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F To Pay Respect To Rjf, Slayer Of The Entire 228 Organization

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#1 Harambe McHarambeface Kerensky

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Posted 07 October 2018 - 01:20 PM

What a run through the losers bracket, first destroying 228th Wild Ones, then 228th Swamp Foxes, and finally 228th Black Watch. Best of luck next year

#2 justcallme A S H

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Posted 07 October 2018 - 04:39 PM

Yep RJF had a killer run home, very impressive that's for sure. Gotta tip one's hat to them for that even if they did not manage to pull the win off against EmP.


That said I'm not sure RJF will be around next year (as with most teams)... That is the talk at least anyway.

#3 denAirwalkerrr

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Posted 07 October 2018 - 09:40 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 07 October 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:

Yep RJF had a killer run home, very impressive that's for sure. Gotta tip one's hat to them for that even if they did not manage to pull the win off against EmP.


That said I'm not sure RJF will be around next year (as with most teams)... That is the talk at least anyway.

Well we have two full 14 men teams on BFM. But yeah in case it will be same low prize poll and some **** like 3050 Clan and IS stock we’re definitely out.

#4 ClaymoreReIIik

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Posted 07 October 2018 - 11:53 PM

View PostdenAirwalkerrr, on 07 October 2018 - 09:40 PM, said:

Well we have two full 14 men teams on BFM. But yeah in case it will be same low prize poll and some **** like 3050 Clan and IS stock we’re definitely out.


Why the hatred towards unusual game modes? Do you think you can perform better in full mod with some mech choice restrictions or does your team simply enjoy playing full mod more?

Just asking out of curiosity. There has been a lot of animosity against the IS Stock WC, but basically the Teams that usually win the full mod community leagues performed well in the Stock WC. A meta built quickly, as was the case in full mod (always) and the only surprise here is that 228 does not go to canada (again).

I just want to understand your hard posture on "full mod or do it without us".

Best Regards,
Clay

#5 Pelmeshek

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 12:23 AM

View PostClaymoreReIIik, on 07 October 2018 - 11:53 PM, said:


Why the hatred towards unusual game modes? Do you think you can perform better in full mod with some mech choice restrictions or does your team simply enjoy playing full mod more?

Just asking out of curiosity. There has been a lot of animosity against the IS Stock WC, but basically the Teams that usually win the full mod community leagues performed well in the Stock WC. A meta built quickly, as was the case in full mod (always) and the only surprise here is that 228 does not go to canada (again).

I just want to understand your hard posture on "full mod or do it without us".

Best Regards,
Clay

Try to play in low bad armor slow mech with bad armor distribution, there only 7 mech playable and 5 only for some situation/maps. Plus look for prizes for top 12 and check prizes for top 12 in last wc. Plus absolutely bad adv from PGI ([Redacted]). Plus all this WC just are bad adv promo for MW5. So if this game not die in next year we mb play in next WC. Nuff said.

Edited by draiocht, 10 October 2018 - 10:23 AM.
discussing moderation


#6 denAirwalkerrr

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 12:30 AM

View PostClaymoreReIIik, on 07 October 2018 - 11:53 PM, said:


Why the hatred towards unusual game modes? Do you think you can perform better in full mod with some mech choice restrictions or does your team simply enjoy playing full mod more?

Just asking out of curiosity. There has been a lot of animosity against the IS Stock WC, but basically the Teams that usually win the full mod community leagues performed well in the Stock WC. A meta built quickly, as was the case in full mod (always) and the only surprise here is that 228 does not go to canada (again).

I just want to understand your hard posture on "full mod or do it without us".

Best Regards,
Clay


Unusual isn’t same as stupid and unplayable ****. Upcoming BFM is unusual. Some other community based tournaments were unusual. Stock WC is utter cancer, where 80% of games were absolute stalemates with cap wins. FYI we’re 4th place this year and previous year so no, we performed absolutely exactly, EON and EmP again in top 3, it doesn’t matter which mode, best teams will still be best because no beer team will never ever contribute to actually getting good in this game as us, JG-x, 228, PHL, EON, EmP, ISEN.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 08 October 2018 - 12:33 AM.


#7 RJF Volkodav

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 12:55 AM

Thx for support! GGS 228! Good luck to EON, JGx, EMP! Maybe we will meet once again on battlefields.

Edited by RJF Volkodav, 08 October 2018 - 01:34 AM.


#8 RJF Volkodav

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 01:24 AM

View PostClaymoreReIIik, on 07 October 2018 - 11:53 PM, said:

Why the hatred towards unusual game modes?


1) Mode you never play in QP, FP, S7 whatever..
2) Highly restricted mech pool with only few mechs viable
3) Lack of tactical variances because of pool limitation (look at WC matches - almost all the same)
4) "Advanced ran and cap" strats available as of mech speed limitation - is that mech shooting game or? (but thats my personal)
5) Finally bad decisions at compq organization - we had to get up at 5am to get matches at NA time because EU was just empty as long as first 2 weeks passed, 2-3 hrs empty-q wating to get 1 match, specific team avoiding/feeding possible e.t.c. And the majority of this was because that "beer league" understood really fast that it is much harder for them to get into a stock mode. They had a chance to get into with brawling/fastcap/lurmdecks/what_you_have_in_mechlab. But when they were forced to use/buy certain effective stock chassis and use them correctly this just wiped them out. In fact Stock tightened skill/mech requirements for entry. So the effect seemed to be totally opposite of what PGI tried to achieve.

All of that just sums up and lowers team interest in trainings and participation. We are at the end just a people who want to have fun at compq. Even the finals prizes provided cannot compensate such a timewaste with a lack of fun to play.

However, i hope that PGI would might be listening to comp community sometimes and resolve the timewaste/compq problems. Comp play is the only thing that holds most of "old" RJF players ingame.

Edited by RJF Volkodav, 08 October 2018 - 01:31 AM.


#9 Lawrence Elsa

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 02:03 AM

View PostClaymoreReIIik, on 07 October 2018 - 11:53 PM, said:


Why the hatred towards unusual game modes? Do you think you can perform better in full mod with some mech choice restrictions or does your team simply enjoy playing full mod more?

Just asking out of curiosity. There has been a lot of animosity against the IS Stock WC, but basically the Teams that usually win the full mod community leagues performed well in the Stock WC. A meta built quickly, as was the case in full mod (always) and the only surprise here is that 228 does not go to canada (again).

I just want to understand your hard posture on "full mod or do it without us".

Best Regards,
Clay


I agree that stock tournaments with these kind of restrictions have a place, but MWO's overall world championships is not the place. If you're gonna have a world championship it should be the whole game. If you need tonnage limmits to make it interesting just like MRBC, Marik Civil War, Battle for Midway or NBT then sure, but to do stock only AND tech limits? There are chassis that are straight up better than others, and it ironically limits creativity rather than embraces it.

Black Knights, Hunchback 4P, and Wolfhounds were straight up better at dealing damage for their tonnage, with a King Crab being straight up better than an Atlas for brawling, LRMs and lasers. Why bring mechs like a Crab, or a Battlemaster 1G, or a Grasshopper 4H when they're just outright wasted tonnage? TL;DR: Its just replacing the old means of min-maxing with a more limited and less efficient version of what we've been doing all along.

Having stock mode as another tournament wouldn't be so hated, but the fact this replaced the old World Championship has undoubtedly proven that PGI cares more about promoting Mechwarrior 5 than they do the competitive scene.

#10 Mechwarrior8985372

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 04:04 AM

stock is More limiting, less options and playstyles than previous competitions.

#11 Colonel ONeill

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 01:32 PM

View PostClaymoreReIIik, on 07 October 2018 - 11:53 PM, said:


Why the hatred towards unusual game modes? Do you think you can perform better in full mod with some mech choice restrictions or does your team simply enjoy playing full mod more?

Just asking out of curiosity. There has been a lot of animosity against the IS Stock WC, but basically the Teams that usually win the full mod community leagues performed well in the Stock WC.


Stock is utterly boring to play. I guess that's the main reason the comp players leave.

And the rewards are getting worse and worse. If you get 3rd, you get ~5 grands (including supporterpacks) for 12 players. And you have expenses for taxi/food and so on. If you plan to stay some extra days to get rid of the jetlag you might actually lose money Posted Image

#12 RJF Volkodav

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 12:26 AM

I wouldnt in fact complain about prizes volume from this side. I think all the comp scene should thank the community supported that prize pool at the end. It is community who made that possible and i doubt we would have WC2017 and WC2018 without them. Part of that thanks goes to PGI off course as well, but together with complains on format :).

#13 Throe

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 08:41 AM

[deleted by user]

Edited by Throe, 09 November 2018 - 11:31 AM.


#14 Arend

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 01:29 AM

View PostThroe, on 10 October 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

I can think of several ways off the top of my head they could've provided better rules to encourage more variety in the regular season and in the WC, some of which would've actually encouraged casual players to get involved during the regular season.


Why do you even want casual players get involved in the World Championship, a tournament which should be there to determine the best players/teams in the world, casual players don't want to play competitiv MW:O cause to be competetiv you actually have to work for it, you have to train your skill, as a player and as a team, which is the opposite of being a casual player/team!

And at the same time the actuall competetiv players don't want to play a tournament under stupid rule restrictions, which rule out a big part of the actuall skill and tactics that they have trained for!!

Overall this whole stock idea was a huge fail, as a competetiv player it wasn't fun to play, it did not promote more diversity in mech choices, it severe reduced available tactics and it for sure did not lure any casual teams into competitiv MW:O and the few who tried where fast discouraged cause the had to play vs. actuall competetiv teams!

If you want to do something for casual players/teams the should have run another tournament beside the MWOWC with a more casual or even lorefriendly ruleset!

Edited by Arend, 11 October 2018 - 01:33 AM.


#15 ClaymoreReIIik

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 09:40 AM

View PostArend, on 11 October 2018 - 01:29 AM, said:


Why do you even want casual players get involved in the World Championship, a tournament which should be there to determine the best players/teams in the world, casual players don't want to play competitiv MW:O cause to be competetiv you actually have to work for it, you have to train your skill, as a player and as a team, which is the opposite of being a casual player/team!

And at the same time the actuall competetiv players don't want to play a tournament under stupid rule restrictions, which rule out a big part of the actuall skill and tactics that they have trained for!!

Overall this whole stock idea was a huge fail, as a competetiv player it wasn't fun to play, it did not promote more diversity in mech choices, it severe reduced available tactics and it for sure did not lure any casual teams into competitiv MW:O and the few who tried where fast discouraged cause the had to play vs. actuall competetiv teams!

If you want to do something for casual players/teams the should have run another tournament beside the MWOWC with a more casual or even lorefriendly ruleset!


I disagree to part of what you are saying.

I believe that you need to have a way of getting people hooked on competitive gameplay by providing them with a way of competing that has a low entry pre-requisite, BEFORE you let them play with the big boys/girls/gamers.

Stock matches did have a really low pre-requisite and entry threshold.

The problem is that none of the upper tier teams have any interest in bashing on "beer-leaguers" and the "beer-leaguers" have no interest in fighting the top 15 teams at all.

The real failure that PGI has to adress is that it forces the top teams to farm the Queue that should actually be a place where people gain experience.

There is no experience to be had in an environment where people kick your head in without having any incentive to tell you what you did wrong. (The biggest value from a scrimmage is analyzing it after the fact with the opponent, IMHO.) ELO seperation of players only works if you actually have a queue size that launches multiple games and to be quite honest MWO does not have this any more (if it ever really had it).

As long as there is no "team training ground" (and quick play is not the place) provided, the results in the WC are always gonna be the same and the games will be boring to either watch or play in or both.

(Sorry but Canyon Network in first WC was boring and the last full mod WC was totally predictable and boring to watch as well. Maybe it was more fun to play, but it was more boring to watch, IMHO. I actually enjoyed watching the stock WC semifinal games.)

I get what you are saying and if it is your opinion then that is fine, I just think partially otherwise.

Best regards,
Clay

#16 Throe

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 10:35 AM

[deleted by user]

Edited by Throe, 09 November 2018 - 11:30 AM.


#17 Alienized

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 03:14 PM

ironically the so called *best* and *competitive* players are shy of using bad mechs with more challenging loadouts to master and keep on rolling the meta (or the *easiest to play and perform well with*) stuff even in pub solo and whatever.
thats just on top of the team abusing playstyle in solo to rack up their own dmg/kill/whatever stuff.
thats a huge conflict and why we never get a community that will have fun together or why FP is such a mess.
FP aint a competitive tournament, it is supposed to be fun for all of us and i surely would not have fun getting rolled by comp teams using full meta or overall just the top mechs all time. basically why FP is dead.
now you might bring up the typical *but when we meet another top unit we need the best mechs to beat em" phrase but seriously, you dont want to be bored then dont make it boring for yourself.
you, the comp guys, should be bloody good enough to still win even playing with bad mechs against the casuals. otherwise you simply are NOT AS GOOD as you think you are.

its just up to you comp guys to settle for it.


that is in no way directed or a blame to RJF, more a observation as a whole on what is wrong especially from the casual side of game to the comp side of this game.


it leds to the conclusion that most of the *skill* comes from the mechs. just the best and easiest to play will be used.

i havent touched competitive mode at all since my aiming skills are complete garbage so not knowing whats going there but i kinda find it funny that the hardest thing you can do (try to play as you would have to do as per lore, jeez thats rough!) gets dismissed because its boring (i would say its bloody challenging to be as good as in the free-use tournament on that mode).


im kinda sad how this game developed from the closed beta, where a 100t atlas was a true monster and a light wasnt as easy to play as now.


(i think, while writing this, the meaning of what i wanted to say got lost in the tired remains of my head. lol. dont want to offend anybody or attack RJF if that accidentally happened in the process of writing, nothing but respect to them)

#18 Y E O N N E

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 09:19 PM

View PostAlienized, on 12 October 2018 - 03:14 PM, said:

ironically the so called *best* and *competitive* players are shy of using bad mechs with more challenging loadouts to master and keep on rolling the meta (or the *easiest to play and perform well with*) stuff even in pub solo and whatever.
thats just on top of the team abusing playstyle in solo to rack up their own dmg/kill/whatever stuff.
thats a huge conflict and why we never get a community that will have fun together or why FP is such a mess.


That is not how it works.

They are not shy, they are bored. Being stuck with stock 'Mechs creates even more predictability than without. The lack of speed and lower heat management precludes certain strategies from ever working, because you can't cross even modestly open areas without getting hosed (i.e. The center crater on Caustic is an absolute murder zone in stock because you can't cross it fast enough and the LRMs just destroy you without the cover; in non-stock, you can quickly dash across to surprise the enemy bring other weapons into play). There's just no variety.

As for meta, the meta is not as cut and dry as you think it is; it changes based on map and comfort level. And if the enemy is bringing their own meta, then you are going to get a more challenging match. Bringing meta is not "ez mode" and it's not a crutch.

#19 Laser Kiwi

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 11:42 PM

I was all for the stock thing from a spectator point of view in the hope it would be 'better', it wasn't. If you're all going to be here next year it will go back. Either way it wasn't boring, thousands of people watch DOTA2, that's boring.

And hey spectators matter, that's my role here, Rangers had 3 teams and i didn't bother joining any of them.

Oh and hats off to RJF, I watched the matches, though they were "slow paced" due to the mechs available, you still have to respect the skills of the playoff teams and the close call on changing the status quo.

#20 Alienized

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 02:23 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 12 October 2018 - 09:19 PM, said:


That is not how it works.

They are not shy, they are bored. Being stuck with stock 'Mechs creates even more predictability than without. The lack of speed and lower heat management precludes certain strategies from ever working, because you can't cross even modestly open areas without getting hosed (i.e. The center crater on Caustic is an absolute murder zone in stock because you can't cross it fast enough and the LRMs just destroy you without the cover; in non-stock, you can quickly dash across to surprise the enemy bring other weapons into play). There's just no variety.

As for meta, the meta is not as cut and dry as you think it is; it changes based on map and comfort level. And if the enemy is bringing their own meta, then you are going to get a more challenging match. Bringing meta is not "ez mode" and it's not a crutch.


Yeonne i can totally understand you but.......

question: would a commander on the real field ever try to move through such a territory if he could not choose his mechs? i doubt that and for most of the part we are abandoning a big part of each map where no one ever fights. the bayou in the middle north on forest colony for example. i dragged a battle there once and it was a bloody awesome mess haha.

THAT should be the challenge for the comp guys imho. we are doing things that no one ever would do on a field because it would be suicide. and camping is NOT a solution either! :P

trust me i remember how horrible it was to fight a stock atlas with a stock dragon in the closed beta, or driving a jenner. it was HARD. it was a CHALLENGE. but you cant expect to not get bored if you dont challenge yourself constantly with unusual things.
i for example switch mechs nearly every battle, some loadouts would be deemed unusable (and most of them got laughed at tbh :D it's just how to use it)
stock mode shouldnt be about piloting skills, doing the same ol same ol tactics. its purely about maneuvering and tactics. trying something different, play different, think different.

(he yes, i always dream about playing this game on bigger maps wth more units/mechs per side where you have to use what is given, like it would be for a commander in reality. no modification, clan vs clan and is vs is simple for balance purposes.
there you can really determine the best of the best. i know i know, its a unrealistic dream but dammit, leave me my dreams D: )


also i play this game long enough to know about meta and all, im still baffled that its kinda obvious what mechs will be used most of the time. i played my victor for so long, before it got buffed like it is now and brawled the heck out of everyone.
max JJ's and a XL 350. the loadout still didnt change, it always been a challenge to play it well to not be a burden but it was exciting (and still is).
now, when do YOU see a highlander or a victor on the field? the only victors i see are dual heavy gauss and 3 lbx/ac10's. meta. highlanders? lol. i love em but you dont see them played from top players (which im not, i just count on players that dont know how to fight my loadouts lol.)
some examples: nighstar with 2 uac5, 3 light ppc's, 2 er med lasers.
highlander with uac20, snub nose ppc'S and rocket launchers. (d'oh....heat! they still struggle from engine cap....)
zeus with heavy ppc's + mrm40.

you see where im goin (i hope)

now take a look at pub/group queue.
they are fully stuck on deathstrikes, scorchs, annihilators and fafnirs, sleipnirs not to forget on assaults.
piranhas cheetahs on lights etc etc.
How are you supposed to stay interested seeing all the same mechs on the field all time?
the VARIETY keeps it interesting. that is purely on the players to KEEP it interesting, some mechs arent good but you still can play em well enough overall. alot of players just dont give em a try or try to make em work because of what? scared of not beeing able to fight dual hgauss mechs? ^^
(im just speaking group/solo queue here btw)

i dont agree with many things PGI did or does BUT we as a community are not free of blame, PGI has to REACT to how the game is played. so what can we as players do different?





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