78 replies to this topic

[Funky Bacon]

Jeffrey Dahmer The People Nommer, on 19 October 2018 - 01:52 PM, said:

Not sure what magic people see in the 3xHPPC build, because I built it in Smurfy and immediately swapped the HPPCs for ERPPCs, switched to a 300STD engine with 4 more DHS. Twice the max effective range, no min range, lower heat spike and faster dissipation for 15 less pts of dmg... Fair trade, considering you won't be hamstrung by the heat or min range if you have to defend yourself from a face hugger. Is it ubermech? No. It's fun to plink the clan Gauss/ac2 boat snipers on frozen city from across the ravine without shutting down after the 2nd shot.

wait wait wait... what's this about switching to a STD-300? You never use anything other than a STD engine in an Awesome unless you're using a 9M or PB. Light or XL engines means too many heatsinks in the arms or not enough slots to use the tonnage. Plus it's already slow enough without the debuff from losing a side torso with a Light Engine.

16 heatsinks are plenty for the 8Q HPPC build, and 18 for the ER-PPC with a TC7 for that sweet 3000+ m/s velocity. Add light ferro if you desperately need a 17th heatsink for the HPPC build but you don't really need it.

Edited by Funky Bacon, 20 October 2018 - 03:18 AM.

[Tesunie]

dante245, on 20 October 2018 - 03:02 AM, said:

accept it was PGI who put the quirk in, and said it was there to stay? not sure how you all got so south with this. also, they are never removing it, cause they are already making plans to add in MORE. and yes, its not competitive, but DAM its awesome.

The issue here is not about the quirks removal, but it being changed to "what it was intended to effect/do". The quirk was only suppose to effect normal IS PPCs, not all PPCs. So, it very well may likely change back to only effecting normal PPCs, and not HPPCs, ERPPCs, Snubnosed PPCs or Lt PPCs (what it's doing now).

Personally, I think it feels good on the Awesome to use PPCs in sets of three, even HPPCs. It doesn't feel game breaking to me, and it's not exactly "meta" at the moment and I suspect it wont become a meta either.

[DrxAbstract]

Funky Bacon, on 20 October 2018 - 03:14 AM, said:

wait wait wait... what's this about switching to a STD-300? You never use anything other than a STD engine in an Awesome unless you're using a 9M or PB. Light or XL engines means too many heatsinks in the arms or not enough slots to use the tonnage. Plus it's already slow enough without the debuff from losing a side torso with a Light Engine.

16 heatsinks are plenty for the 8Q HPPC build, and 18 for the ER-PPC with a TC7 for that sweet 3000+ m/s velocity. Add light ferro if you desperately need a 17th heatsink for the HPPC build but you don't really need it.

First and foremost: I can use what ever engine type I desire for my builds.

Secondly, worrying about side torso loss in a PPC Awesome is a moot point because 1/3rd-2/3rd your weapons goes with it, effectively neutering your combat effectiveness. If you want to skimp on heat efficiency, and by extension inhibit your ability to fight when pressed, for the sake of using up all tonnage/slots or a TC go for it. I prefer having the extra dissipation, as it has proven far more useful abroad than the subjective benefits of a TC.

[Shifty McSwift]

6 snubs is pretty fun, but yeah, its a bit weird and quite silly.

Also firing 3 snubs is about 35 heat, but firing 4 is about 75, not sure if that is normal heat spiking for over-firing or if it accumulating extra thinking you over-fired 2 instead of 1.

[Kubernetes]

45 PPFLD is 45 PPFLD. It's a quality all its own. A lot of laser vomit now is 50dmg or less, so landing 45 with HPPCs is nasty.

[Roughneck45]

It's all I've been playing since the patch. Feels great TBH. That 45 pinpoint is nice. I use 4 ml's for backup and I've been carrying most games.

It's not going usurp any of the top performing assaults, and it is vulnerable up close, but it's nice to have another PPC boat for QP other than the Warhawk.

Honestly I'd love to see more HSL quirks on mechs that are pretty meh.

[Y E O N N E]

Kubernetes, on 21 October 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

45 PPFLD is 45 PPFLD. It's a quality all its own. A lot of laser vomit now is 50dmg or less, so landing 45 with HPPCs is nasty.

Most laser vomit for Heavies on up is still more than 50...which is really no change from the status quo. It's just that Hellbringers are only barely included in that group, now, but people haven't yet shifted back to EBJs.

[LordBraxton]

The awesome is more fragile than most medium mechs due to its massive hitboxes and un-quirked 8p ton armor

[Kubernetes]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 October 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

Most laser vomit for Heavies on up is still more than 50...which is really no change from the status quo. It's just that Hellbringers are only barely included in that group, now, but people haven't yet shifted back to EBJs.

I've downsized a lot of builds, on Clan side to LPLs instead of ERLL or HLL, and IS for stuff like 4 LPL. To some extent I feel like before the patch supersized alphas were the only choice for lasers: dissipation was never going to match output, so why even bother trying for dps? But now? Now you can have decent dps with lasers. And honestly I hate that "shoot once every 10 seconds and hide" style. I much prefer low duration pulse lasers and smaller alphas, and better sustainability if I get pushed. My favorite Ebon Jag now only runs 2 LPL and 4 MPL. On the IS side I'm running a Grasshopper 5H with 3 LPL and 2 MPL or Whammy 6D with 4 LPL.

[El Bandito]

Shifty McSwift, on 20 October 2018 - 11:22 AM, said:

6 snubs is pretty fun, but yeah, its a bit weird and quite silly.

Also firing 3 snubs is about 35 heat, but firing 4 is about 75, not sure if that is normal heat spiking for over-firing or if it accumulating extra thinking you over-fired 2 instead of 1.

Even firing 5 Snub PPCs 3+2 gets hot very fast. 6 is simply not optimal.

[Bud Crue]

dante245, on 20 October 2018 - 03:02 AM, said:

accept it was PGI who put the quirk in, and said it was there to stay? not sure how you all got so south with this. also, they are never removing it, cause they are already making plans to add in MORE. and yes, its not competitive, but DAM its awesome.

No.

Chris said:
https://out.reddit.c...name=reddit.com

He clearly states that the quirk is NOT working as designed. But that they are willing to let it say and monitor it. Their secret internal factors will determine if it stays. But my original point was that the HPPC quirk, regardless of how much we like it, is in direct contrast to Chris’s repeated mantra of the last year and a half that a quirk which defines a mech into a singular role is a barrier to entry and should be removed. This quirk make the 3HPPC build thee best build on the 8Q. No if’s ands or buts. Thus, the optimal build is no longer about player choice but is defined by the quirk. Chris has repeatedly stated that such things should be avoided. Other GH based quirks may be considered and provided to other mechs, but if their presence forces a single optimized build onto the player then that quirk will not last IF Chris is consistent with his past views.

So yeah, we may love the quirk, but don’t get used to it. His words both in the tweet above and over the past year and a half make it pretty clear that this won’t last (unless Chris has a change of heart and does a complete 180 and let niche mechs have an optimal niche build defined by the quirks he gives them).

Edited by Bud Crue, 23 October 2018 - 03:47 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Kubernetes, on 22 October 2018 - 10:42 PM, said:

I've downsized a lot of builds, on Clan side to LPLs instead of ERLL or HLL, and IS for stuff like 4 LPL. To some extent I feel like before the patch supersized alphas were the only choice for lasers: dissipation was never going to match output, so why even bother trying for dps? But now? Now you can have decent dps with lasers. And honestly I hate that "shoot once every 10 seconds and hide" style. I much prefer low duration pulse lasers and smaller alphas, and better sustainability if I get pushed. My favorite Ebon Jag now only runs 2 LPL and 4 MPL. On the IS side I'm running a Grasshopper 5H with 3 LPL and 2 MPL or Whammy 6D with 4 LPL.

You always had the option to run fewer guns like that and keep the pressure up; the dissipation is much higher now, sure, but the time needed for such a pressure build to work was always shorter than the time it too to cap yourself on heat.

To wit, your EBJ is still a 50-point build. You will also get better heat efficiency out of it (at the expense of some flexibility) by swapping over to 1x cLPL and 6x cMPL, and that is a build that has been used in FP by some Clan players for a long time now because it has always been able to pressure with good DPS. Pre-patch, a build like that could fire back to back 3-4 times and it only took 7 seconds to fully neutralize the heat from a single blast.

The switch back to cLPL is because HLL do not have the damage density and are too hot to alpha with enough ERMed to get a favorable trade against an IS volley. The cLPL are colder and punchier now. Whether you choose to pair with cMPL or cERML is based on how you want to play, but the latter combos are still punching up to 63 points without tripping the shutdown, a mere 3-point delta from before the patch attributable entirely to the damage nerf. And they do so with more DPS than before.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Bud Crue, on 23 October 2018 - 03:45 AM, said:

No.

Chris said:
https://out.reddit.c...name=reddit.com

He clearly states that the quirk is NOT working as designed. But that they are willing to let it say and monitor it. Their secret internal factors will determine if it stays. But my original point was that the HPPC quirk, regardless of how much we like it, is in direct contrast to Chris’s repeated mantra of the last year and a half that a quirk which defines a mech into a singular role is a barrier to entry and should be removed. This quirk make the 3HPPC build thee best build on the 8Q. No if’s ands or buts. Thus, the optimal build is no longer about player choice but is defined by the quirk. Chris has repeatedly stated that such things should be avoided. Other GH based quirks may be considered and provided to other mechs, but if their presence forces a single optimized build onto the player then that quirk will not last IF Chris is consistent with his past views.

So yeah, we may love the quirk, but don’t get used to it. His words both in the tweet above and over the past year and a half make it pretty clear that this won’t last (unless Chris has a change of heart and does a complete 180 and let niche mechs have an optimal niche build defined by the quirks he gives them).

I just don't get it. it not that this mech is gamebreaking in this form. far from it.
I'm the first to say that I'm a _really_ bad ppc-shot, but even in a turkey-shoot scenario using this thing where even I hit consistently - I can do _better_ with a lot of mechs, most of them are lighter (important for fw).

so.. it's a fun build, and not more. this quirk just made it at least playable.

I can totally see why Chris doesn't want to 'define' a mech by a quirk into -1- role, but: it is better it has 1 role instead of 0 (state before the quirk). and it is totally in fluff/background/lore that it has, which is important to a lot of us.
so.. I'm all for a defining quirk on a really bad chassis, even more if it sticks to lore.

imho, 'classic' mechs with classic loadouts should recieve something to make those desirable. example: griffin if equipped with ppc+lurm. or MASSIVE quirks for ppcs, arm-mounted only, on hellbringers, warhammers or marauders. we -never- see these things, and it would be nice to have some more 'battletech' in mwo.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 23 October 2018 - 06:13 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Tesunie, on 20 October 2018 - 09:04 AM, said:

The issue here is not about the quirks removal, but it being changed to "what it was intended to effect/do". The quirk was only suppose to effect normal IS PPCs, not all PPCs. So, it very well may likely change back to only effecting normal PPCs, and not HPPCs, ERPPCs, Snubnosed PPCs or Lt PPCs (what it's doing now).

Personally, I think it feels good on the Awesome to use PPCs in sets of three, even HPPCs. It doesn't feel game breaking to me, and it's not exactly "meta" at the moment and I suspect it wont become a meta either.

I totally agree with you. That particular quirk is so suitable for an Awesome. I'd be careful, though, to give it to other overperforming mechs

[Bud Crue]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 23 October 2018 - 06:11 AM, said:

I can totally see why Chris doesn't want to 'define' a mech by a quirk into -1- role, but: it is better it has 1 role instead of 0 (state before the quirk).

Yes.
Let’s hope that after a year and a half he finally agrees with this. A role...any role...is better than no role. So many variants are on the shelf because some other variant can do anything they can do but better. Give these shelf sitters a reason to be played, even if it is in a singular quirk defined role.

That being said, we need to be careful what we wish for.

On the one hand he gave the Spider 5V an utterly limited, but totally singular non combat role (80% countdown acceleration quirk), but on the other hand he is allowing the 8Q to have this 3 HPPC role (for as long as it lasts). Alas, while I’d prefer a damage producing role since that how the game is dominately scored, and that’s how mechs ar leveled, etc. (i.e. I’d prefer the giga range quirk of old (or something similar) on the 5V even if it forces the player into the old long range ERLL harraser role of old, rather than the 80% countdown quirk Chris has provided), but yeah I’ll settle for a crap mech that is good at something even if that something is kinda lame and limiting (like the 5V).

[Eisenhorne]

Bud Crue, on 23 October 2018 - 07:19 AM, said:

Yes.
Let’s hope that after a year and a half he finally agrees with this. A role...any role...is better than no role. So many variants are on the shelf because some other variant can do anything they can do but better. Give these shelf sitters a reason to be played, even if it is in a singular quirk defined role.

That being said, we need to be careful what we wish for.

On the one hand he gave the Spider 5V an utterly limited, but totally singular non combat role (80% countdown acceleration quirk), but on the other hand he is allowing the 8Q to have this 3 HPPC role (for as long as it lasts). Alas, while I’d prefer a damage producing role since that how the game is dominately scored, and that’s how mechs ar leveled, etc. (i.e. I’d prefer the giga range quirk of old (or something similar) on the 5V even if it forces the player into the old long range ERLL harraser role of old, rather than the 80% countdown quirk Chris has provided), but yeah I’ll settle for a crap mech that is good at something even if that something is kinda lame and limiting (like the 5V).

Non-combat roles are fine for lights. Some, like the RVN-3L, are just excellent at NARCing / Scouting. Apparently the SDR-5V is now excellent at capping points. Fine, maybe make some mech a TAG mech, or give one UAV quirks, or something. Give them quirks to make them unique and the "best" at some niche, and people will use them in FP, even if infrequently.

[Tesunie]

Bud Crue, on 23 October 2018 - 03:45 AM, said:

No.

Chris said:
https://out.reddit.c...name=reddit.com

He clearly states that the quirk is NOT working as designed. But that they are willing to let it say and monitor it. Their secret internal factors will determine if it stays. But my original point was that the HPPC quirk, regardless of how much we like it, is in direct contrast to Chris’s repeated mantra of the last year and a half that a quirk which defines a mech into a singular role is a barrier to entry and should be removed. This quirk make the 3HPPC build thee best build on the 8Q. No if’s ands or buts. Thus, the optimal build is no longer about player choice but is defined by the quirk. Chris has repeatedly stated that such things should be avoided. Other GH based quirks may be considered and provided to other mechs, but if their presence forces a single optimized build onto the player then that quirk will not last IF Chris is consistent with his past views.

So yeah, we may love the quirk, but don’t get used to it. His words both in the tweet above and over the past year and a half make it pretty clear that this won’t last (unless Chris has a change of heart and does a complete 180 and let niche mechs have an optimal niche build defined by the quirks he gives them).

Thing is, if they revert it to the intended normal PPC only, that would be even more restricting to the mech's building options than how it is right now. As it stands currently in the game, the Awesome is good with any triple PPC build (or quad LPPC). Sure the HPPC has better PPFLD, but I'm sure there would be a standing reason to use other PPCs, such as ERPPCs for more range and no minimum, or Snubnosed (possibly mixed with some LPL or something?) for more of a close range build.

Of course, seen as it isn't working "as intended", I wouldn't blame PGI if they did change it to it's intended effect, as would be their right to fix it. I do hope that they keep it though, as it's really making the 8Q something fun and flavorful. The 9M still isn't technically out performed, mostly because the 9M also has access to missile slots.

[Weeny Machine]

Eisenhorne, on 23 October 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

Non-combat roles are fine for lights. Some, like the RVN-3L, are just excellent at NARCing / Scouting. Apparently the SDR-5V is now excellent at capping points. Fine, maybe make some mech a TAG mech, or give one UAV quirks, or something. Give them quirks to make them unique and the "best" at some niche, and people will use them in FP, even if infrequently.

Sure, but let's be honest, would you pilot a Spider 5V with such a narrowly defined role? I mean what happens if Skirmish comes up?

[Eisenhorne]

Bush Hopper, on 23 October 2018 - 07:43 AM, said:

Sure, but let's be honest, would you pilot a Spider 5V with such a narrowly defined role? I mean what happens if Skirmish comes up?

I was speaking mostly in a FP / Comp context. No, you wouldn't bring them to quick play. They'd have a use though, even if not in quick play game mode.