21 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

Not too recently I found out that ICE equipped vehicles and mechs don't generate heat when firing weapons. I had always assumed it was the weapons themselves that generated the heat. So is the heat only due to the energy draw causing the fusion engine to get hotter ? Is that how it would work in reality? And if so. How can a combustion engine deliver enough power to fire PPCs? Seems like given the heat, PPCs demand a lot of power.

[McGoat]

It's all answered here: https://wiki.mwomerc....php?title=Heat

Wait, lol.

[MeiSooHaityu]

MechaBattler, on 23 October 2018 - 10:57 AM, said:

Not too recently I found out that ICE equipped vehicles and mechs don't generate heat when firing weapons. I had always assumed it was the weapons themselves that generated the heat. So is the heat only due to the energy draw causing the fusion engine to get hotter ? Is that how it would work in reality? And if so. How can a combustion engine deliver enough power to fire PPCs? Seems like given the heat, PPCs demand a lot of power.

Actually... An ICE engine does not power PPCs (or any energy weapons for that matter) without Power Amplifiers (what ever those are). Basically an ICE doesn't normally produce enough power to drive the more energy hungry weapons. For that, a Fusion engine is needed.

http://www.sarna.net...mbustion_Engine

"For all intents and purposes identical to a modern internal combustion engine, the I.C.E. in BattleTech is used mainly for conventional vehicles and IndustrialMechs. Its power output is less than a fusion engine of similar mass, meaning an I.C.E. needs to be heavier in order to have the same engine rating of a fusion engine. In fact, it has the greatest weight-to-rating ratio of all the engines available in the TechManual. Internal combustion engines cannot power energy weapons without power amplifiers, unlike fusion engines." - Sarna.net: Internal Combustion Engine


Now, when you mention PPCs, you might be thinking of the Schrek (3 PPCs), but the Schrek actually has a Fusion Engine...

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Schrek

"The Schrek's reputation also suffered due to the decline of technical knowledge during the Succession Wars era, its use of increasingly rare Fusion Engine to power its weapons array drove up the costs to buy and maintain the vehicle, pricing it outside the range of all but the most elite units until after the War of 3039." - Sarna.net: Schrek


Now, why something like the Schrek doesn't overheat from firing PPCs like a mech would, Sarna just states this...


"Developed by Aldis in 2813 to overcome the heat issues which hampered the effectiveness of their immensely popular Demolisher tank, the company took an entirely different tack, replacing the Demolisher's mammoth autocannons with a trio of PPCs and enough Heat Sinks to fire them continuously." - Sarna.net: Schrek


As for how heat plays a part in ICE vehicles, I am not sure. The thing is, vehicles can still be pretty heavy tonnage wise, and maybe the ICE engines don't weigh as much as a Fusion Engine. Vehicles might seem like they can fire almost continuously because they might just have the heat sinks to make it possible. Like the quote above says, the Demolisher did seem to have heat issues and it was an ICE powered vehicle. It's hard to say.

Anyway, I hope this helps a bit regardless.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 23 October 2018 - 11:47 AM.

[Bombast]

I wonder where you got this information. To the best of my knowledge, I.C.E. equipped units do generate weapon heat. What they don't generate is movement heat.

MeiSooHaityu, on 23 October 2018 - 11:32 AM, said:

As for how heat plays a part in ICE vehicles, I am not sure. The thing is, vehicles can still be pretty heavy tonnage wise, and maybe the ICE engines don't weigh as much as a Fusion Engine.

I.C.E. engines have the worst weight-to-rating ratio of any engine, worse than even Fission or Compact engines.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bombast, on 23 October 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

I.C.E. engines have the worst weight-to-rating ratio of any engine, worse than even Fission or Compact engines.

Yeah, maybe a wording snafu more so on my part. I was thinking that lighter engine than desirable due to the added weight of the ICE engine vs Fusion Engine. Essentially you might have wanted a 300 engine, but had to deal with a 220 because of the weight of the ICE.

I didn't communicate that very well.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 23 October 2018 - 11:45 AM.

[MechaBattler]

So then the heat is primarily from the weapons themselves. Okay. Someone was claiming that on the Paradox Battletech forums. Guess that was a bit of misinformation. I too am curious what constitutes a power amplifier. Perhaps it's a scaled up alternator.

[Bombast]

MechaBattler, on 23 October 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

So then the heat is primarily from the weapons themselves. Okay. Someone was claiming that on the Paradox Battletech forums. Guess that was a bit of misinformation. I too am curious what constitutes a power amplifier. Perhaps it's a scaled up alternator.

Sarna.net said:

Power Amplifiers are banks of capacitors installed into Combat Vehicles, Support Vehicles or Conventional Fighters which are powered by 'conventional' sources such as Internal Combustion Engines or Fuel Cells instead of Fission or Fusion Engines. These amplifiers, constantly recharged by the operation of the vehicle's engines, allow the use of Lasers or other energy weapons by providing the necessary power. Power Amplifiers typically add around 10 percent to the overall mass of such weapons, though they do not increase the weapons' bulk.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Here is Sarna's definition...

http://www.sarna.net...Power_Amplifier

"Power Amplifiers are banks of capacitors installed into Combat Vehicles, Support Vehicles or Conventional Fighters which are powered by 'conventional' sources such as Internal Combustion Engines or Fuel Cells instead of Fission or Fusion Engines. These amplifiers, constantly recharged by the operation of the vehicle's engines, allow the use of Lasers or other energy weapons by providing the necessary power. Power Amplifiers typically add around 10 percent to the overall mass of such weapons, though they do not increase the weapons' bulk." - Sarna.net: Power Amplifier

[MechaBattler]

So is it possible to deplete the capacitors during battle if the engine can't keep up? Doesn't seem like engine size plays a role in output.

[Bombast]

MechaBattler, on 23 October 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

So is it possible to deplete the capacitors during battle if the engine can't keep up? Doesn't seem like engine size plays a role in output.

The capacitors are constantly filled, and are of sufficient size to keep up with weapon discharge. They never deplete.

[Koniving]

MechaBattler, on 23 October 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

So is it possible to deplete the capacitors during battle if the engine can't keep up? Doesn't seem like engine size plays a role in output.

In terms of tabletop you can't deplete them since you use a weapon for one rating per 10 seconds. Plenty of time to recharge them akin to the fusion engines which do the same.

If you were using them at mwo's firing rate... Yes you would deplete them.

Solaris 7 (the early 90s edition) has the best example of real time firing rates. PPCs cannot be fired faster than 3 turns (7.5 seconds after the last time fired (which is another 2.5 seconds. That's anywhere from 7.5 to 10 seconds really). Capacitor or fusion engjne.

That's not even factoring in the field inhibitor slowing down the time between triggering the prepare to fire and fire (charge up) which is the source of the 90 meter min range accuracy penalty. (You can hit one hex away just fine. There's just a penalty.)

Written during a break will follow up around 11 est for more. In comparison delays on salvos of other weapon's are generally smaller with most being 0 turns to wait (use again immediately on next turn or 2.5 seconds between salvos) up to 3 turns to wait after use (7.5 seconds after so basically 10 seconds). Will have to look but I believe ER PPC has a longer wait time.

This said even with an ice engine if you use energy weapon's I believe you are required to have heatsinks. Ballistic weapons and missiles do not (with ICE). I need to double check later but I am fairly certain of this.

Edited by Koniving, 23 October 2018 - 04:13 PM.

[Koniving]

Pain to dig it up on the phone. But for depleting the capacitors for an ICE. Can't fire fast enough to do so. But.... That heat... There's no reason to run a PPC with ice. The added weight of the engine the capacitor weight and if I am not mistaken still need heatsinks for non-ammo weapons. (Exception being chemical lasers but they have ammo...)

The finite fuel reserve every time you shoot it costs fuel.

But as for heat... Tomorrow I will run some tests in megamek.

(Also I stand corrected. 3 turns before you are allowed to use it again. 2.5 use... 2.5 2.5 2.5 2.5 use. So 10 up to 12.5 seconds between PPC firings at the fastest rate. But given that PPC is one of the few front loaded weapons in fluff... The immense power blasts off limbs of lighter mechs in single shots. Blasts through fortified walls and gates easily. Fries armored vehicles pretty well. Can set 30 meters of sand on fire. (Don't ask me how that works I just did it..also made glass.)

Looking it up. Power amplifiers weigh 10% of the weapon's weight and one must be added for every instance of an energy weapon. (Chemical lasers excluded). Overall weight of amplifiers is then rounded to nearest half ton. Also Gauss Rifles require a power amplifier it seems.

Edited by Koniving, 23 October 2018 - 08:45 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

The mentioned Demolisher has lore wise heatproblems simple because they use binary propellant- no casing=no heatsink.

Why ACs and Missiles on tanks don't generate heat but on Mechs? Maybe to give those fragile lightly armed ice vehicles a single advantage. Because TT is imho tcombined arms only because you have all kind of troops available. But other than costs and the later rules there is no reason to use infantry or tanks (advanced hitzones and anti-infantry weapon rules)

However heatsinks = energy.
When you do some calculating you could see or modify the heat-dissipation/threshold system very simple into an energy-grid system
You don't need both.

While it's not in the lore an explanation for heat of BT ACs vs Vehicle ACs might be the bore size and the use of an loader or auto loader instead of a clip

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 October 2018 - 09:03 PM.

[Koniving]

One thing I've noticed, is that in general, there are all kinds of hints of things that happen in the BT lore...that just doesn't take root in the tabletop due to its summary of time in 10 second chunks. For example an AC/20 in tabletop fires once (or split fires to do 10 and 10). With certain rules you can fire twice (and split fire to do 20 and 20) at high risk. But... in fluff, they shoot a lot of shells and far more often than once or twice per 10 seconds. The typical M1Abrams can fire roughly every 4 seconds. Autocannons fire significantly faster, with the 120mm (same caliber as the M1 Abrams, though the shells are different) being "Painfully slow" at 3-4 rounds in a second.

Another good example is machine guns. "Machine guns generate zero heat." In what reality? Thing is in tabletop it doesn't because 10 seconds worth of cooling makes the insignificant amount of heat the MGs create (compared to everything else) not even worth tracking. But then you take the fluff... Lets look at the Goliath.
Quad mech. Ugly as ****. Machine guns are known for being amazingly accurate....overheating...and jamming.

With quirks you can reflect this of course. But the fluff was written before quirks even existed, in a time where FASA thought quad mechs would become all the rage....and then they didn't. However this is just one of many, many, many references to machine guns overheating. It overheated and so they stop shooting, or they fire in spurts to prevent overheating or else the barrel could melt. Issues like that, much like real life. And under a specific ruleset there's "Burst Fire Machine Guns", in which you can use it 3 times in a regular tabletop turn, for up to 6 damage with a standard MG in 2 damage chunks, each with its own hit roll. The first has no heat, the second has 1 heat, and the third gives 1 heat. So now you have twice as much heat as an AC/2 or an AC/5.

Now why does this matter? Because it implies that weapons generate their own heat, and can handle their own heat if it isn't excessive. Weapons in real life can air cool if allowed to rest. In fact many vehicles use this principle in real life. Some have additional cooling methods, but in general air cooling is a thing. Unlike mechs where dynamic engagements are key, vehicles are meant to engage single targets at a time whenever possible, they don't have to forcefully cool down as much because in general they would disengage, reposition, engage, and cool on their own. Energy weapons are too hot for this, of course.

Then again thinking on it... I had an ICE engine mech with a single flamer thrower... and a single heatsink. I melted that heatsink and my mech soon became a walking time bomb until the pilot inside died. (Part of the issue was I took a hit to the engine, too, I couldn't cool with the heatsink lost and after the hit with the engine, the heat kept building at 5 units per turn.)

[Koniving]

Grr... My Megamek was moved to the hard drive that died. Ah man, that campaign... my custom mechs...

I have the Loader King and a couple of my 10 to 30 ton commercial armor mechs still on my phone's Mech Factory. Oh and a couple of my custom Scorpions. Man... I made some custom artillery units.

Installed the latest edition. I don't have every single rule enabled just the default but lets see what happens (will go through that lengthy process tomorrow).

Vehicles used:
AC/2 carrier
Bulldog
Condor Heavy Hover - Flamer variant
Condor Heavy Hover - Liao (all lasers)

All four ICE engines

Versus:
An army of air cars with no weapons.

And holy **** air cars really get around the map.

So first move, Everyone shoots everything.
Btw Air Cars are so fast they're about impossible to hit.

Spoiler

Weapon Attack Phase
-------------------

Weapons fire for AC/2 Carrier (Standard) (Koniving)
AC/2 at Air Car (Standard) #8 (Princess); needs 12, rolls 9 : misses


AC/2 at Air Car (Standard) #8 (Princess); needs 12, rolls 6 : misses


AC/2 at Air Car (Standard) #8 (Princess); needs 12, rolls 8 : misses


AC/2 at Air Car (Standard) #8 (Princess); needs 12, rolls 2 : misses


AC/2 at Air Car (Standard) #8 (Princess); needs 12, rolls 3 : misses


Weapons fire for Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard) (Koniving)
Machine Gun at Air Car (Standard) #3 (Princess); needs 11, rolls 8 : misses

SRM 4 at Air Car (Standard) #3 (Princess); needs 9, rolls 11 : 3 missile(s) hit.

Air Car (Standard) #3 (Princess) takes 2 damage to FR.
6 Armor remaining.

Air Car (Standard) #3 (Princess) takes 2 damage to FR.
4 Armor remaining.

Air Car (Standard) #3 (Princess) takes 2 damage to LS.
6 Armor remaining.
Chance for motive system damage. Roll is 14; (w/ +3 bonus)
Major damage, vehicle immobile.


SRM 4 at Air Car (Standard) #3 (Princess); needs 9, rolls 6 : misses


Large Laser at Air Car (Standard) #3 (Princess); needs 9, rolls 10 : hits FR
Air Car (Standard) #3 (Princess) takes 8 damage to FR.
Armor destroyed.
Critical hit on FR. Roll is 8; Sensors Hit!
SECTION DESTROYED.
*** Air Car (Standard) #3 (Princess) DESTROYED by damage! ***
Critical hit on FR. Roll is 6; Driver injured!


Weapons fire for Condor Heavy Hover Tank (Flamer) (Koniving)
Medium Laser at Air Car (Standard) #4 (Princess); needs 9, rolls 6 : misses


Medium Laser at Air Car (Standard) #4 (Princess); needs 9, rolls 2 : misses


Medium Laser at Air Car (Standard) #4 (Princess); needs 9, rolls 5 : misses


Machine Gun at Air Car (Standard) #4 (Princess); needs 13, rolls 7 : misses

Machine Gun at Air Car (Standard) #4 (Princess); needs 13, rolls 10 : misses

Weapons fire for Condor Heavy Hover Tank (Liao) (Koniving)
Medium Laser at Air Car (Standard) #10 (Princess); needs 11, rolls 6 : misses


Medium Laser at Air Car (Standard) #10 (Princess); needs 11, rolls 8 : misses


Medium Laser at Air Car (Standard) #10 (Princess); needs 11, rolls 10 : misses


Medium Laser at Air Car (Standard) #10 (Princess); needs 11, rolls 3 : misses

And the heat...

Heat phase is completely blank. Guess energy weapons with power amplifiers don't need heatsinks.

[/spoiler]
Come to think about it, the Nin Kei (my "ICE" mech mentioned in my last post) with the Vehicle Flamer had a Fuel Cell engine not an ICE. (Vehicle flamers are ammo based and the idea was to avoid it consuming the mech's fuel.).

So. Heat on ICE engines -- not factored at all. The heat's kept to the weapons and has no effect on the vehicle.

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 24 October 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

So. Heat on ICE engines -- not factored at all. The heat's kept to the weapons and has no effect on the vehicle.

This is a strange conclusion

A Vehicle any vehicle no matter if it used ICE, Fission, Fusion or a Large XXL need to be heat neutral if not mentioned otherwise ballistic and missile weapons don't count to that limit.
Every other weapon need hestsinks.
So to mount 1 Medium Laser on an ICE means you need 4.5tons.
1 for the laser 0.5 for the storage bank and 3 for the SHS.
You can't have DHS on a vehicle.

Why do you think the DI Morgan weights that much and needs a XL engine?
Because his 3 ERPPCs need 45 Heatsinks so minus the engine heatsinks we need additional 35tons.
You can swap a second ERPPC on a fusion driven vehicle with ease against a Gauss.
The mix is important. The Alacorn and the DIMorgan could both merge into a cheaper more reliable vehicle using 2 Gauss and 1 ERPPC

[Koniving]

For some reason... heat on the ICE vehicles never get a heat phase.

Tried a Schrek Fusion Engine PPC and ICE engine AC/5 models together. The fusion engine one gets a heat phase, the ICE engine one is never put into it, even if you change the AC/5s out with PPCs and power amplifiers, there's no heat phase for it. It doesn't count.

Put a fuel cell engine in, and it goes under the heat phase (and it promptly shut down as I only put the bare minimum heatsink...singular...into it).

But the ICE engine model never gets counted into the heat phase on Megamek. I don't know if its an issue, or if its just a fact of the rules. I'll have to look up heat and ICE engines, but since heatsinks aren't mandatory... it doesn't count.

There's a list of page numbers for the tech manual here under ICE Engine, so I'm gonna look at them as these are pages for the construction rules when applying ICE.

Starting with the first reference from Power Amplifiers, page 74 TechMan.

Quote

Power Amplifi ers: IndustrialMechs powered by ICE or Fuel Cell
engines may carry heavy energy weapons such as lasers and PPCs,
but to do so, they must also mount power amplifi ers in the same
manner as ICE-powered vehicles do (see p. 107). Power amplifi ers
weigh 10 percent of the weight of the energy weapons carried
(rounded up to the nearest half-ton), but take up no critical space
on the IndustrialMech’s Record Sheet.
Only ICE- and Fuel Cell-powered IndustrialMechs require power
amplifi ers. Fission- and fusion-powered IndustrialMechs do not
require this equipment for energy weapons.

This sorta explains why the weight seemed wonky when I was using a fuel cell engine.

That's for mechs.

Combat Vees: Page 107

Quote

Power Amplifi ers: Any ICE-powered Combat Vehicle may
carry heavy energy weapons such as lasers and PPCs, but to
do so, they must also mount power amplifi ers. Power amplifi
ers weigh 10 percent of the weight of the energy weapons
carried but take up no item slots on the Combat Vehicle’s
record sheet. Unlike most other rounding conventions for tonnage-
standard units, power amplifi ers round up to the nearest
0.1-ton increment, rather than the nearest 0.5-ton increment.
Fusion-powered Combat Vehicles do not require power
amplifi ers for energy weapons.
Trailer units drawing power from a Tractor’s power plant are
subject to the Power Amplifi er rules of the Tractor, and thus
require power amplifi ers if the Tractor is powered by an ICE.
Trailers with an independent engine are subject to the standard
rules for Power Amplifi ers.

It goes on to support vehicles, conventional fighters.

Military Combustion Engines, page 214.
"One of the most popular, inexpensive, tried-and-true of all engine technologies has been the internal combustion engine (ICE for short). It therefore comes as no surprise that while these power plants are impractical for Battlemech use thanks to their greater size, they have nonetheless made their presence known in the wider field of combat vehicles, including tanks, VTOLs and even conventional fighters. While ton for ton only half as efficient as a competing fusion engine (Ed- double weight and this tells me Fusion engines aren't unlimited power), and reliant on a constant supply of chemical fuels for long-term operation, modern combat ICEs -- or at least the parts to the maintain them, which technically differ little from those of civilian manufacture -- can be found on virtually every inhabited world in the Inner Sphere. Advances in technology have not permitted the development of extralight or light ICEs, but their ability to operate without heat spikes and still use heavy energy weapons-after the proper installation of power amplif iers of course-has made them a perfect match for conventional combat vehicles."

So...
Yeah, apparently. No excessive heat to the vehicle, its just to the weapons themselves as the engine doesn't have to spike heat to power the weapons, that's handled through the amplifiers and the engine just keeps a constant trickle of power to resupply them.

Considering all the disadvantages of them, I could see why they would do this from a balancing standpoint; Fusion engines get 10 free heatsinks regardless of the size of the engine, but an ICE gets nothing and weighs twice as much for the same speed. So the benefit of "Don't have to track heat" helps. Especially in a large scale battle with a lot of vehicles.

TechManual movement heat defined on Page 303:
"Movement Heat: Movement Heat is the amount of heat
generated when the ‘Mech moves in the most heat-intensive
manner possible (Running or Jumping at its maximum capacity)
during a single turn. ICE-powered IndustrialMechs do not
generate heat when moving and so always have a Movement
Heat Value of 0."

----

Since we're on the subject of ICE

Found this page: 244.
EXTENDED INDUSTRIALMECH FUEL TANKS
Introduced: Pre-spacefl ight
The concept of the extended fuel tank is hardly new, and their use on
’Mechs dates back to the days of pre-myomer, ICE-driven IndustrialMechs,
when those walking monstrosities chugged away entire liters of fossil fuels
every minute. Today’s far more effi cient engines and IndustrialMechs have
made great strides—no pun intended—since those days, but even so, the
standardized capacities of the various IndustrialMech engine types have
placed a cap on operational ranges for all non-fusion/non-fi ssion ’Mechs.
Using the same basic technology as the external hardpoints described
later for aircraft units—but mounted internally to protect the reserves of
volatile chemicals or fuels—extended fuel tanks (available for ICEs and
fuel cell engines) vastly improve the basic operating range of a typical
IndustrialMech, depending on how much space and mass is devoted to
them. In the case of most internal combustion engines, a single tank weighing
one tenth as much as the engine itself can add about 600 kilometers’
worth of mobility to the beast, doubling its eff ective range. Matching such
capabilities point by point, fuel cell-powered IndustrialMechs gain about
450 extra kilometers for the equivalent ratio of added tanks, which also
eff ectively doubles their stamina in the fi eld.

EXTENDED INDUSTRIALMECH FUEL TANKS
Tech Base: Inner Sphere and Clan
Unit Restrictions: Only IndustrialMechs may install extended IndustrialMech fuel tanks.
Game Rules: Fuel has no impact in Total Warfare game play. Extended fuel tanks will be covered in Tactical Operations. Filled or partially fi lled fuel
tanks are treated as ammo bins in combat, and will explode for 20 points if they suff er a critical hit (regardless of whether or not the ‘Mech is shut
down or the pilot is conscious).
Construction Rules: Only IndustrialMechs with ICEs or Fuel Cell engines may use extended fuel tanks. The weight of extended fuel tanks
depends on the desired range (in kilometers) the designers wishes to add over the IndustrialMech’s default fuel capacity (as described under the
Install Engine rules for IndustrialMechs, p. 167). For each additional 600 kilometers of operating range for ICEs, or each 450 kilometers of range
for Fuel Cell engines (or fractions thereof), additional fuel tanks weigh 10 percent of the IndustrialMech’s engine weight. This tonnage is rounded
up to the nearest half ton.
The amount of critical space occupied by additional IndustrialMech fuel tanks is equal to the tonnage of additional fuel tanks (rounded up). These
critical spaces must be located in the IndustrialMech’s Torso locations.
------

Industrial Combustion Engines Page 215
INDUSTRIAL COMBUSTION ENGINES
Introduced: Pre-spacefl ight
Another industrial analogue to today’s combat engine—and again
utilized today almost exclusively by IndustrialMechs—are industrialgrade
ICEs and fuel cell engines. Not terribly diff erent from their military
varieties (though fuel cell engines lost popularity as a battlefi eld power
source before the age of the BattleMech), today’s IndustrialMech fuel
burners can match the effi ciency of a BattleMech plant with little more
than a signifi cant increase in weight and the addition of supplemental
fuel stores. Granted, their applications vary a bit, with fuel cell engines
adaptable to submerged or vacuum environments versus cheaper fossil
fuel burners, but today, various laws, centuries of design tradition and
the military drive to place the best power sources in the most deserving
equipment has relegated these engines to IndustrialMech use

----------

But yeah, basically it seems... If you have an ICE, don't track heat. Will have to check TacOps and Total Warfare, but the consensus between the descriptions, construction of vehicles with energy weapons and ICE...of 21 vehicles with ICE and energy weapons I have checked, all 21 have no heatsinks.

I'd think they would, my experience with Fuel Cell engines basically told me as much, but Fuel Cell gives you a free heatsink regardless, and it spikes with heat despite having to use power amplifiers. ICE.. I'm not even given the option to add heatsinks, it gets greyed out.

Edited by Koniving, 25 October 2018 - 10:36 AM.

[Koniving]

Meanwhile, part of the base weight for all weapon systems is their own native cooling system, which has been part of the lore since as early as 1987 if not earlier.

Note "magnetic coils, generators and cooling units constitute well over half of the PPC's 7 tons."

In general every weapon system (unless stated to not have it) has its own cooling jacket and/or systems in addition to the heatsinks you need for your engine. Except the ICE doesn't require external heat pumps, apparently, and doesn't require tracking the heat. The only heat comes from the weapons...and it goes away at the weapons and their on board cooling systems.

[Koniving]

In overall conclusion..
Heatsinks seem to be for use with the engine, to cool the engine from heat spikes when the additional heat is necessary to power the weapons. Fusion and Fission engines do this on their own. Fuel Cell engines require power amplifiers, but still spike heat when the additional draw comes using the energy weapons. (Contrary to my past belief, because of power amplifiers the use of weapons doesn't consume fuel faster, though I think it should.) Fusion, Fission, and Fuel Cell engines pump out quite a bit of waste heat in order to get the reactions necessary for energy.

ICE engines use power amplifiers for energy weapons, but the engine doesn't spike heat to pump out that power, the amplifiers supply the spiked output while the engine runs normal to resupply the amplifiers. As such since the engine doesn't spike any heat that isn't taken care of with its own on board setup I don't think this means its immune to issues. But far as basic tabletop it doesn't have any worth noting or tracking, apparently. Since the engine doesn't spike heat, there's no need for heatsinks, the weapons' on board cooling setups are enough to cool them.

This is what the evidence seems to be telling me.

Spoiler

Which kinda puts a damper in my three stage cooling system concept for a more advanced, lore friendly BT/MW simulator, as that does factor weapon heat/overheat, cooling, etc., but assumes that the heat the heatsinks cool is from both the weapon and the engine. Then again the effects of Poor Cooling Jacket, Improved cooling jacket, No cooling jacket, etc... does entail that heatsinks can help cool weapons (and vice versa, weapons can help the heatsinks cool the engine from the spike the weapon would have created).

Edited by Koniving, 25 October 2018 - 11:32 AM.

[Throe]

[delete by user]

Edited by Throe, 08 November 2018 - 03:36 PM.