129 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

thievingmagpi, on 04 October 2018 - 02:49 PM, said:

which clan mechs are superior to Annihilators? Fafnirs? Sleipnirs? Wolfhounds? Commandos? Bushwackers? Crabs? Assassins? K9s?

in 1v1 clans arnt superior. because IS armor/structure quirks are immensely powerful in 1v1. but I think we can pretty much all agree solaris was a failure and the game should not be balanced around 1v1 anyway.

but in 12v12, clans still have a huge advantage over IS because of their vastly superior mobility, better heat dissipation, and stronger firepower, particularly at midrange.

what are you gonna do? keep repeatedly nerfing clans and making clans even less fun to play? lol what?

It makes far more sense just to buff ISXL so it survives side torso destruction. It balances the game while sparing clans from even more miserable nerfs.

thievingmagpi, on 04 October 2018 - 02:49 PM, said:

It's also boring as ****.

youre implying the game isnt boring as **** already. it is. so it makes no real difference.

if the game is going to be boring either way, id rather the game be boring and balanced than boring and unbalanced.

PGI has proven themselves utterly incapable of asymmetrical balance. So why keep digging the game deeper into that hole? It will never lead to a satisfactorily balanced game.

If PGI was gonna get it right they wouldve done it by now (its been 4+ years). asymmetrical balance is an unobtainable fantasy. that is the dream shattering reality.

Edited by Khobai, 04 October 2018 - 03:04 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

in 1v1 theyre not superior. because armor/structure quirks are immensely powerful in 1v1. but I think we can pretty much all agree solaris was a failure and the game should not be balanced around 1v1 anyway.




but in 12v12, clans still have a huge advantage over IS because of their superior mobility, better heat dissipation, and generally stronger firepower, particularly at midrange.

Answer my question please.

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

youre implying the game isnt boring as **** already. it is. so it makes no real difference.

I've played ~400 games this season.

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

if the game is going to be boring either way, id rather the game be boring and balanced than boring and unbalanced.

There is no unbalanced. Quickplay isn't based around anything beyond random drops. The distinction between "clan vs IS" is something you've invented. Don't like dying? Bring a better mech.

EZ

[BrunoSSace]

I dont like using IS Assults. Because IS Assults cant run Xl Safely. Its true Certain mechs can do it but in reality its suicide and you can be a hindrances to your team if you die to early.
I started dabbling( with Assults ) when the Light engine was released. It made them atlest use able for me. Hate to think what would happen if IS xl engines didn't blow up from a side destruction. I would probably play more Assults.

My golden rule is, xl is only for lights and mediums. Shouldn't be used unless is a certain mech or build that needs it. Its only Light Engines for Heavies and Assults.

[Nightbird]

IS and Clan mechs, including quirks and equipment differences, do not show any appreciable performance differences in FP. With the next patch, clan laser vomit damage will also be reduced via equipment stat reductions (but IS survival quirks will be reduced at the same time, net change intended to be 0)

Engine changes are not on the table, but by all means vent let it all out

Edited by Nightbird, 04 October 2018 - 03:06 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

thievingmagpi, on 04 October 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

Answer my question please.

Answer mine first please. Don't go double standards on us. I like you.

Edited by VonBruinwald, 04 October 2018 - 03:08 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

VonBruinwald, on 04 October 2018 - 03:07 PM, said:

Answer mine first please. Don't go double standards on us. I like you.

what are you talking about?

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

its time to balance the game in a way thats so simple that even PGI can handle it.

Just dump the BT IP and go full generic robot game.

[Appogee]

MrXanthios, on 04 October 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

Yes, because having one orange and one apple of the same weight is the same thing as balancing a game where there are 3 different weapon groups, in those 3 groups there are other subgroups, then we have 4 different mech classes, spread across 2 factions. In those 2 factions, the 4 mech classes and the mechs provided in each one are completely different in terms of shape, agility, firepower, role. And we have the engines, which are also different.
I see more posts than I can count about people wanting balance, but yet, when someone proposes to simplify thing, to at least reduce the difference between the two factions present in the game, everyone is like no, IS and clan are supposed to be different. Yes, they are, but maybe they are too different, and probably there will never be any balance between the two as long as we continue insisting on this point. Making the isXL able to lose one torso would be a start to simplify thing and really take a step towards balance. What I would do is to just remove all together the presence of lfe, convert all the lfe to xl engines. Another good idea I read here is the one presented by El Bandito, about giving isXL a bigger tonnage discount, and I would agree to that as long as it's not some pgi-style cheap ****, like 1-2 tons. that advantage must be massive in the range of 3-5 tons less than cXL.

It's entirely possible to balance difference factions with different weapons and capabilities. RTS games like Dune, C&C etc all showed that.

Imagine playing C&C where each faction had the same capabilities. It would be boring.

The same applies to MWO.

[Mystere]

Appogee, on 04 October 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

It's entirely possible to balance difference factions with different weapons and capabilities. RTS games like Dune, C&C etc all showed that.

Imagine playing C&C where each faction had the same capabilities. It would be boring.

The same applies to MWO.

Put on your flame suit before someone chimes in that in MWO a player only has one Mech.

[Khobai]

Appogee, on 04 October 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

It's entirely possible to balance difference factions with different weapons and capabilities. RTS games like Dune, C&C etc all showed that.

Imagine playing C&C where each faction had the same capabilities. It would be boring.

The same applies to MWO.

C&C doesnt exist anymore. obviously that didnt work out.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:

C&C doesnt exist anymore. obviously that didnt work out.

That's not the fault of balancing, that's the fault of EA.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 04 October 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

That's not the fault of balancing, that's the fault of EA.

it was definitely the fault of balancing

considering C&C multiplayer games literally just consisted of who could tank rush better

C&C multiplayer was pretty much the worst RTS multiplayer experience ever. the total lack of multiplayer balancing and zero esport potential is one of the reasons C&C never took off like starcraft did. and its certainly at least in part responsible for the franchise failing. and the only reason starcraft was successful as an esports is because blizzard got the asymmetrical balancing right. so yeah its possible for other developers to succeed with asymmetrical balance, just not for PGI... PGI is laughably incapable of it.

and yeah there are other reasons C&C failed, just like there are other reasons MWO is failing.

but lets not pretend that balance problems isnt one of the reasons. it definitely is.

if PGI keeps listening to the asymmetrical balance crowd, MWO balance is never going to improve. look at PGI's track record with asymmetrical balance, let that speak for itself. Their whole balance approach is a massive failure and patterned after a dog chasing its own tail, going in circles by making the same mistakes over and over. its time to take a different approach: one that doesnt require constantly going in circles and second guessing every balance change.

Edited by Khobai, 04 October 2018 - 04:58 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

it was definitely the fault of balancing

considering C&C multiplayer games literally just consisted of who could tank rush better

C&C multiplayer was pretty much the worst RTS multiplayer experience ever

and yeah there are other reasons C&C failed, just like there are other reasons MWO is failing.

but lets not pretend that balance problems isnt one of the reasons. it definitely is.

The franchise managed to cling on to life until CnC4 got released. That was the death blow.

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 04 October 2018 - 04:47 PM, said:

The franchise managed to cling on to life until CnC4 got released. That was the death blow.

Us fans kept MW4 alive till the franchise was picked up again.

Don't count CnC out just yet.

[Appogee]

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

really? because when has PGI ever demonstrated the ability to balance things that are different? not once? in how many years? 4+ years? lol...

You're equating 'what is possible' with 'what PGI chooses to do'. Two completely different concepts.

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

yeah im sorry but that has obviously never worked. and continuing to do the same thing that doesnt work over and over is tantamount to stupidity. so lets not do that anymore.

You mean, like posting balance suggestions to devs who never listen, in a forum they never read?

Quote

its time to balance the game in a way thats so simple that even PGI can handle it.

I doubt that level of simplicity exists.

But it would be possible for devs who played their own game, understood its nuances, and cared about it for more than just the income stream it generates

Edited by Appogee, 04 October 2018 - 06:11 PM.

[Appogee]

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:

C&C doesnt exist anymore. obviously that didnt work out.

It and its spinoffs were the most successful and longest running franchise in PC gaming for twenty years ... until it finally fell into the hands of incompetent developers, who completely misunderstood what made the previous games successful.

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

and the only reason starcraft was successful as an esports is because blizzard got the asymmetrical balancing right. so yeah its possible for other developers to succeed with asymmetrical balance, just not for PGI... PGI is laughably incapable of it.

So you agree with me then. Good, glad we got that settled.

Edited by Appogee, 04 October 2018 - 06:55 PM.

[Koniving]

My answer to the engine debacle is simple.

Stick to the lore. X aount of engine damage (3 slots) and boom it's dead.

Assign engine health. Divide total potential loss against 3 locations for xl and lfe.

STD engine has X health total. Death at that value.
Lfe has Y health total with A in CT and B in each ST. Death at the value of A or 1.5* B.
Xl has Z health and CT has A and St each have B. The value to die at for Clan is 1.5* B or A. IS is 1* A or B.

Death occurs when the set vaue is reached. If the value is say 15 which is mwo's current engine health than at 15 you die. Regardless of 3 to this St 7 to CT and 5 to that St or all 15 to CT.

X Y nd Z do not need to be identical values. But Clan XL should be between the values of LFE and IS XL.

Death by engine should NOT require torso destruction. Just engine destruction.

Edited by Koniving, 04 October 2018 - 07:11 PM.

[Khobai]

Appogee, on 04 October 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

You're equating 'what is possible' with 'what PGI chooses to do'. Two completely different concepts.

its not different at all. because 'what is possible' is limited by 'what PGI is capable of doing'. Its not a matter of PGI choosing, they will simply keep failing at it, just like they have for the last 4+ years.

asymmetrical balance is not within PGI's capability. so stop saying it is. because over four years of evidence points to the contrary.

the only way this games gonna get balanced is if its simplified enough that PGI can handle balancing it.

Appogee, on 04 October 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

It and its spinoffs were the most successful and longest running franchise in PC gaming for twenty years

yeah it was great as a single player game. but it failed as a multiplayer game. it was not balanced well at all in multiplayer it was just tank rushing... literally you just mass produced one single unit. as far as multiplayer was concerned, all the C&C games utterly failed at asymmetrical balance or quite frankly any balance at all. Starcraft is a better example of a game that got asymmetrical balance right. But PGI isnt blizzard lmao.

Edited by Khobai, 04 October 2018 - 08:55 PM.

[Snowbluff]

FupDup, on 03 October 2018 - 05:33 PM, said:

To that effect I've believed in the following changes for a while:
2. IS XL now gives mechs who mount it extra side torso structure and armor such that their ST health equals their CT health. Sidecore death mechanic is retained.

HAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


God this would
1) Make XL so obnoxiously overpowered I would never run anything else
2) Remove the skill of IDing XL builds, as no matter what you do, knowing it's an XL mech won't help you kill the mech any faster.

Edited by Snowbluff, 05 October 2018 - 04:53 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

Pugs and bads want something that they're invincible in.

Of course that totally ignores that such a mech would be so incredibly OP in the hands of anyone competent.


I'm a pretty poor anni pilot. It's too slow, too position dependent and my aim with hgauss is trash. But that's on me. I've seen the havoc it can bring. I headshotted 2 madcats in a row last night. I also run an xl jager bullet sponge and it's one of my best mechs. For me it's better than most my other assaults save maybe sleipnir and madcat.

IS xl brings something interesting to the table. And you know what? I wouldn't hate maybe a minor buff, not to armour or survivability but just to firepower. Perhaps buff heat a bit. I'd like the risk/reward to be more enticing because it's those gameplay elements that make mwo great.