimal range of ~600 after quirks, but not pinpoint.

First off, you're comparing two radically different weapon systems. Duel UAC10+dual UAC5 excells at short engagement bursts over midrange. On a MAD MKII, which can more at a reasonable speed of 64 KPH, Which is far faster then an annihilator running a Light 300 engine which is far more than an annihilator running an absolute max engine, which heavily plays into the Mad Cats favour as we all know, speed is king in MWO.

On the other hznd AC2s are a direct fire support weapon that works best at, like you said, 720 metres, however, you compared 36 tons of IS weaponry against 34 tons of Clan weaponry, which will scew your data, and you compared a set of DPS weapons to a quad of burst, further scewing your data.

Might I add, another thing you must consider is that Clan mechs by their very nature have more weapon pod space, allowing for more weapons to be added which fill in the gaps of a build.

And finally, Clan mechs can do the AC2 build as well, but they're better at it! CAC2s have a 180 metre longer optimal range, a 360 longer max range, weigh 1 ton less and are identicle in every other ways aside from to 2 extra crit slots which is mitigated by smaller Clan Endo and heat sinks.

Now, I personally prefer IS mechs out of Nostalgia, but it is clear to me that Clan mechs have the edge over IS mechs, from a pure weaponry point of view. I said it when they they first came out and I'll say it again, Clan mechs are impossible to balance without pissing off the Lore Boys. But I actually think smashing Clan weapons with the nerf hammer is a bit too much. A tweak here and there, but so long as I feel a sense of accomplishment taking an objectively weaker mech and besting a stronger one, I'm happy.

Edited by Abaddun, 04 September 2018 - 04:12 PM.

[Xaat Xuun]

so what I have read so far,
new game mode idea
and basically 4 mechs that would be used in it, with most discussion on the mech builds

this mode, sounds more like a Quick play option, or just another mode to use Scouting Decks for.

I can see how this could work for a added mode in the Scouting (though it's not actually scouting) rotation, as some had mentioned about what mechs players would just bring, for such a mode, maybe just using the scouting deck.
How it falls into play into scouting, I don't know.
but to me it looks like another option for having 1 mech and in a 4v4. we have decks already in the game for just one mech, and already for 4v4.
call it Strike, or Seek & Destroy

on a win you have removed any advancement (Tug-o-War Bar) they had gained in actual scouting intel gathering, the Combat ID and such, since you destroyed the communication depot

just a thought

[K O Z A K]

Abaddun, on 04 September 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

First off, you're comparing two radically different weapon systems. Duel UAC10+dual UAC5 excells at short engagement bursts over midrange. On a MAD MKII, which can more at a reasonable speed of 64 KPH, Which is far faster then an annihilator running a Light 300 engine which is far more than an annihilator running an absolute max engine, which heavily plays into the Mad Cats favour as we all know, speed is king in MWO.

On the other hznd AC2s are a direct fire support weapon that works best at, like you said, 720 metres, however, you compared 36 tons of IS weaponry against 34 tons of Clan weaponry, which will scew your data, and you compared a set of DPS weapons to a quad of burst, further scewing your data.

Might I add, another thing you must consider is that Clan mechs by their very nature have more weapon pod space, allowing for more weapons to be added which fill in the gaps of a build.

And finally, Clan mechs can do the AC2 build as well, but they're better at it! CAC2s have a 180 metre longer optimal range, a 360 longer max range, weigh 1 ton less and are identicle in every other ways aside from to 2 extra crit slots which is mitigated by smaller Clan Endo and heat sinks.

Now, I personally prefer IS mechs out of Nostalgia, but it is clear to me that Clan mechs have the edge over IS mechs, from a pure weaponry point of view. I said it when they they first came out and I'll say it again, Clan mechs are impossible to balance without pissing off the Lore Boys. But I actually think smashing Clan weapons with the nerf hammer is a bit too much. A tweak here and there, but so long as I feel a sense of accomplishment taking an objectively weaker mech and besting a stronger one, I'm happy.

Speed is not king in many parts of mwo, wth is a "direct fire support weapon"?, clan AC2 builds are better at it? You do know there are 2 parts to the trading equation? Dishing out damage and receiving it?

Your objectivity is really good at picking out parts of the balance problem that support your opinion and ignoring the parts that don't. You should take your "objectively" superior mech and see how it does 1v1 vs the "objectively" inferior annis in solaris (if u can find a drop, lol).

[Tarl Cabot]

How would the Anni fare if it did not have those defensive quirks? The Atlas? Almost all the IS assault mechs have defensive quirks.. exception? ROFL Stalkers has no defensive quirks, did someone put a Stalker where Paul/Russ didnt like it? Then there are only 2 of the Banshees have no defensive quirks, then only CT for the others, and all but one Battlemaster has them set for the arms only, while the 2C is almost a full set. Maulers are RT/LT except for one variant.

[K O Z A K]

Tarl Cabot, on 05 September 2018 - 05:25 PM, said:

How would the Anni fare if it did not have those defensive quirks? The Atlas? Almost all the IS assault mechs have defensive quirks.. exception? ROFL Stalkers has no defensive quirks, did someone put a Stalker where Paul/Russ didnt like it? Then there are only 2 of the Banshees have no defensive quirks, then only CT for the others, and all but one Battlemaster has them set for the arms only, while the 2C is almost a full set. Maulers are RT/LT except for one variant.

You're doing the same exact thing I've described above, picking and choosing facts that support your argument while ignoring those that don't. We're not playing a game where mechs don't have quirks are we? So why even mention it. That's like saying all clan rainbow vomit mechs wouldn't fare well if CERMLs wasn't in the game, while technically true it's a useless point.

Stalkers don't have defensive quirks because they have a ridiculously good vertical poke profile.